This topic arises out of a brief exchange in Mith's thread re: PJPII.
Unfortunately, I have a very unreliable Internet connection right now and am in a rush, so I can't write a very long post. How about we start this way:
1. What religion/spirituality and denomination are you?
2. Does that denomination have female religious (non-lay) leaders (priests, rabbis, ministers, etc)?
3. If yes, what age were you when women were first ordained?
4. If yes, have you ever belonged to a congregation led by a female religious leader? How did it compare to your experiences with male religious leaders?
5. If no, would you prefer that your denomination ordain women? Why or why not?
6. What difference - if any, whether positive or negative - does it (or would it) make to you for your religious leadership to include women?
As I've written, I grew up Catholic, and I found it profoundly alienating that women were not admitted to the priesthood. I was 4 or 5 the first time that I went to our parish priests to complain about it, and it certainly wasn't an idea planted in my head by either parent - it simply was something that felt wrong and discriminatory to me, even at that young age. I believe that my worldview was profoundly impacted by that experience in two ways: (1) it conditioned me to look to men exclusively as spiritual leaders from a young age and (2) it taught me to be very angry in each instance in which a woman is told not to do something because of her gender, whether by a patriarchal church or by any other institution, secular or religious.
Once I decided to leave Catholicism as a pre-adolescent, I was determined not to consider any denomination, regardless of religion, which was unwilling to ordain women (with the exception of my brief and doomed-from-the-start flirtation with Orthodox Judaism). However, I did not feel that I personally needed to attend a congregation with a female rabbi, so long as the denomination was not actually discriminating against women; I think that I can benefit immensely from the guidance of both male and female rabbis. However, both congregations to which I have belonged have, by coincidence, selected female rabbis, and it has truly been a delightful experience - both socially and spiritually - to look to a female head-of-congregation. Because of the unfortunate influence that the male-only Catholic priesthood had on me personally, it took some time to adjust to a female leading services and speaking for the congregation with final authority. That is why I understand what Hobby means when she says that she wants her services to look and feel right, and she is uncertain whether this would be true if a woman was leading them. I think Prim is correct, however, that it simply takes some adjusting. (Similarly, I imagine that if one is only used to white religious leaders, it would take some time to adjust to a minority religious leader, but IMO, that would only mean that it could and should be done.)
More later, of course.
Female religious leaders
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nerdanel
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Female religious leaders
I won't just survive
Oh, you will see me thrive
Can't write my story
I'm beyond the archetype
I won't just conform
No matter how you shake my core
'Cause my roots, they run deep, oh
When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
This is no mistake, no accident
When you think the final nail is in, think again
Don't be surprised, I will still rise
Oh, you will see me thrive
Can't write my story
I'm beyond the archetype
I won't just conform
No matter how you shake my core
'Cause my roots, they run deep, oh
When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
This is no mistake, no accident
When you think the final nail is in, think again
Don't be surprised, I will still rise
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truehobbit
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I like the way you start the topic, nel - I hope we can keep it nice and friendly. 
1. What religion/spirituality and denomination are you?
Roman Catholic Christian
2. Does that denomination have female religious (non-lay) leaders (priests, rabbis, ministers, etc)?
Not as far as I know. (I.e. I don't know what the role of an abbess would be, for example).
There are, of course, female religious "leaders" in the sense of the mulitude of female saints/authors/inspired people whose guidance (i.e. leadership) for life is valid for both male and female believers.
But no institutional leaders, AFAIK.
3. and 4.
n.a.
5. If no, would you prefer that your denomination ordain women? Why or why not?
No, because I think there are things that men are good at and there are things that women are good at. I've never seen a need to change that.
6. What difference - if any, whether positive or negative - does it (or would it) make to you for your religious leadership to include women?
I think the only difference it would make would be that I'd have even greater trouble finding a "traditional" service that would suit my taste.
That means, if the Pope said tomorrow that we'll have women priests from now on, I wouldn't leave the church about it, or so, but I am glad it's not very likely he's going to say that.
Actually, I just read a page in that book I mentioned, Salt of the Earth, by Cardinal Ratzinger, where the question was mentioned as an example in connection with the problem of a modern view of "power".
