Gender Generalizations

[Aravar]

[Note: I split this topic out of the thread on Borat. If the discussion continues, please keep in mind that it is a potentially touchy subject.]

(Rhetorical question. That seems to be the male response. And I don't mean any offense, I'm thinking of my husband here.)

And that, of course, is inoffensive.

[Cerin]

Defensiveness when criticized seems to a common male response, based on my experience with the men in my life. I don't mean offense to any men by saying that, including them. Perhaps they are unique in the world, and it is not a tendency among men to become defensive when criticized. I'll amend my post to reflect that.

[truehobbit]

(Rhetorical question. That seems to be the male response. And I don't mean any offense, I'm thinking of my husband here.)

And that, of course, is inoffensive.

Very few men I know have the word "sorry" in their vocabulary. I think Cerin has a point (even though it would have been more diplomatic if she hadn't made it ). And that is merely speaking from experience with male interlocutors in discussion.

[nerdanel]

Very few men I know have the word "sorry" in their vocabulary. I think Cerin has a point (even though it would have been more diplomatic if she hadn't made it ). And that is merely speaking from experience with male interlocutors in discussion.

Okay, now I have to say something. If I read the past page, substitute "women" for "men," and substitute male posters for female posters, I would be extremely disappointed to see sweeping generalizations (and later edits, which really do not change the substance of the generalization at all) made about my gender's capacity to acknowledge mistakes and apologize, based on a (perceived) failure of one woman to do so, combined with anecdotal references to other women who have shared the perceived weakness. I am no less disappointed to see women do the same to men.

Misha stated in LBL, "I wish I could live to see a day when humankind would cease its determination to make judgments based on the externalities we exhibit." For me that includes gender. If several people who happen to be men refuse to apologize when they are wrong, then let them be accountable for their failure as individuals alone.

FWIW, many of my male friends (including some on this board and many more IRL) are exceptionally good at recognizing when they are in the wrong and apologizing. Some of them are my role models for this very trait. And, defensiveness in response to criticism is a common human response, one shared by all too many women.

My first reaction was not to post and further exacerbate (1) something that should have already blown over and (2) my well-established reputation for oversensitivity on gender issues. However, you all know me; I would have felt compelled to post if a similar comment was made about women, so I feel that not to post in response to this generalization (which in my view is just as wrong to make) would be hypocritical.

[truehobbit]

In that case I can only congratulate you on different experience, nel!

But it is a feature of the human mind to generalise, i.e. to formulate rules from repeated findings - and to ask that this should stop is like asking us to stop using food for nourishment - it is the way that humans work, because without that our mind would not be able to sort the information it is confronted with. So, I can only ask you to accept the generalisations I draw from my experience as I accept those you draw from your experience.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'm sorry, Cerin and hobby, but I really have to agree with nel here. I think that generalizations of this nature are unhelpful and often misleading. I have known both men and women on different points of the "defensiveness" and "ability to apologize and acknowledge mistakes" spectrum. I think that individuals have to be judged based on their own merits and foibles, if at all.

[truehobbit]

That's no problem, Voronwë - we can agree to disagree.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

[Primula Baggins]

My experience varies from yours, too, hobby. I have certainly known people who seem unable to apologize, and most of them have been men—but the men I've known best do know how to say "I'm sorry."

[vison]

Every single husband I've had finds it nearly impossible to either say "Sorry" or "I made a mistake".

Oh, wait. I've only had one husband.

Rats.

Well, it's true, just the same.

However, after 41 years of marriage I can recognize his non-verbal apologies and admissions of error!

I, on the other hand, IF I ever was wrong or IF I ever made a mistake? I'm sure I'd have no trouble apologizing, or admitting it.

Pretty sure, anyway.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

If anything, I say I'm sorry too much.

And now I'm going to say that I'm sorry, but I'm going to split this little osgiliation out of this thread.

[Lurker]

This reminds me of the best advice I gave to all my male friends esp. those who are married. Take note, this works all the time.

