Who to blame for Finrod's death

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Who to blame for Finrod's death

Post by halplm »

I've been making my way through the Sil again... it's been a long time since I have.

I'm currently just reading about Beren starting his quest, and as I was discussing it with someone else, they said they couldn't stand Beren, and blamed him for Finrod dying.

I don't think this is fair, as Thingol set the quest, and Curifin and what's his name turned Finrod's people against him, so he had to go basically alone. Not to mention Fëanor's stupid oath to begin with, and going back all the way to Morgoth taking the silmarils in the first place ;).

So who gets the blame? Was this a good way for Finrod to go out? Was he deserving of a better death? Is this even an important angle to the story? ;)
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Yes, I think that Beren is very low on the list of people that are to blame for Finrod's death!

In a sense, Finrod is the most to 'blame' for his own death. He foresaw that he would need to be free from committments in order to fulfill an oath, which he then made to Barahir, Beren's father. By doing so, and then proceeding to fulfill the oath knowing that it would lead to his own death, he becomes almost the anti-Fëanor. He is almost sanctified in death.

But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar

I have much more to say about this, but no time now. But yes, I think this is a very important part of the story.
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Post by axordil »

The person who is solely responsible for the death of Finrod is the author. :)

I say this to remind everyone that causality in fiction is not the same thing as causality in real life. It has to LOOK the same, but it rarely acts the same.

That said, I don't believe it was JRRT's intent to make us think less of Beren because Finrod chose to sacrifice himself for him. It was, from the beginning, Finrod's choice, or rather, Finrod's understanding of his fate.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

One could say that Ilúvatar was responsible for Finrod's death, since it was pre-ordained in the Music.

But that would anger a certain nifty Irishman, so I won't go there. ;)
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Post by Alatar »

:rage:
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

:hug:
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Post by MithLuin »

Fate and free will are intertwined - get over it already!

:P 8) :hug:

Anyway.

Finrod chose to follow Fëanor to Middle Earth in the first place. His father returned to Valinor, but he (and his brothers and sister) did not. He was the one who brought a lot of "stuff" from Valinor...so he was probably a bit ambivalent about it.

After arriving...well, he chose to maintain his friendships with Fingon and Maedhros, and with Turgon, he took Ulmo's counsel. So, he was 'set up' in Nargothrond, but that is nobody's fault, per se.

Then, when Galadriel started nagging him about being single, he made the pronouncement about needing to remain free, because of an oath he would make. That statement was foresight, but it also meant he would accept that choice.

Barahir saved his life, so without Barahir, he would have died earlier. He made that oath, perhaps knowing that it would be the very one to lead to his death.

None of that history can be forgotten when you consider the Tale of Tinúviel.

Thingol set the task, but when Beren came to Nargothrond, he met secretly with Finrod (well, behind closed doors). Finrod predicted that the sons of Fëanor would cause trouble, but he still chose to publically proclaim his plan to his people. He could have forsworn his oath in private, or promised Beren secret aid (not amounting to he himself going on the quest).

Making his intentions public was thus his own very concious choice - he knew what the ramifications would be, and he went through with it anyway, leaving with only a small band to assail Thangorodrim :shock: It was not a suicide mission, but surely those who marched out of the gate of Nargothond expected never to return.

They made it as far as Minas Tirith on Tol Sirion, his own fortress, lost to Sauron by Orodreth (have we blamed him yet?)

And then they were captured by Sauron. And imprisoned. And killed.

I'd say the guilt rests squarely on Sauron's shoulders. He is the one who killed Finrod. In fact, he really killed all of Finrod's companions, and then Finrod sacrificed himself to save Beren at the last.

To take one step back, we could say that Finrod would not have died if Lúthien and Huan had rescued Beren earlier. We don't know the exact timeline, but it was probably a matter of days, and maybe even hours. Thus, any delay on Lúthien's rescue attempt also contributed directly to Finrod's death.

Who to blame for that? Thingol (for imprisoning her in Hirilorn), and one step removed, Daeron for blabbing. But this still would not have cost Finrod his life, if Celegorm and Curufin had not imprisoned Lúthien and held her hostage. So....definately blame them for the delay!

But wait....the only way Lúthien could defeat Sauron, Lord of Werewolves, was with the help of Huan, loyal servant of the Fëanorions. No C/C, no Huan. So perhaps the only way she could mount her rescue attempt successfully was in the way that she did.