The easiest thing will be to translate the paragraph:
"There is an ideology which basically reduces everything that exists to power structures. And this ideology ruins mankind and destroys the church, too. I'll take a very specific example: if I only view the church from the viewpoint of "power", then everybody who doesn't hold office is a suppressed subject. And then, for example, the question of ordination of women becomes inevitable, because everybody has to be able to attain power. I think, this ideology of suspicion that everything is basically about power doesn't only destroy cooperation in the church but in human life in general. It gives a completely wrong view, as though power was an aim in itself in the church.
...
We are not in church in order to rise to power in a social club. If membership in the church makes sense, then only to give us true, eternal life. Everything else is secondary.
...
This doesn't really answer your question, and it certainly doesn't go the whole way to explain my feelings about the question, but when I read it today, I was reminded of our discussion, and it struck me as one aspect in the explanation for why I have never seen the need to have women priests. I simply don't see why it should be desired.
1. What religion/spirituality and denomination are you?
Roman Catholic Christian
2. Does that denomination have female religious (non-lay) leaders (priests, rabbis, ministers, etc)?
Not as far as I know. (I.e. I don't know what the role of an abbess would be, for example).
There are, of course, female religious "leaders" in the sense of the mulitude of female saints/authors/inspired people whose guidance (i.e. leadership) for life is valid for both male and female believers.
But no institutional leaders, AFAIK.
3. and 4.
n.a.
5. If no, would you prefer that your denomination ordain women? Why or why not?
No, because I think there are things that men are good at and there are things that women are good at. I've never seen a need to change that.
6. What difference - if any, whether positive or negative - does it (or would it) make to you for your religious leadership to include women?
I think the only difference it would make would be that I'd have even greater trouble finding a "traditional" service that would suit my taste.
That means, if the Pope said tomorrow that we'll have women priests from now on, I wouldn't leave the church about it, or so, but I am glad it's not very likely he's going to say that.
Actually, I just read a page in that book I mentioned, Salt of the Earth, by Cardinal Ratzinger, where the question was mentioned as an example in connection with the problem of a modern view of "power".
The easiest thing will be to translate the paragraph:
"There is an ideology which basically reduces everything that exists to power structures. And this ideology ruins mankind and destroys the church, too. I'll take a very specific example: if I only view the church from the viewpoint of "power", then everybody who doesn't hold office is a suppressed subject. And then, for example, the question of ordination of women becomes inevitable, because everybody has to be able to attain power. I think, this ideology of suspicion that everything is basically about power doesn't only destroy cooperation in the church but in human life in general. It gives a completely wrong view, as though power was an aim in itself in the church.
...
We are not in church in order to rise to power in a social club. If membership in the church makes sense, then only to give us true, eternal life. Everything else is secondary.
...
This doesn't really answer your question, and it certainly doesn't go the whole way to explain my feelings about the question, but when I read it today, I was reminded of our discussion, and it struck me as one aspect in the explanation for why I have never seen the need to have women priests. I simply don't see why it should be desired.
but being a cheerful hobbit he had not needed hope, as long as despair could be postponed.
The Anglican Church began to allow female priests when I was in my teens.
The priest of my parent's church is a woman. She was a wonderful help and support during the illness and subsequent death of both my parents.
When my mother had a stroke, she was the first person to visit her in hospital. When we knew my mother was not going to make it through the night, she was the first person I called. She insisted on coming to give her the Anglican equivalent of Last Rites, even though it was Easter Sunday, the end of the most exhausting week of the year for those who serve in a liturgical church. (She would have officiated at services on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Sunday, and possibly a vigil on Saturday night, in addition to having Easter dinner with her family.)
I have to confess it took me awhile to get used to the idea, and there have been female priests I haven't liked, but Jennifer, my parent's priest definitely is a very fine, dedicated minister, a credit to her calling and the church.
One thing I firmly believe, is that a priest benefits greatly from the support of a spouse and family. I have seen many instances where a pastor or priest got into difficulty due to the lack of such support. In one case, the pastor was always looking for a strong male or female friend to be her partner/mentor and support in the ministry, and, alas, did not always choose wisely. She has become a much better minister since she remarried. In another instance, a divorced male priest had a nervous breakdown when a parishoner verbally attacked him and tried to blackmail him. This might have happened under any circumstances, but I believe it would have been easier to take if he'd had a spouse to supuport him. In many, many other instances, celibate male priests fell into sexual temptation, either with females or young boys.
