The all too early Season Two thread (possible spoilers)

[Dave_LF]

Given that we're solidly in fanfic world, I was kind of hoping to see nine for mortal mice, doomed to die.

Maybe I've just played too many medieval strategy games, but I keep finding myself frustrated by the lack of attention paid to logistics. Where did those trebuchets come from? How could Elrond even imagine that Durin would be able to provision, muster, and march an army in... well I actually have no clue how much time was supposed to have passed between those two scenes, which is another complaint. It's part of a general problem of the series trying to have moments it hasn't earned, whether that means ignoring time and distance to have characters and armies show up wherever and whenever it helps the plot, or trying to bestow a hero's* death on a character we only just met. There are no *rules* governing this world except "if it looks cool, do it."** Oh well.

*Or a villain's. I mean, Damrod got his own *theme song*, and that's all he's gonna do?

**For example: we've had multiple scenes where Arondir***, a lowly sylvan elf, has taken out roughly an entire century of orcs both single-handedly and with great panache. Yet we're supposed to believe an army of high elves would be defeated by orcs, and without attempting even a single backflip?

***Speaking of Arondir, if his fate is indeed what it appeared to be, I'll have to massively increase my "Theo becomes a Nazgûl" bet

[Frelga]

Honestly, I'm ok with the rule of cool in this instance. Tolkien himself switched between paying meticulous attention to detail and making up places that can't exist logistically or economically. There is the kind of fantasy that tries to be as realistic as possible, even working in magic as if it were science. But Middle-earth isn't it and it was never meant to be.

I'm up to e6, and I got spoiled for several things that I regret knowing beforehand (the thing with the sea creature). Overall, I rate it excellent.

Not the biggest fan of the Bombadil story line, or giving Tom some of Gandalf's canon lines. Tom looks spot on, though.

It occurs to me that they basing the Stranger (can we just call him Gandalf now?) on Gandalf's apparent partial memory loss when he came back as the White.

It's going to be some Power of Friendship twist, isn't it?

Sauron is brilliant, no notes.

Disa is also brilliant.

That scene with her and Prince Durin. Probably anyone who lost a loved one to illness or dementia recognizes that moment when you look at them, and it's still them.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Where is Círdan? Why introduce him, even give him his Ring, and then just forget all about him? It makes no sense at all.

[dormouse]

He does feel a bit like a loose end now. I don't suppose we've seen the last of him, though, because he has one of the three, and he does play a part in the story of the rings. Perhaps he'll make more sense in a later season?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Hidden text.

He almost certainly will be handing off the ring to "Grand Elf" much earlier than in Tolkien's writings.

To be clear, once again there was a lot I liked alot about this episode, mixed in with things that I utterly cringed at. I'll say more at some point.

[Holbytla]

I don't consider this series as an adaptation, but more of an alternative perspective of Tolkien's world. Whatever the showrunners do or don't do, it's still the Tolkien world, and that was my initial draw.

So, because I like the premise, I watch. I like to believe that I'm judging the series as a show, rather than a long time fan of Middle Earth.
I'm not always successful, but I think I've done that as best as I can.

There are many facets to this series. So there are many areas to criticize or acclaim. That I think is the biggest flaw with this series. Too many facets.

The focus should have been more refined.
Everyone loves Galadriel and Elrond, and I understand the need for that draw, but their percentage of their story time was/is detrimentally disproportionate.

The series would have been better served with a more focused storyline. Sauron, Celembrimbor and Númenor should have been the focus.
The Istari, Hobbits, Dwarves and certain aforementioned elves should have had lesser roles/screen time.

Fewer instances of playing to the crowd would have made for a better series.

I don't see any reason to pick apart or support any specifics, because if let my true cantankerous side come to the forefront, I wouldn't have anything to watch.

[Dave_LF]

I’ve gotta admit, I have a grudging respect for the fact that they don’t even make a hand wavy attempt to explain why Arondir is just fine after all the stabbing. Or why he’s immediately included in the councils of the high elves despite only just having met them (I think?).