So, if we're looking to cast blame, Finrod has much personal responsibility at stake - part of why we :love: for him is because he is so noble and self-sacrificing. He had chances to turn aside, only he didn't. He chose to be teh!coolest!elf!ever!, at the expense of even his own life. The cause of his death was the wolf, sent by Sauron. So, guilty party number one: Sauron. The biggest hinderance to Lúthien was C&C, so Celegorm and Curufin get second place. Thingol has much responsibility in the whole thing, though very little guilt - the only death he intended to cause was Beren's.
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Post by halplm »

Excellent post, MIthluin...

Don't see what else there is to say ;)
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Post by Old_Tom_Bombadil »

Why is this question so difficult? Blame Sauron! He's the one who imprisoned Finrod, then sent his big bad werewolf in to do the dirty deed.
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Post by Sassafras »

Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:One could say that Ilúvatar was responsible for Finrod's death, since it was pre-ordained in the Music.

But that would anger a certain nifty Irishman, so I won't go there. ;)
That's as may be, but it will please a certain curmudgeonly Englishwoman, so I think you should go there.

=:)
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Ever mindful of the maxim that brevity is the soul of wit, axordil sums up the Sil:


"Too many Fingolfins, not enough Sams."

Yes.
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Post by Old_Tom_Bombadil »

...Although, if Beren had not proudfully accepted Thingol's fool's quest to capture a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown, and put Finrod in the awkward position of either breaking the oath he swore to Barahir or accepting a suicide mission to Thangorodrim...
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Post by axordil »

'Twas Beauty killed the Beast.

Wait, wrong story. :D

Or is it? If Lúthien hadn't been so doggone cute, Beren wouldn't have had to roll his tongue back in, and things would have been very different indeed!
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Post by Old_Tom_Bombadil »

...and if Thingol had not been such a hot-head, but had instead sought council from his wife Melian as he ought...
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Post by Athrabeth »

axordil wrote:The person who is solely responsible for the death of Finrod is the author. :)

I say this to remind everyone that causality in fiction is not the same thing as causality in real life. It has to LOOK the same, but it rarely acts the same.
:agree:

The fall of Finrod, I think, fits perfectly as the completion to the "theme" Tolkien contrived for him within the Sil and the Athrabeth. Although there is no doubt that he is as powerful a warrior as any Lord of the Eldar, it is not this prowess that will become his legacy within the writings of the First Age, but rather the power of his words -- in debate, in counsel, and in song. In his father Finarfin's stead among the exiles in Middle-earth, he becomes the epitome of Elvish wisdom, compassion, and understanding - the perfect blend of the Noldorin mind and Vanyarin heart. "Perfect".....I think Felagund comes as close to that as any character Tolkien created, but he is still chained to the karmic workings of the Curse of Mandos, and it is by the treacherous acts at Alqualondë that he is betrayed.

It is so fitting that Finrod's great battle with Sauron is a battle of words within song:

Backwards and forwards swayed their song.
Reeling and foundering, as ever more strong
The chanting swelled, Felagund fought,
And all the magic and might he brought
Of Elvenesse into his words.
Softly in the gloom they heard the birds
Singing afar in Nargothrond,
The sighing of the Sea beyond,
Beyond the western world, on sand,
On sand of pearls in Elvenland.
Then the gloom gathered; darkness growing
In Valinor, the red blood flowing
Beside the Sea, where the Noldor slew
The Foamriders, and stealing drew
Their white ships with their white sails
From lamplit havens. The wind wails,
The wolf howls. The ravens flee.
The ice mutters in the mouths of the Sea.
The captives sad in Angband mourn.
Thunder rumbles, the fires burn -
And Finrod fell before the throne.


:cry:

It is the unspeakable treachery of the Kinslaying that in the end usurps Finrod's words of hope and beauty, freedom and trust. Nothing, not even the true goodness and nobility of Felagund, can cover over or erase or negate or ease the bitter truth of that horrific event. Knowing this, Finrod leaves his people and fulfills his promise to Barahir; knowing this, he strives against Sauron. And unlike Fëanor, who ends in fiery madness, or Fingolfin, who ends in a spectacular show of vengeful wrath, or Fingon, who ends in brutal, bleak combat, Finrod ends in a selfless act to save one, "small" man. His death ensures, ultimately, the recovery of the Silmaril, as well as beginnings of "the line of Lúthien" which will "never fail", as Aragorn tells us in LOTR. Finrod must be "undone" by the Curse of Mandos so that this great hope for the world can remain, and he must trade his life for Beren's so that he can be freed from the chain that has bound him for so long. Personal redemption could not be won for any less price in Tolkien's world.

