Artie's Quest for Democracy

[Jnyusa]

Some of our members saw artie's introducton in the Welcome thread, and a large number have received PM's from him and wondered what that was about, so I thought I'd better start a thread where everyone can see it and explain who artie is and why he is going about his quest this way.

I'm a member at TAZ, a board for administrators to consult on the problems of administration (software mostly), and I made a passing comment about belonging to a board where we were experimenting in internet democracy. artie saw this, and it coincided with his interest, so he contacted me and we spoke together by email for a couple weeks.

Meanwhile he did his 'homework' and has been reading through the Historical threads on B77, and contacting charter committee members, Rangers/Shirriffs, and all members who watched the process from the board to interview them regarding their opinions as to how a democratic process works in a messageboard setting.

We've been encouraging artie to start a thread, either here or on B77, but he doesn't want the conversation to have the character of a debate and feels that interviewing individuals will serve him better. As far as I know, all his requests have been polite, but I am aware that people were wondering what these PM's are really about.

They are about exactly what they appear to be about. artie would like to collect impressions from people who belong to a board that is democratic in practice and not just in theory.

If anyone does not want to receive PM's about this, you can state so here and artie will not contact you. If you have something about internet democracy that you feel compelled to say, but don't want to enter into a PM discussion about it with a stranger, you can also use this thread to post your comments. You can answer artie's PM in this thread if you prefer to do it that way.

What I told artie when we first talked about him joining both boards and asking people to relate their experiences, I explained to him that we would not use HoF to discuss the relative successes or failures of B77 because our Marshalls here have a policy of not participating in discussions about other messageboards. It would be better if any public discussion took place on B77, where the experiment actually took place and all or most of us remain members. artie appreciates this constraint, and is really not asking for personal information about the two boards but about the mechanics of both systems - selection of admins, etc. That has been the gist of all conversations I've had with him so far.

But as he has been interviewing people on both boards, and posters have been asking what the PM's are about, I thought it a good idea to put up a thread where people can ... ask questions about what artie is doing, or opt out of the interview, or make neutral comments about their experience with different administrative systems if they wish to do so.

It goes without saying (I hope) that this is not an invitation to rehash all our history together in an HoF thread.

Jn

[artie]

Hello I'm Artie.

I came here for the purpose that Jnyusa stated above. Many of you have recieved a PM from me requesting help in understanding the Historical Threads at B77.

I think I stated my objective very clearly.

I did not come here for Tolkein although you might want to think of me as a hobbit living underground in my cozy PM box.

I welcome closed discussions on the development of B77 and anything related to it.

I don't think it would be productive to discuss with you in open threads because of the sensitive nature of the topic. I have my own objective which is to make democracy work and I think that the best way to communicate with people here about your experiences is through the PM system.

I think this for several reasons. A person can have greater control through the PM process. You can be as free as you like with your interpretations. And so can I. I want to reproduce a traditional environment in my communications. I do not believe that the open message board is conducive to productive communication.

Anyway, if this thread becomes a discussion concerning the development of B77 I will not respond to anything posted but by private message.

I want to engage in free dialogue through a closed system.

Besides, this is a research endeavor. I have no qualifications to respond to your posts without first completing my research. that may take several months. And I don't want to put this community through several months of problems. And certainly, no one is under any obligation to discuss with me.

So if you are interested in conversing with me and helping me through the material I would greatly appreciate that. I hope that this might be a very rewarding experience. I've already learned a bunch in the past week. So many of the discussions are chockful of words of wisdom and you cover everything anybody could ever think of about community development. (or maybe almost everything )

artie

[Alatar]

Artie,

I have no interest in discussing this privately. If you with to engage me on this issue either here or on B77 I will only do so publicly.

Alatar

[baby tuckoo]

I wasn't born yet when these formative events occurred, but I think we should all get along, so long as Mommy's in charge. She's warmest and softest and nicenest, though I like uncle Alatar too.

Auntie Prim is funny, except when she gets mad. Mostly she's funny.

[Túrin Turambar]

I'm with Alatar - I don't really have the time and inclination to engage in a PM exchange, but I will post in this thread if required.

[artie]

OK.

You guys start discussing.

I am going to do a 3 month study of B77.

This study is primarily for my ownself.

I will discuss my findings with anyone who PM's me.

If the members cooperate with me I'll discuss it publicly in 3 months.

If not, I will pack up what I learn and leave.