But that's getting into the whole issue of celibacy, and that's a whole 'nuther can of worms!
The priest of my parent's church is a woman. She was a wonderful help and support during the illness and subsequent death of both my parents.
When my mother had a stroke, she was the first person to visit her in hospital. When we knew my mother was not going to make it through the night, she was the first person I called. She insisted on coming to give her the Anglican equivalent of Last Rites, even though it was Easter Sunday, the end of the most exhausting week of the year for those who serve in a liturgical church. (She would have officiated at services on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Sunday, and possibly a vigil on Saturday night, in addition to having Easter dinner with her family.)
I have to confess it took me awhile to get used to the idea, and there have been female priests I haven't liked, but Jennifer, my parent's priest definitely is a very fine, dedicated minister, a credit to her calling and the church.
One thing I firmly believe, is that a priest benefits greatly from the support of a spouse and family. I have seen many instances where a pastor or priest got into difficulty due to the lack of such support. In one case, the pastor was always looking for a strong male or female friend to be her partner/mentor and support in the ministry, and, alas, did not always choose wisely. She has become a much better minister since she remarried. In another instance, a divorced male priest had a nervous breakdown when a parishoner verbally attacked him and tried to blackmail him. This might have happened under any circumstances, but I believe it would have been easier to take if he'd had a spouse to supuport him. In many, many other instances, celibate male priests fell into sexual temptation, either with females or young boys.
But that's getting into the whole issue of celibacy, and that's a whole 'nuther can of worms!
When the night has been too lonely, and the road has been too long,
And you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong,
Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows,
Lies the seed, that with the sun's love, in the spring becomes The Rose.
And you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong,
Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows,
Lies the seed, that with the sun's love, in the spring becomes The Rose.
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Primula Baggins
- Living in hope
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Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (the largest North American Lutheran body)1. What religion/spirituality and denomination are you?
Yes; women can be ordained ministers.2. Does that denomination have female religious (non-lay) leaders (priests, rabbis, ministers, etc)?
The LCA, one of the parent bodies of the ELCE and the one my church belonged to, voted to ordain women in June 1970, and the first woman was ordained in November 1970 (women were allowed to attend seminary but couldn't accept calls to serve as pastors, which is necessary for odrination). So I was 12.3. If yes, what age were you when women were first ordained?
I've never been a member of a church whose senior pastor was a woman, but I've attended churches with women as associate pastors, and my present church serves as an intern training site—most of our interns, who serve us for a year at a time, have been women.4. If yes, have you ever belonged to a congregation led by a female religious leader? How did it compare to your experiences with male religious leaders?
I don't see any difference. I've liked and disliked both male and female pastors. I do think there is value in a large church making a point of having female clergy on staff, because many women find it easier to talk to women about personal or marital problems.
As for the liturgical role, I see no difference at all. God can talk to me through a woman as easily as through a man—God having no gender, after all.
A side benefit of women's ordination is that many churches have been very well served by ordained married couples.
N/A5. If no, would you prefer that your denomination ordain women? Why or why not?
If women could not serve as pastors and play every role within my church, I would feel that we were not regarded as full members of the church. I would feel sidelined and talked down to. I think it could do great harm to girls growing up in the church to feel that God had less use for them.6. What difference - if any, whether positive or negative - does it (or would it) make to you for your religious leadership to include women?
...
hobby, I think women who feel called to the priesthood might disagree that no one "needs" for women to be ordained. I know from talking to ordained women and female intern pastors that this call is no less deep or strong because one is a woman.
I don't see it as a call to power, perhaps because the Lutheran church doesn't have much of a hierarchy; and as the daughter of a pastor, having seen the pastoral life from the inside, I tend to think of it as a life of giving and sacrifice and, often, frustration rather than one of power and authority. I am certain my father felt that he had very little power over his church council!