Edit: aside from Galadriel, who was busy having her immortal soul withdrawn at the time

[Sunsilver]

Sauron, the ultimate narcissist/gaslighter, to Celebrimbor, whom he has been torturing: "Just LOOK at what you've done to yourself!"

Dave, that really threw me for a loop! At first I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me!
Maybe they realized they made a mistake killing him off? It certainly looked to be a fatal stabbing - a sword all the way through his chest is not the sort of thing people could survive, given what we've seen of this society's level of advancement.

I liked this last episode. What happened with the dwarves was quite predictable, but I liked how it was done. Will save any spoilers for later.

I agree with Holby - there are too many characters and story lines. The only way this could have been given a good treatment would have been if the series extended over many more seasons, and was able to focus on one storyline over several episodes. When they switched back to Isildur in the Southlands, I couldn't even remember the name of the character who came to the Southlands from Númenor, supposedly to help the people there. That whole part left me very confused. Wait: he won't let Isildur return to Númenor, but they are supposed to build ships for the Numenoreans? And it seems that they are letting a lot of other people return with them. I guess this is because his father has been declared a traitor, despite Mirel being judged as innocent by the sea monster.

[Alatar]

Disappointed they went with the obvious Gandalf, and I really hope the Dark Wizard isn't Saruman (do I recall that Alatar was a friend of Olorins and came out of friendship?) but overall I really enjoyed the episode. However, even though I appreciate their use of minimal CGI, I still think they could do with boosting the crowd scenes digitally.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Disappointed they went with the obvious Gandalf, and I really hope the Dark Wizard isn't Saruman (do I recall that Alatar was a friend of Olorins and came out of friendship?)

Apparently, the showrunners have pretty categorically stated that the DW is NOT Saruman, so it must be your namesake (though I doubt be will be so named).

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/st ... wer-finale

"One of the characters who still doesn't get a name is the Dark Wizard played by Ciarán Hinds. We know that he's a wizard, we know he's one of five. He says that to Gandalf. I think we can guess that perhaps he is Saruman, but I won't ask you to confirm that because obviously you've chosen not to answer it.

McKay: No, no, I'll say something on the record. Given the history of Middle-earth, it would be highly, highly, highly improbable that this could be Saruman.

Payne: If not impossible.

McKay: The Dark Wizard has an important role to play in the doings of Middle-earth, and in the development of our wizard, who's now coming into his own. Tom Bombadil has told him, "You're destined to face him. And then destined to face Sauron." So the Dark Wizard's fate is not decided and his name is not out there yet, but it would almost defy the laws of gravity and physics for it to be Saruman.

Seeing the way he roughed up the halflings made me think, If he is Saruman, how would he ever regain the trust that Gandalf has to later place in him?

McKay: I think that's a fair observation.

Tolkien also made note of only five wizards, Gandalf the Grey, Saruman the White…

Payne: There's Radagast the Brown and then there's two blue wizards—and that's all we'll say."

I'm really struggling to see how they are going to work a contest between Gandalf and Alatar into the broad outline of how the Second Age plays out. But I guess we will see!

[ArathornJax]

Upfront, I accept Rings of Power for what it is, an adaptation of Tolkien's world and I watch and have enjoyed it. I've reached a point where the books are the books, the movies are an artist interpretation of Tolkien's writing and I am fine with that. It also is a medium that keeps Tolkien in the for front of our culture which I am grateful for.

I also will say I have enjoyed this season even more than last season. However, the finale was disappointing. It felt rushed, half hazard and it had many missed opportunities. I felt in the season that they had built up to Adar being betrayed because of his willingness to sacrifice his children to defeat Sauron. I would have LOVED to see Sauron actually persuade the orcs in doing this . . . missed opportunity.

The balrog and Durin III and his sacrifice. It is Durin VI in TA 1980 where the Balrog is released. I saw this coming but I was disappointed in it. Also, Durin IV having a brother who is challenging for the throne? Hmmm . . . not sure on that one. Seems to me that the Dwarves have a bond to their king and his heir and I find this going against my grain.