[yovargas]

Shouldn't this thread be in b77?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Indeed. In fact, in the opening post of this thread, Jn wrote:

It would be better if any public discussion took place on B77, where the experiment actually took place and all or most of us remain members.

Artie, I don't think any of us here are interested in rehashing ancient history. If you want to discuss general principles of internet democracy, that can be done here, as long as our policies are respected. If you want to discuss the in and outs of the history of democracy at board77 (which remains the only democratically governed messageboard that I am aware of), that should take place there.

[artie]

I don't understand what you are saying.

I didn't start this thread.

I said I don't want to discuss this in public.

You all started this and said you wanted to discuss it in the open.

Discuss it. Here or at B77.

I am conducting my own private investigation.

If people want to help me with it privately I welcome them to that opportunity.

After 3 months if you want my objective viewpoint I'll give it.

If not, I'm on my way.

The B77 project was a definite step in the right direction and I intend to salvage from it what I can and communicate it to others who are committed to the democracy movement.

I can be reached via Pm until Dec. 20

artie

[Jnyusa]

Yes, that's ok artie.

Yov, the thread is here because artie was PMing people on this board as well as B77, and we were getting questions what that was about.

If the Rangers on B77 want to put up a thread for the same purpose, they can do so, of course. But since so many of our members read both boards, probably everybody knows by now what the PM's are about and the questions being sent to Alatar have died down as well.

If artie were willing to ask his interview questions in an open thread, then we would definitely do it at B77 rather than here.

Jn

[axordil]

Here's the long and the short of it: IMO, a democratic board only works for groups who are small, focused, and homogenous enough for it to be unnecessary.

[Primula Baggins]

Ax's Axiom.

In a more idealistic mood I might disagree. If asked to present evidence to back up my point, however, I would go hide.

[halplm]

the problem with democracy (true democracy), is that in the end, you spend so much time deciding HOW to decide things... nothing gets decided... This compounded on the internet, because things take longer anyway...

[elfshadow]

I would say that any democracy, regardless of size, can work if every person wants it to work and helps it to work.

[yovargas]

elsha said it before I did. (Though I wouldn't say every person.)

[halplm]

except when two people want it to work, and try to help it to work, and disagree completely on how to help...

it can still work... it just uglier.

[axordil]

As hal implies, it is impossible to consider the idea of democracy without the actual practice. Compare and contrast the Constitution of the US, a fairly tidy document, with even an early Federal Code, or Procedures for the House or Senate.

[JewelSong]

I really, really, really wish this discussion (if there is going to be one) would take place on B77 and this thread locked.

[axordil]

I disagree.

[Jnyusa]

What I said to artie when we were talking by email was that, imho, all governance systems rely entirely upon voluntary compliance. Even tyrannies.

What good would it do us here on HoF if Voronwë and I and the other Marshalls said that things are going to be thus and so, and insisted on it, but no one agreed with us? No matter that we have the admin panels and could ban anyone we wanted - that would only accomplish to destroy the board in the end.

Same thing in the real world, and the example I used for artie was traffic lights. They only work because the majority of people acknowledge that it's in their best interest to obey them. If everyone decided not to do that, we would need to have a cop following every single driver, and that would be the end of the society, the ruin of the society. (There have been countries where we did see society descend into conditions like that.)

We don't hold votes on HoF or rotate our admins through the whole membership, but we still govern by the consent of our posters in a very real sense, and we've already had a couple object lessons in that.

There is in fact no other way to govern and also last, in my opinion.

I was watching on TV last night a Wide Angle report on the July elections in Congo. It was produced in UK I believe, and it was absolutely fascinating. Some of it was really sad, because one of the militias was threatening people with death if they voted, but part of it was really funny and I actually laughed out loud. They are trying to build a culture of democracy and are completely preoccupied with the form that this will take. I think that all fledgling democracies must begin that way, because no one knows how the form is going to fit the function in reality, and they try to second-guess all possible outcomes in advance.

So they ended up with this HUGE 4-page ballot on giant-sized paper, where the picture of every candidate was shown because so many people are illiterate, and the ballot box then had to be REALLY BIG AND TALL to hold the ballots, and you saw voters lifting these cartoon-size ballots over their heads and trying to get them to go into the slot in these tall ballot boxes ... and then all those ballots have to be counted by hand and they were so unweildy.

It's not so simple to come up with practical, workable democratic forms, but I am convinced that the essence of every successful society is self-government because people simply do not acquiesce to have their will contravened, and a government that does not acknowledge this ends up with chaos on its hands.

Jn