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
Hobby, that's an interesting quote. However, to my way of thinking, it demonstrates exactly WHY women SHOULD be ordained. If only men are allowed to be priests, it comes across as the men wanting to deny power to the women. Historically, the Catholic church has a bad reputation as far as wanting political power. I see their failure to ordain women as a reminder of the 'bad old days' when the church had a great deal more power than it does today. What has that got to do with women? Well, it was also a time when women were not even allowed to vote in elections.
If the Catholic church wants to prove Ratzinger correct, and show the world that their refusal to ordain women has nothing to do with power, in my opinion, they should allow it to happen.
If the Catholic church wants to prove Ratzinger correct, and show the world that their refusal to ordain women has nothing to do with power, in my opinion, they should allow it to happen.
Last edited by Sunsilver on Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
When the night has been too lonely, and the road has been too long,
And you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong,
Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows,
Lies the seed, that with the sun's love, in the spring becomes The Rose.
And you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong,
Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows,
Lies the seed, that with the sun's love, in the spring becomes The Rose.
1. What religion/spirituality and denomination are you?
Roman Catholic
2. Does that denomination have female religious (non-lay) leaders (priests, rabbis, ministers, etc)?
No.
3. If yes, what age were you when women were first ordained?
N/A
4. If yes, have you ever belonged to a congregation led by a female religious leader? How did it compare to your experiences with male religious leaders?
N/A
5. If no, would you prefer that your denomination ordain women? Why or why not?
No. I guess I'm one of those traditionalists. I'm pretty sure I'll be in the spotlight if I say that it's because back when Jesus called on Peter to be the first Pope (The Rock) all of Jesus apostles were men. Yes, I know, it's always been like that. I don't know how to explain what I feel without being called a chauvinist pig. All I can say is men command more respect than women even in this modern times. 
6. What difference - if any, whether positive or negative - does it (or would it) make to you for your religious leadership to include women?
I still don't have an answer to this.
Roman Catholic
2. Does that denomination have female religious (non-lay) leaders (priests, rabbis, ministers, etc)?
No.
3. If yes, what age were you when women were first ordained?
N/A
4. If yes, have you ever belonged to a congregation led by a female religious leader? How did it compare to your experiences with male religious leaders?
N/A
5. If no, would you prefer that your denomination ordain women? Why or why not?
No. I guess I'm one of those traditionalists.
I'm pretty sure I'll be in the spotlight if I say that it's because back when Jesus called on Peter to be the first Pope (The Rock) all of Jesus apostles were men. Yes, I know, it's always been like that. I don't know how to explain what I feel without being called a chauvinist pig. All I can say is men command more respect than women even in this modern times. 6. What difference - if any, whether positive or negative - does it (or would it) make to you for your religious leadership to include women?
I still don't have an answer to this.
“Lawyers are the only persons in whom ignorance of the law is not punished.” - Jeremy Bentham (1748 - 1832)
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truehobbit
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Well, Prim, I said that power was only one aspect.
But I think the meaning of power here is not so much "being the one who says what's what", but the kind of office one has, and how one is free to choose it, which might be called power.
I don't doubt at all that women can be admirable pastors in the true sense of the word - people who take care of the well-being of your soul. If it's true that, as is generally said, women are more caring then men, they would seem to be more suited to the office, really.
I don't deny that a woman can have a strong call to serve God or her fellow men/women!
As a Catholic, she could then join a monastery, in which she could choose between ones that put more stress on serving God, or on serving people or on an equal mix of both.
If she preferred to stay a lay-person, she could serve her fellow people as a catechist, for example, or by filling one of the many lay-offices in the Church.
So, I still don't see why she would need to be a priest, if it's a call to serve God and her fellow people which is driving her.
I think the difference between the Catholic take and the one of other churches is one of individual choice.
If I hadn't already quoted two paragraphs from the same book I'd go on to quote a third ( ), where Ratzinger speaks about the currently ruling idea that everybody should be able to style their own lives entirely the way they choose, and that this is not the take of the Church.
So, you seem to say that if a woman feels she has a call to be a priest then she should have that option because it's her wish.
But the Catholic church, as far as I can tell, sees it more as people having a call to serve God and their fellow people, and that it is then up to the Church to offer them ways to follow that call, and that the person feeling that call shouldn't see much of a difference in how they are enabled to follow their calling.