Voronwë said that Finrod becomes "almost sanctified in death", and I very much agree with this. Of Fingolfin's and Fingon's "afterlives" in the long ages of Arda, we hear nothing, but we are told, and pointedly so, about the differing fates of Fëanor and Finrod. It's almost as if Tolkien gives his character this special blessing....to walk, fair and immortal in our minds, long after the tale is ended and the book is closed.
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Post by Old_Tom_Bombadil »

...but when it comes right down to it, I think the person we ought to blame is Holby. :D
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Post by Alatar »

You raise an interesting point Ath. In that duel between Sauron and Finrod, they chant for the mastery, but what exactly do they chant? It says that Finrod put "all the magic and might... of Elveness" into his words. But what were those words? Did Finrod challenge Sauron with the Beauty of the Elves, and if so are we to believe that he was defeated by Saurons "trump card" of the Kinslaying? I've never really read it that way, but (if I read your intention right) that seems to be what you're suggesting. Its an interesting concept and one I personally like, but I wonder if thats what Tolkien was getting at.

Was he suggesting that Finrods power of song was defeated by the external acts of other Elves? Seems like a strange construct.
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Post by halplm »

Well, if we're going to blame anyone, I'd like to blame Celegorm and Curufin, as they were just plain brutal during the whole story.

I'm not sure what to make of Finrod in the grand scheme of thigns, but to this point in the history, he is clearly being put forth by Tolkien as someone that has not lost the nobility of the Noldor. In fact, of all the elves. At this point it seems everyone is for themselves, or hiding, or not helping others...

Yes, they claim to have a universal enemy in Morgoth, but he's managed to turn them all against each other nearly universally.

Finrod is an example of everything that the elves should be... even though he is tied up in the doom of Mandos, he sacrifices all he can to do what he things is right... cool guy.
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Post by Athrabeth »

Alatar wrote:You raise an interesting point Ath. In that duel between Sauron and Finrod, they chant for the mastery, but what exactly do they chant? It says that Finrod put "all the magic and might... of Elveness" into his words. But what were those words? Did Finrod challenge Sauron with the Beauty of the Elves, and if so are we to believe that he was defeated by Saurons "trump card" of the Kinslaying? I've never really read it that way, but (if I read your intention right) that seems to be what you're suggesting. Its an interesting concept and one I personally like, but I wonder if thats what Tolkien was getting at.

Was he suggesting that Finrods power of song was defeated by the external acts of other Elves? Seems like a strange construct.
I've always interpreted the contest between Sauron and Finrod as one in which the words themselves are wielded as weapons and armour, so to speak. It seems to start out as a battle of conceptual, or even psychological forces, with Finrod countering Sauron's attempts to strip him of his Orc disguise through words that would "pierce" and "open" and "reveal", with defensive words of "resistance", "elusiveness" and "escape".

But in a final attempt to resist Sauron's relentless attack, Finrod takes his song, somehow, through time and space back to Valinor to draw upon the pureness and power of the Blessed Realm. For me, this seems to "fit" with other examples within both the Sil and LOTR, where Tolkien alludes to the reader that Elvish song actually has the power to create some kind of spiritual-physical transformation.....a "channel" through which memory/desire/thought can be conjured into a kind of reality, as in Frodo's experience in the Hall of Fire, or Lúthien's ability to break the walls of Sauron's fortress.

But it is a double-edged sword that Finrod wields, for once that channel back to Elvenesse is established, it opens the potential for all its hidden memories to be unlocked, and the shadow of the Kinslaying overtakes his song and strips him of his defenses against Sauron, who of course, uses this to his advantage.

Well......that's how I see it anyway. 8)

I wish I had time to be a bit more detailed, but I'm already late for an appointment, and have to go now.

Until later? :)
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Alatar wrote:Did Finrod challenge Sauron with the Beauty of the Elves, and if so are we to believe that he was defeated by Saurons "trump card" of the Kinslaying? I've never really read it that way, but (if I read your intention right) that seems to be what you're suggesting. Its an interesting concept and one I personally like, but I wonder if thats what Tolkien was getting at.
I'm not sure what else he could have been getting at, Al. Otherwise, why else refer to the Kinslaying in the battle of the songs?

I want to thank Guy Kay for suggesting that those verses (which come directly from the Lay of Leithien and were not included in the Quenta by Tolkien, be added in here. That is the one specific contribution of Kay's that Christopher refers to in all of the HOME.

Cross-posted with Ath.
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Post by Alatar »

It just strikes me as a little, well, literal?

IF thats why the Kinslaying is mentioned, what's the howling wolf, or the fleeing raven? Are the "captives sad in Angband" mourning the failure of Finrod, or are they part of Saurons song?


Its just not that cut and dried to me. I like the idea, but I don't necessarily believe its what Tolkien intended.
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