Gandalf . . . . well, disappointed in that as well. Felt that was a quick token thrown out to wrap that up.

Loved Celebrimbor's prophesy on the impact of the ring on Sauron. Goes with something I have been thinking in my rereading, that Sauron is really captured by the ring and the one ring has it's own purpose, to survive, exist and dominate and whoever is holding it, is a place holder for that. Sauron is encaptured by the ring which will dominate all that he does.

I have to agree I would have preferred a more focused story line and feel this is having too many story arcs. Again, I have enjoyed the season and anxiously will away season 3 but I have to say, this episode was disappointing. I have other items but I'll leave it with this.

[Dave_LF]

The balrog and Durin III and his sacrifice. It is Durin VI in TA 1980 where the Balrog is released. I saw this coming but I was disappointed in it.

A challenge every prequel faces is that real events are the product of many generations' worth of time, but you can't depict that without constantly introducing new characters and settings. So they compress, and the reader/viewer ends up with the impression that all the important historical events happened at about the same time, followed by a long period of boredom while the world waited for the main story to begin. It's understandable, but I think there was a real missed opportunity here since the world they're depicting contains actual immortal beings. I don't know about general audiences, but I think it would have been pretty cool to suddenly skip forward a century and see all new humans and human settlements contrasted with the same set of elves doing pretty much the same things.

They made a gesture toward this with the initial Elrond/Durin tension in S1, but just imagine some elf suggesting they consult Borovarin on something or other only to be told dude, that guy died of old age 200 years ago. That sort of thing must happen a lot, right?

[ArathornJax]

I agree Dave. It's not a deal breaker and I can accept what they are doing and I understand why they are doing it. IMO I believe they raise the Balrog so they are aware of its existence and where it is at, and I think with the commitments made to the dwarf lords that is why they will begin mining for mithril and eventually release the Balrog and that could be over the next thousand years to take. They may also decide to move on to having Khazad-dûm fall and the dwarves wandering and finding their kingdom under the mountain or Durin and it is why Durin will only send a contingent army to the last alliance as they are dealing with the Balrog in their own realm.

Please don't take me wrong, I am enjoying ROP and when I watch it with my wife, we just accept what they are offering. In truth, the movies have brought my wife into Middle Earth as she never liked Tolkien's writing style and this at least lets us have discussions and for that I am grateful! When I want book discussion I usually now go to my 30 year old son who loves both also.

My son pointed out I need to watch the behind the scenes for this episode as the showrunners talk about deciding to tell the story where the Balrog wasn't boom, here he is, but more of a sequence of events over time. Seems to fit with what I am thinking.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I have a much bigger problem with G[r]andealf being in the show than I do the Balrog.

[Dave_LF]

B plausibly argues there was likely a cut scene where Gil-Galad used his ring to heal Arondir. This would explain both his recovery and his sudden fast friendship with the non-Galadriel ringbearers, and in a narrative sense would have helped establish the healing power of the rings before it became essential to the plot.

Of course, she was also convinced Adar would turn out to be Celeborn, so take it for what it's worth (I'll admit I had a "holy cow, she's right!" moment when he turned around looking elf-y and Galadriel regarded him with shock)

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Yeah, me too, though I'm glad it didn't turn out to be the case (hopefully).

[Snowdog]

Right. On to the last episode... where to start... a mixed bag for me, which kind of sums up my thoughts on Rings of Power in general.

• The highlight of the Season are the scenes between Charles (Celebrimbor) and Charlie (Annatar/Sauron). I had doubts about the look of Celebrimbor, but he brought his A-game to the role. In this episode we see the torment and death of Celebrimbor and I loved it. I loved how it was written. I loved how it was acted. I'm hoping it sets up the orcs taking the impaled Celebrimbor and use it as a banner when they attack the elves. Sadly, as much as I like to think of these awesome scenarios in my head, I'm sure the shallowness of the writers will gloss over it and miss the opportunity like they seem to do. Questions over the lore changes aside however, Charles and Charlie made this their own. It’s the MVP of S2, just as Elrond/Durin was MVP of S1.

