See...I strongly believe that statements like hers are profoundly unhelpful. Chances are, the GOP will suffer politically due to their actions these past weeks. That's how the political process works! Why do Democrats and Republicans alike insist on making such dramatic remarks? Democrats called for impeaching Bush back when he was president (when he did nothing illegal). Now Republicans are saying that Obama should be assassinated and Democrats are saying that Republicans should be arrested for the shutdown? WHY is this at all useful?Sunsilver wrote:Sci-Fi/Fantasy novelist Elizabeth Moon, former Marine, and married to an M.D. feels the Republicans should be arrested for treason for blocking the democratic process. I actually sympathize with her, and certainly agree the shutdown is doing irreparable harm to the GOP's reputation.
Health Care Reform
"I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived." - HDT
elfshadow wrote:See...I strongly believe that statements like hers are profoundly unhelpful. Chances are, the GOP will suffer politically due to their actions these past weeks. That's how the political process works! Why do Democrats and Republicans alike insist on making such dramatic remarks? Democrats called for impeaching Bush back when he was president (when he did nothing illegal). Now Republicans are saying that Obama should be assassinated and Democrats are saying that Republicans should be arrested for the shutdown? WHY is this at all useful?Sunsilver wrote:Sci-Fi/Fantasy novelist Elizabeth Moon, former Marine, and married to an M.D. feels the Republicans should be arrested for treason for blocking the democratic process. I actually sympathize with her, and certainly agree the shutdown is doing irreparable harm to the GOP's reputation.
I wholeheartedly agree with every bit of this. Thank you, elsha
."What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
You know what? I'm actually fine with name calling although I feel it should be a free for all, or free for none. I mean, I'm saddened that not everyone can appreciate the brilliance that is Frelga, but we all have our limitations.halplm wrote:Well, now you're just being an... Well you know.
I am not fine with posts that don't back up their name calling with fact, figures, and logical conclusions. Actually, facts, etc., are fine even without name calling.
Insults without backup mean only one thing - I don't like what others are saying but for the life of me I can't explain why. Not something I can take seriously.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Griffon64 wrote:A little bit of levity on the shutdown:
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/atla ... ers-100913
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Word.Frelga wrote:You know what? I'm actually fine with name calling although I feel it should be a free for all, or free for none. I mean, I'm saddened that not everyone can appreciate the brilliance that is Frelga, but we all have our limitations.halplm wrote:Well, now you're just being an... Well you know.
I am not fine with posts that don't back up their name calling with fact, figures, and logical conclusions. Actually, facts, etc., are fine even without name calling.
Insults without backup mean only one thing - I don't like what others are saying but for the life of me I can't explain why. Not something I can take seriously.
When you can do nothing what can you do?
It's no surprise, I'm sure, that I also agree with this (and my twin). It's this level of vitriol and rhetoric that makes me insane when it comes to politics, and it's why I can't get into it or involved in it (beyond my basic civic duty).elfshadow wrote:
See...I strongly believe that statements like hers are profoundly unhelpful. Chances are, the GOP will suffer politically due to their actions these past weeks. That's how the political process works! Why do Democrats and Republicans alike insist on making such dramatic remarks? Democrats called for impeaching Bush back when he was president (when he did nothing illegal). Now Republicans are saying that Obama should be assassinated and Democrats are saying that Republicans should be arrested for the shutdown? WHY is this at all useful?
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Voronwë the Faithful
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And its probably no surprise that I also agree. I've made it clear that I feel that the actions of the GOP House members are misguided and dangerous, but that is a long way from calling it "treasonous". That kind of rhetoric just makes the situation worse and more intractable, in my opinion.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Primula Baggins
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If they honestly believe they're being true to the Constitution, and honestly believe that a debt limit breach is "no big deal," then any harm they do is not their fault, and they're not traitors. Just lethally ignorant.
I just wish they weren't driving the bus the rest of us are on.
And, delaying the ACA by a year is not a "small ask," not for millions of people. Another year with no insurance. Including me: mine ends December 31st because all the high-risk pool people are expected to be able to find coverage on the exchanges. If the ACA 2014 rules don't kick in, no one anywhere will insure any of us until they do kick in.