When I wake up in the morning, I tell Princess, I'm sorry. She goes for what? I go "I just wanna say I'm sorry." She goes "What did you do?" I go, "Nothing." Fast forward two hours later ---> So let's say I'm too tired today and I left my soaking with sweat t-shirt on the dining room chair again. Princess goes "How many times do I have to tell you, hang it in the washroom!" I go, "Now, now, you shouldn't be upset with me I've already said "I'm sorry" and that is for all the things I'll be doing wrong today." When she gets upset later on again, I go "Stop right there, I already apologized for that one, too." Drives her nuts, I tell you!

I say sorry too often as well, I guess because I'm Canadian. I can't help it. I say sorry even if it's the other guy's fault.

[Frelga]

This reminds me of the best advice I gave to all my male friends esp. those who are married. Take note, this works all the time.

When I wake up in the morning, I tell Princess, I'm sorry. She goes for what? I go "I just wanna say I'm sorry." She goes "What did you do?" I go, "Nothing." Fast forward two hours later ---> So let's say I'm too tired today and I left my soaking with sweat t-shirt on the dining room chair again. Princess goes "How many times do I have to tell you, hang it in the washroom!" I go, "Now, now, you shouldn't be upset with me I've already said "I'm sorry" and that is for all the things I'll be doing wrong today." When she gets upset later on again, I go "Stop right there, I already apologized for that one, too." Drives her nuts, I tell you!

She's no Princess, she's an angel!

I'm with nel here. Generalizations of this kinds are really not helpful when dealing one-on-one with any random individual who may exibit a behaviour from any point on the wide spectrum.

If the cultural expectation is that males don't apologize, then you get two consequences: a) males really don't apologize for fear of being seen unmanly and b) when men DO apologize, their behaviour is dismissed as not typical while any behaviour that reinforces the stereotype is accepted as evidence that the stereotype is correct.

Now what happened here is a fairly benign example, but I've seen this pattern at work. In a similar way, people spouted anti-Semitic nonsense to me, knowing full well that I was Jewish. And when I went "Um. Hello? Are you saying this about me?" they responded with "Oh, you, you are different." Which was supposed to make everything better.

In my experience, it is more productive to take people as you find them, instead of trying to fit them into a prefabricated pattern of expectations. It is also helpful to communicate clearly. It may take decades of marriage, but eventually the man in your life can learn when it is appropriate to apologize. And when he just needs to pick up the t-shirt, quietly.

[narya]

On the other hand, it helps to know that there are gender differences, in general, and that you shouldn't be expecting someone of the opposite sex to think the same way you do. If he does, great, but if he doesn't, if he's just thinking like a typical guy, I don't get upset because it's nothing personal, just the way his brain is wired. And I am really generalizing here, with the understanding that there is a male spectrum and a female spectrum, and the two overlap.

What helped me was Debra Tannen's book "He Said, She Said", which talks about the generalized differences between male and female conversation.

While I don't think it is right to sterotype others, at the same time, it is not right to treat them exactly as you want yourself to be treated. Because they aren't exactly you. When I meet someone for the first time, I size him up (male, Chinese, strong accent, 18 years old) and adapt my conversation to match the stereotype I start with. As the conversation progresses, I look for cues about possible difficulties: strong accent may mean he doesn't have an extensive English vocabulary so I'll repeat the concept with synonyms, 18 years old may mean he is inexperienced in the topic at hand so I may have to backpedal a little until it is clear he is following me, male may mean he has better spatial abilities than verbal and would prefer a drawing to a list of instructions, Chinese may mean that he will politely nod even if he disagrees, so I'll have to keep an eye on that. I happen to work with a group that's predominantly male, half Asian, over half immigrant, and of all ages. I know them now as individual, but I only survived the first month without social gaffs (that I know of) by being careful and watching out for possible differences in the way we communicated and acted, without being patronizing or closed-minded. Prejudice is pre-judging. When I go into a new situation, I do not make judgements, I make interim assessments, then adjust them as I get more data.

[Alatar]

Well, since the original comment was directed at me I'm choosing to respond here.

Anybody who know me from these boards, on in RL, knows that I am not a contentious person. Like most, I have had occasional run ins with people but I'm hardly a troublemaker. In fact I have given a lot of time and effort to this board and worked closely with Whistler on the board theme. I have no axe to grind.