• Arondir is still kicking. I hope they do more with this character in later seasons. There is so much potential with that character and actor. Sadly, the shallowness of how he seemed to miraculously recover from his beatdown in Ep 7 isn't explained. Probably the use of the rings and elven healing power ala Elrond in the PJ movies, and such off-camera, but at this point I've come to accept this is how this show rolls.

• We check in on Númenor and shit remains confusing, half sketched. They really need to flesh out what is happening in Númenor to land this entire enterprise. Again, I'm hoping they spend more of S3 on Númenor, and I am hoping that with Elendil riding away from the mob scene in Armenelos, he find's Anárion in Andúnië in the west. I fully expect to be disappointed though.

• Gandalf is revealed (yawn) which to me is the worst possible outcome for the two-season investment. The writers could of had a freer slate had he been Saruman, for there has to be a lot of backstory there when he was good and had traveled east. Probably a rights thing especially with War of the Rohirrim bringing Saruman in. It is what it is. There is a weird dynamic going on with Gandalf & the (not Blue because licensing) Dark Wizard. A bit meh on it all to be honest. I really didn’t want the Stranger to be Gandalf. But he is, so meh. With the departure of Nori and the Stoors, maybe the proto-hobbits exit stage right will be the end of the whole hobbit side-plot? For some reason I doubt it.

• Adar is betrayed by his own, proving that karma is a bitch named Sauron. Again, the loyalties seemed fickle as they are in Númenor, but there was some hinting that all was not well with Adar in the minds of the Uruks

• We see Imladris before it becomes settled. The show could benefit with a little CGI to multiply the crowds some... here in Imladris, and in Númenor.

• We see Narsil in Elendil’s hands for the first time. Again, such a moment was seemingly rushed and really didn’t have the sort of impact it should have, but it was still cool.

• We see the Balrog too. Honestly, that scene between king & son, and that final shot of the king going toe to toe with the balrog in the most dwarfish way possible was pretty good. The balrog was deliberately a call back to the movies, and it works in the present -tense with the scene. Problem is I'm not sure how you put the balrog back in the bottle for the rest of the seasons though. Now that he's been disturbed, will he not go on a rampage and trash Khazad-dûm? This tweak of the lore timeline is as problematic as the rings being forged out of sequence. Also, the callbacks to the movies are generally lame and shows the shallowness of the writers. Those done in the stranger/hobbit scenes do not work. At all.

• S2 is vastly improved on S1. There’s a lot of room for further improvement, though. For instance, given the changes to the lore on Dwarf rings, how on earth are any of them distributed further?

• Will Kemen become the Mouth of Sauron? Hope so since there are so many callbacks to the PJ fanfic, a beheading would be a fitting end to the guy.

• Theo, I’m not thinking Witch-King. Given the relationship between him & Isildur, I’m thinking he might become the Lord of the Oathbreakers - those who Isildur cursed for betraying him.

I will make some hopeful predictions for S3 shortly, but I'm still stewing on them. After I re-watch S2 in binge format, I'll likely add/edit this... much of which I lifted from my wife's review elsewhere because I agreed with her assessments. I did clean up the language though.

I do have to agree that parts of the series seem rushed. I think what hits the cutting room floor would fulfill some of the seeming shallow quickness that things seem to happen. With 2/5ths of the series done, I don't have many expectations left for the rest. As much as I wanted some depth to the stories, I doubt they will be coming.

IF they are planning to take it up to the Last Alliance battle that kicks off the PJ movies, they will have to accomplish a lot.