ETA: Sunny, but what you are saying was Ratzinger's point for not changing the Church's attitude. Their refusal has nothing to do with power, but with other reasons!
But I think the meaning of power here is not so much "being the one who says what's what", but the kind of office one has, and how one is free to choose it, which might be called power.
I don't doubt at all that women can be admirable pastors in the true sense of the word - people who take care of the well-being of your soul. If it's true that, as is generally said, women are more caring then men, they would seem to be more suited to the office, really.
I don't deny that a woman can have a strong call to serve God or her fellow men/women!
As a Catholic, she could then join a monastery, in which she could choose between ones that put more stress on serving God, or on serving people or on an equal mix of both.
If she preferred to stay a lay-person, she could serve her fellow people as a catechist, for example, or by filling one of the many lay-offices in the Church.
So, I still don't see why she would need to be a priest, if it's a call to serve God and her fellow people which is driving her.
I think the difference between the Catholic take and the one of other churches is one of individual choice.
If I hadn't already quoted two paragraphs from the same book I'd go on to quote a third (
), where Ratzinger speaks about the currently ruling idea that everybody should be able to style their own lives entirely the way they choose, and that this is not the take of the Church.So, you seem to say that if a woman feels she has a call to be a priest then she should have that option because it's her wish.
But the Catholic church, as far as I can tell, sees it more as people having a call to serve God and their fellow people, and that it is then up to the Church to offer them ways to follow that call, and that the person feeling that call shouldn't see much of a difference in how they are enabled to follow their calling.
ETA: Sunny, but what you are saying was Ratzinger's point for not changing the Church's attitude. Their refusal has nothing to do with power, but with other reasons!
but being a cheerful hobbit he had not needed hope, as long as despair could be postponed.
I have occasionally seen a dark side to the Catholic church that has made me think it DOES have to do with power, TH. That may not be your experience, though, and I am talking about things that happened many years ago. Things could be different now.
When the night has been too lonely, and the road has been too long,
And you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong,
Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows,
Lies the seed, that with the sun's love, in the spring becomes The Rose.
And you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong,
Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows,
Lies the seed, that with the sun's love, in the spring becomes The Rose.
IMHO, if it ain't broken don't fix it.
Catholics have been used to the male priesthood why the they heck do we have to change tradition because it is politically correct. Like Hobby said, I wouldn't leave the church if they ordain women, which is highly unlikely. I'll take women priests over married priest anytime.
I apologize Nel if I struck a chord with you but leaving the church just because it doesn't suit your needs makes me scratch my head. Do you leave the country if the President's actions is not to your liking? No, right. There are some things you can't change, you just have to deal with it.
Catholics have been used to the male priesthood why the they heck do we have to change tradition because it is politically correct. Like Hobby said, I wouldn't leave the church if they ordain women, which is highly unlikely. I'll take women priests over married priest anytime.
I apologize Nel if I struck a chord with you but leaving the church just because it doesn't suit your needs makes me scratch my head. Do you leave the country if the President's actions is not to your liking? No, right. There are some things you can't change, you just have to deal with it.
Last edited by Lurker on Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Lawyers are the only persons in whom ignorance of the law is not punished.” - Jeremy Bentham (1748 - 1832)
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themary
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I was raised Catholic.1. What religion/spirituality and denomination are you?
Nope, but we do have nuns.2. Does that denomination have female religious (non-lay) leaders (priests, rabbis, ministers, etc)?
Absolutely! Teaching God's word shouldn't have anything to do with gender. The Catholic church needs to reevaluate their doctrine especially now when there is a shortage of priests, due largely in part to the molestation fiasco (a completey differnent topic5. If no, would you prefer that your denomination ordain women? Why or why not?
).6. What difference - if any, whether positive or negative - does it (or would it) make to you for your religious leadership to include women?
It would be a huge step for the Catholic church. They are too old school. Not all change is bad and like I mentioned above, being able to teach the Lord's word has nothing to do with your sex.
There of course would be a huge out cry from the old skoolers if women were allowed to become ordained. But it doesn't make any sense to me. I really think those who oppose are missing the point.
ETA: I just went back and read some of the other posts and I must say I am appauled at some of the responses. I need to take a step back before I say something that isnt' well thought out. But I will add this...