Whenever I have had an issue with the board I have brought it privately to one of the Thains rather than generate hassle. In fact, the charge most often levelled against me is that I'm hopeless optimist/idealist and would like to see everyone get along.

I also am invariably the first to apologise in any argument. I prefer to keep the peace at all costs, sometimes to my detriment. However, I WILL NOT apologise for something I did not do. That is a simple point of principle. I did not insult Whistler, and I will not apologise for his taking offense.

SHIRRIFF NOTE: two sentences were edited from this post. The poster did not agree to the edit and asked that a note be placed in the post. Jn

[axordil]

Gender is odd.

It's partly biological and partly a cultural construction, although I would hesitate to apportion the influences. The result is that often what appears within the bounds of one culture to be a gender-linked behavior is really a cultural behavior...but not always. At the same time, neither gender nor culture are 100% indicators of how individuals will behave, either on the whole or in specific contexts; they are trends at best, often dodgy ones.

My own experience is that different cultures have different "accepted" models of conflict resolution, and that some of those are differentiated by gender...but some are not. Moreover, some people, for whatever reason, find the accepted model within their culture non-ideal. Thus, it is less than useful to attempt to predict behavior based on anything other than past behavior of the individual in question.

And even that's chancy. But you have to start somewhere.

[Cerin]

The male brain develops differently in the womb than the female brain (or you can reverse that if you find it prejudicial), and subsequently functions differently as a result.

It is logical to assume that the differences in male and female brain function manifest in various tendencies of both men and women to respond in different ways; in fact it would be illogical to assume that they did not, and even more illogical to deny that they did not if it had been observed that they do. I find it unfortunate and not a little bizarre that people believe it is somehow detrimental or incorrect to observe this. In what other areas and for what reasons do we deliberately ignore science that might give a better understanding of how things work?

Need it be said that observing there are behavioral manifestations of the different way men's and women's brains function is not equivalent to asserting that all men behave the same way, and all women behave the same way in any given circumstance? It shouldn't be, but I'll carify just in case. My comment wasn't meant to be an assertion that all men behave the same way in any given circumstance, and/or that all women behave the same way in any given circumstance.

Yes, there have been and no doubt will continue to be hideous consequences of the differences between the genders. Personally, I don't think the solution is to pretend that gender, and gender differences don't exist. That's what it seems to me some people here are advocating. I stress the fact that this is what those comments seem to me to convey. It may well be that I have misunderstood the import of those comments.

It may take decades of marriage, but eventually the man in your life can learn when it is appropriate to apologize.

Frelga, you said this at the end of your post about generalizations not being helpful. I'm not sure if you were deliberately being funny here, or if you were inadvertently illustrating that you also believe men tend to have trouble with apologizing.

This leads me to ask again, generally, what would be the reasons for maintaining the position that we don't believe something we really do believe?

On the other hand, it helps to know that there are gender differences, in general, and that you shouldn't be expecting someone of the opposite sex to think the same way you do. If he does, great, but if he doesn't, if he's just thinking like a typical guy, I don't get upset because it's nothing personal, just the way his brain is wired. And I am really generalizing here, with the understanding that there is a male spectrum and a female spectrum, and the two overlap.

Exactly.


edited to remove unhelpful comment

[axordil]

The male brain develops differently in the womb than the female brain (or you can reverse that if you find it prejudicial), and subsequently functions differently as a result.

This is far from a settled question. There is hardly a topic in neurology and neuropsychology more controversial (nor more ideologically charged) at the moment, so it is premature to make such a sweeping claim.

That said, I don't think anyone would dispute that there are biological differences in men and women that may affect how they think. Will affect...that's a different question, and part of the larger unsettled issue. It is EXCEEDINGLY difficult to cull out cultural issues from the question, as by the time someone is capable of exhibiting full cognition, they are also fully immersed in their particular culture.

Anecdotally speaking, I have known enough women who have been JUST as defensive in reaction to confrontation as any man, both in RL and online, as to make the generalization meaningless for me.

[yovargas]

If one were to go with the stereotype, it is women who never apologize because they (always think they) are always right. Another thing to add to the stack of dumb stereotypes.

[Cerin]

I didn't realize it was an unsettled question, Ax.