In that time:
- Sauron needs to overrun Eriador
- Rivendell needs to be built (maybe Lórien too?)
- Númenor needs to somehow agree to come to Eriadior & bail out Gil-Galad/Lindon under Ar- Phârazon
- Númenor needs to capture Sauron & take him prisoner to Númenor
- Somewhere in all of this, the One Ring needs to be forged
- Sauron needs to corrupt Númenor
- Númenor needs to build a temple to Morgoth & start sacrificing the Faithful
- The Faithful need flee and arrive at Eriador
- Númenor needs to launch their assault on Valinor
- The Valar need to go Atlantis on Númenor
- Sauron needs to bug out back to Middle-Earth
- Gil-Galad needs to form the Last Alliance & assault Mordor
- the Siege of Mordor needs to happen
- Anárion (who has gotten two mentions but we haven’t even met yet) needs to be introduced so his death in this conflict means something
- Elendil, Gil-Galad need to die fighting Sauron
- Isildur needs to take up his father’s sword and sever the One Ring from Sauron’s hand
- The argument between Elrond & Isildur in Mount Doom needs to happen
- Isildur needs to be slain and the One Ring lost.
- Arnor and Gondor needs to be founded, because Pelargir is little more than ruins.
- Osgiliath, Minas Anor, and Minas Ithil need to be built.
- The seven and the nine rings need to be handed out.
- Oathbreakers need to be cursed.
- The Nazgûl need to be created.

I doubt most of that won't even be touched. Anyway, it's fun to hope, and also think of how I would have made the forty episodes.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Nice review, Snowdog (though I'd kinda like to see your wife's spicy version )

[Snowdog]

Nice review, Snowdog (though I'd kinda like to see your wife's spicy version )

I had to sanitize it because some of the boards I still participate on don't like language. Since it is 88% her review anyway, I'm writing my own as I take notes while binging through the eight episodes. I'll edit in the raw Elora (from TORc) review shortly.

Edit - here you go. From her FB...

Nerd Alert - Rings of Power: S2 Ep 8 - Spoilers
Consistently, the scenes between Charles (Celebrimbor) and Charlie (Annatar/Sauron) have been superb across the season.
This finale of S2 is no exception. We see the torment and death of Celebrimbor and I loved it. I loved how it was written. I loved how it was acted. It was exceptional work that made my nerd heart happy. So happy.
Questions remain over the lore changes, however they made this their own. It’s the MVP of S2, just as Elrond/Durin was MVP of S1.
Arondir is still kicking. I hope they do more with this character in later seasons. There is so much potential with that character and actor.
We check in on Númenor and shit remains confusing, half sketched. They really need to flesh out what is happening in Númenor to land this entire enterprise.
Gandalf is revealed (yawn) and maybe the proto-hobbits exit stage right. Hopefully they do. Weird dynamic going on with Gandalf & the (not Blue because licensing) Dark Wizard. A bit meh on it all to be honest. I really didn’t want the Stranger to be Gandalf. But he is, so meh.
Adar is betrayed by his own, proving that karma is a bitch named Sauron.
We see Imladris before it becomes settled.
We see the Balrog too. Honestly, that scene between king & son, and that final shot of the king going toe to toe with the balrog in the most dwarfish way possible was pretty fucking good. No. I will not be entertaining the balrog wing debate here. I’ve lost too many hours of my life I will never get back on that as it is.
The balrog was deliberately a call back to the movies. It works. There are callbacks to the movies in the Stranger/hobbit scenes too. They do not work. At all.
We see Narsil in Elendil’s hands for the first time. That really didn’t have the sort of impact it should have.
Right now, S2 is vastly improved on S1. There’s a lot of room for further improvement, though. For instance, given the changes to the lore on Dwarf rings, how on earth are any of them distributed further?
So, will Kemen become the Mouth of Sauron? Pls, pls, I fucking hope so because fuck that guy.
As for Theo, I’m not thinking Witch-King. Given the relationship btwn him & Isildur, I’m thinking he will become the Lord of the Oathbreakers - those who Isildur cursed himself for betraying him.
What do you think?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Thanks!

I'll edit in the raw Elora (from TORc) review shortly. [/size]

Does TORc still exist? It's funny to think that cus words would be allowed there. That certainly wasn't the case back in the day!

[To be fair, it also wasn't the case here in the early days, but that was never my doing.]