Lurker, you said in so many words " if it isn't broken then don't fix it". The Catholic church IS broken! The men we've trusted have abused power and people.
It seriously feel ill.
*walks away for now*
Last edited by themary on Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
...the embers never fade in your city by the lake
The place where you were born
The place where you were born
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Primula Baggins
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Well, Lurker, I know some Catholics who would say that it is broken.
However, I don't feel qualified to argue for changes in someone else's church. I do feel strongly that women could serve very well as priests, and the reasons for not allowing them to do so are quite unconvincing to me (and I do know rather a lot from the "inside" about what the life of a congregational pastor is like).
But I'm not under any obligation to accept these reasons, as Catholics are.
However, I don't feel qualified to argue for changes in someone else's church. I do feel strongly that women could serve very well as priests, and the reasons for not allowing them to do so are quite unconvincing to me (and I do know rather a lot from the "inside" about what the life of a congregational pastor is like).
But I'm not under any obligation to accept these reasons, as Catholics are.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Lurker, I can't tell if you really mean this or if the emoticom means that you are joking. Do you really believe this is true? If so, why?Lurker wrote:All I can say is men command more respect than women even in this modern times.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
Where do people get this idea there is a shortage of priests? It's because of molestation fiasco, sheez!themary wrote:Absolutely! Teaching God's word shouldn't have anything to do with gender. The Catholic church needs to reevaluate their doctrine especially now when there is a shortage of priests, due largely in part to the molestation fiasco (a completey differnent topic5. If no, would you prefer that your denomination ordain women? Why or why not?
Yes, I'm not arguing that there is no such thing as a molestation fiasco but what irks me is if it happens in another religion it doesn't become a headline in every newspaper around the world. 
Just sayin. Even priests are human, they commit sin, we commit sin, it's not like if you don the vestments you become holy no it doesn't work that way people. I think I said in JPII thread that in third world countries that seminaries there are in the brink of bursting to the seams because of the shear numbers of young men (mostly from poor families) to become priests. The problems is it takes a lot of money and intelligence to enter the priesthood, it's like going to university, not everybody gets in. In fact, through discertion they will tell you if you are fit to become a priest or a brother, so it's not that easy as one might think. In India alone, there is a village where in every household one male member of the family becomes a priest. Sad to say, in Western countries, only a few guys really are inclined to priesthood, thus, have you noticed recently that most priests are imported from the third world.
“Lawyers are the only persons in whom ignorance of the law is not punished.” - Jeremy Bentham (1748 - 1832)
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Primula Baggins
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There are some who agree with that, and some who don't, TM, and many like me who are outside the question.
Perhaps we can all learn something, or at least understand each other's ideas better, through this calm discussion.
Perhaps we can all learn something, or at least understand each other's ideas better, through this calm discussion.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
I'm a Christian, formerly of a Southern Baptist set of churches, but now I prefer to think of myself as just a Christian.
As far as I know, Women can become pastors, although it is certainly rare. Each church is rather independant so it would depend on the church I imagine.
I am big on tradition. I think tradition is very important in religion. It's about remember the past, and honoring all the people who have lived that religion to get it to you.
With that said, if you place tradition on a pedistal, and care more for that than the basic beliefs of your religion, then you've lost the way.
I would love having a church with a rich tradition. But if that church can't grow and adapt, and learn from its mistakes, then the church has replaced God as what's most important.
The reasons women aren't leaders in the Catholic church have nothing to do with Christianity. God sees sinners and non-sinners, not men, women, priests, pastors, black, white, whatever...
As far as I know, Women can become pastors, although it is certainly rare. Each church is rather independant so it would depend on the church I imagine.
I am big on tradition. I think tradition is very important in religion. It's about remember the past, and honoring all the people who have lived that religion to get it to you.
With that said, if you place tradition on a pedistal, and care more for that than the basic beliefs of your religion, then you've lost the way.
I would love having a church with a rich tradition. But if that church can't grow and adapt, and learn from its mistakes, then the church has replaced God as what's most important.
The reasons women aren't leaders in the Catholic church have nothing to do with Christianity. God sees sinners and non-sinners, not men, women, priests, pastors, black, white, whatever...