This doesn't worry me, because it's not going to happen. But it's frustrating to hear people talk about delay/defunding as if it we'd all be better off if it happened, when in fact millions of Americans would be much, much worse off.
I just wish they weren't driving the bus the rest of us are on.
And, delaying the ACA by a year is not a "small ask," not for millions of people. Another year with no insurance. Including me: mine ends December 31st because all the high-risk pool people are expected to be able to find coverage on the exchanges. If the ACA 2014 rules don't kick in, no one anywhere will insure any of us until they do kick in.
This doesn't worry me, because it's not going to happen. But it's frustrating to hear people talk about delay/defunding as if it we'd all be better off if it happened, when in fact millions of Americans would be much, much worse off.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
Very well said Frelga.
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I did see somewhere some group suggesting prosecution for seditious conspiracy (18 U.S.C. § 2384):
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I did see somewhere some group suggesting prosecution for seditious conspiracy (18 U.S.C. § 2384):
... and to my uneducated-regarding-Constitutional-law eyes, it does seem to sorta fit.. but this just isn't ever going to happen nor will trying to do so do any good whatsoever.If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.
*"force" in this case is the refusal to fund the government for the purpose of hindering the execution of the Affordable Care Act.
I think 'treason' is a reasonable characterization of a willful attempt to undermine the democratic process and the functioning and solvency of the United States Government in violation of oaths of office to uphold the Constitution. I see no problem with someone not in government expressing this view.
Avatar photo by Richard Lykes, used with permission.
Exactly. It's frustrating, underhanded, and pretty damn idiotic I would say, but I fail to see how it is in any way treasonous. And reading the excerpt that Eru provided, I believe most people would interpret "force" as being physical in nature.yovargas wrote:Um, yeah, that's pretty ridiculous.....I'm pretty sure not voting on a bill is, you know, like, legal and stuff, correct me if I'm wrong.
"I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived." - HDT
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Voronwë the Faithful
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It is, actually, exactly the same kind of thinking that has led to this mess.
Obamacare is the biggest threat to freedom this country has ever seen! Any action is worth taking to stop it!
The GOP is committing treason!!
It is the same kind of dangerous overstatement.
Obamacare is the biggest threat to freedom this country has ever seen! Any action is worth taking to stop it!
The GOP is committing treason!!
It is the same kind of dangerous overstatement.
Last edited by Voronwë the Faithful on Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
And I agree with, and am relieved to see, the words of Lali, Prim, elsha , yov, and Sir V. Passion is good, but when people get to the point that words and ideas like this are being thrown around (did someone really say something about assassinating Obama? REALLY? Good Lord, that gives me goosebumps) then we have all lost our way.
, yov, and Sir V. Passion is good, but when people get to the point that words and ideas like this are being thrown around (did someone really say something about assassinating Obama? REALLY? Good Lord, that gives me goosebumps) then we have all lost our way."What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Anthy, there have been more threats to assassinate President Obama than any president in history, and some that have been more than threats (but fortunately stopped before they went anywhere). As much as previous presidents were hated by their political enemies, the hatred towards this president dwarfs it all in its vehemence and unreason.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
Yes, and some of that can clearly be attributed to racism, shamefully.
It still gives me goosebumps.
It still gives me goosebumps.
"What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Voronwë the Faithful
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[OT]Sadly, I am convinced that if Hillary Clinton or any other woman of either party becomes president in 2016, we will see an equal amount of sexist-based hate. I saw a recent sample of what might happen: buttons at the California GOP Convention that read "K F C HILLARY SPECIAL 2 Fat Thighs 2 Small Breasts...Left Wing" http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/ ... ntion.html [/OT]
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
That's just sad. Really? You know what, if you don't like her politics, cool. I've never been a big fan, myself. But would a man have his physicality attacked like that?
People disappoint me.
People disappoint me.
"What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Someone like Chris Christie, Governor of NJ, would be bound to get comments about his weight. While I don't think that is right, I also don't think it is the same.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."