For the TROUBLED may you find PEACE
For the DESPAIRING may you find HOPE
For the LONELY may you find LOVE
For the SKEPTICAL may you find FAITH
-Frances C. Arrillaga 1941-1995
For the DESPAIRING may you find HOPE
For the LONELY may you find LOVE
For the SKEPTICAL may you find FAITH
-Frances C. Arrillaga 1941-1995
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themary
- Prettiest City I know!
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I agree Prim! I just got off the phone with my devoute Mom we don't see eye to eye but she listens and offers her side. I feel much cooler now.
Lurker, yes priests are human and I'm not being a very good Christian because I haven't found it in my heart to forgive the priests that preyed on the innocent and I haven't found it in my heart to forgive the church for their half-assed attempt at cleaning it up, but those are my personal issues. I just won't stand by and support a group of men that feel the need to shove old school doctrine in my face and tell me that's what I have to believe. That's not what God had in mind when he wanted people to spread his word.
Females are no less qualified to preach IMHO.
Lurker, yes priests are human and I'm not being a very good Christian because I haven't found it in my heart to forgive the priests that preyed on the innocent and I haven't found it in my heart to forgive the church for their half-assed attempt at cleaning it up, but those are my personal issues. I just won't stand by and support a group of men that feel the need to shove old school doctrine in my face and tell me that's what I have to believe. That's not what God had in mind when he wanted people to spread his word.
Females are no less qualified to preach IMHO.
...the embers never fade in your city by the lake
The place where you were born
The place where you were born
I believe it's somewhat the truth. My wife is an engineer (a male dominated occupation.) she often complains that she doesn't get the same respect as her male colleagues. One time she caught an employee using a forklift under the influence, she told the employee to go down and go home before he hurt himself (she's the department head), the employee said "Sure, missy!" and continued what he was doing. She had to call a male supervisor just to get the message across.Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:Lurker, I can't tell if you really mean this or if the emoticom means that you are joking. Do you really believe this is true? If so, why?Lurker wrote:All I can say is men command more respect than women even in this modern times.
I remember back in Business school we had an exercise on perception. How much money do you think a female executive should earn? Most of the class say 85, 100. When asked the same question with regards to male everybody gives a higher number? 150, 250. It's hard to believe even my female classmates gave a higher number for the male vs their female counterpart and my prof who was a woman just shook her head and said I can't believe the women in this class actually thinks men should make more money than women.
“Lawyers are the only persons in whom ignorance of the law is not punished.” - Jeremy Bentham (1748 - 1832)
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Primula Baggins
- Living in hope
- Posts: 40005
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:43 am
- Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
- Contact:
A generation or two ago many people would have said the same thing about white and non-white people, Lurker: that a non-white leader can't get as much respect and so is less qualified, and that it's fine for him to make less money than his white counterpart.
They were wrong then, too.
They were wrong then, too.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
Like you, I am upset that the Catholic Church with regards to how they dealt with it but I'm not easily persuaded to abandon my beliefs just because it's not to my liking. Like gay marriage, I supported the move, but since I'm a traditionalist I said just as long as they don't get the church (any religion) involved it's okey with me, seperation of church and state, right?themary wrote:I agree Prim! I just got off the phone with my devoute Mom we don't see eye to eye but she listens and offers her side. I feel much cooler now.
Lurker, yes priests are human and I'm not being a very good Christian because I haven't found it in my heart to forgive the priests that preyed on the innocent and I haven't found it in my heart to forgive the church for their half-assed attempt at cleaning it up, but those are my personal issues. I just won't stand by and support a group of men that feel the need to shove old school doctrine in my face and tell me that's what I have to believe. That's not what God had in mind when he wanted people to spread his word.
Females are no less qualified to preach IMHO.
Yes, I understand women are qualified to preach, they are free do so like Holby said, but do you really have to become a priest to do that? It's just a freakin' title!
I have yet to hear a devout Catholic say that it's okay with them having women as priests. From this thread most of those who say it's not fair are lapsed (former) Catholics. I'm sorry but that's how I see it.
“Lawyers are the only persons in whom ignorance of the law is not punished.” - Jeremy Bentham (1748 - 1832)