The all too early Season Two thread (possible spoilers)

[Aravar]

Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not some farcical aquatic ceremony.

[Dave_LF]

I'm still not digging Tom B. as a player--he's supposed to be outside the game

Bringing Tom to the screen is sort of a ludicrous idea to begin with, so maybe if *this* is the only thing I have to complain about...

[Dave_LF]

Published shortly after I wrote that last post: Zack Handlen, the designated RoP reviewer at Episodic Medium (subscription required), has never really cared for the series, but Tom's role in this one really pushed him over the edge:
https://episodicmedium.substack.com/p/r ... gs-the-a04 (the first few paragraphs are public)

Sometimes you start to wonder what the point of this job is. Like, for instance, when you’re watching the 14th episode of a show that still hasn’t really given a convincing reason for its own existence, and a character quotes a line from a movie that actually means something to you, and you have to stare down the cold, hard fact that no matter what you say about it, it doesn’t matter.
...
there are some moments where the badness is just so obvious, so mind-numbingly wrong, that I start to question everything. Not just the show, whose motivations are obvious (creative people working at the behest of a company trying to generate interest in its major IP), but my own existence in taking this nonsense seriously.

“Where Is He?” has some good bits. It has a lot of boring bits as well, and some bits that beggar belief in terms of character competency; if Galadriel was a real person, she’d be well within her rights to sue Amazon for defamation.
...
if you’re wondering what pushed me over the line this time, it was Bombadil—he’s still as melancholy and distant as ever, giving Definitely Gandalf one of his signature lines, the ole classic about how “Many that die deserve life,” etc.

I find this deeply irritating, which tracks, given I’ve found this version of Bombadil deeply irritating almost from the start. I understand the need to alter source material to better suit different mediums, but there’s no reason to bring this character into this particular role—or, if there is a reason, it’s purely mercenary. The Jackson movies (wisely) left ole Tom on the proverbial cutting room floor, so now the prequel series scoops him up; it’s just, the reason Bombadil wasn’t in the movies is the same reason why he’s such a bizarre fit here. The character was not meant to be a mentor figure. He can offer wisdom, but only in passing: like so many of the choices made by this show, forcing him into such a painfully familiar archetype ruins what made him interesting in the first place.
..
But then, that’s the direction this show has chosen to take. Take whatever lore you have the rights to, grab as many names and ideas as you can get in your fists, and then painfully, hideously, cram them into the pre-existing molds labeled “Television Fantasy Show” and film whatever mess comes out.

I'm not as mad as he is, but I have to agree. And I'll add to that the recycling of "a far green country under a swift sunrise" during the Numenorian funeral last time. This transform's Gandalf's speech to Pippin in Minas Tirith from an almost mystical revelation into just some old guy quoting Bible verses.

[narya]

Of course, some of us found the non-melancholic Bombadil of the books deeply irritating, so maybe you just can't win, no matter how you portray him.

And Sauron is quite the master gas-lighter, manipulating what Celebrimbor sees on a grand scale to make him question his sanity.

[Snowdog]

... I'll add to that the recycling of "a far green country under a swift sunrise" during the Numenorian funeral last time. This transform's Gandalf's speech to Pippin in Minas Tirith from an almost mystical revelation into just some old guy quoting Bible verses.

↑ This. Lazy writing pulling on all the threads of the PJ movies that attributed said quotes from the books to characters who didn't say them. RoP have ... had a chance to make something of their own, but they tend to want to leach off the movies that kicked the door down on making serious changes to lore and characters.


That said, I am still enjoying parts of Rings of Power. I posted this on 77 when Hof was down for a bit, so may as well share it here...


I've now watched up to Ep6, and as much as I see some great parts, I get let down by some seriously lazy writing, especially in Ep6. All the weak quotes of lines from the PJ movies that used quotes from the books for different characters, and the seeming duplication of some crappy scenes in Peter Jackson's movies....

They are clearly trying to do too much. After hoping for better, I think the whole Harfoot/Stranger/Stoors/Dark-cult wizard story arc is a big waste of screen time. I've pretty much lost interest in them and what happens to them.

The strength of the series is clearly the Halbarad/Annatar/Sauron character played by Charlie Vickers. He has yet to really disappoint. Cunning and manipulative... of just about everyone... this portrayal of Sauron is the best part of the series in my opinion. As harsh as I was on the casting of Charles Edwards as Celebrimbor, I have to say he is bringing his A-game to the script (such as it is), and the interaction between he and Annatar is quite good. Add to it the dwarves and especially the interaction between the two Durins, and Durin IV and Disa; it makes the series. As for Galadriel, the first season had me scratching my head over her, but I could see where she may have been a bit headstrong. But WTF did they do to her this season? She seems to be as easily manipulated and has become a sideshow elf. Telling Adar everything? Really?? No. The more the show goes on, the dumber she is looking. I do hope for some redemption in her storyline.

The People of Númenor ... at least the fifty or so that are always around... they are so fickle and change their minds with the tides. I guess because ... you guessed it ... 'the sea is always right'. I was hoping that wasn't going to rear its head again this season. That said, I do like Elendil and his storyline. Not book-accurate, but as accurate as Peter Jackson was to the Lord of the Rings books with his big-budget inspired fan-fiction adaptation of them. I am really hoping the writers get the Númenor dynamic right through the rest of the series. Pharazon is another character I see coming into his own as we go. With the sparing of Queen Míriel and Pharazon's glimpse of Halbarad and Sauron in the palantír, I'm hoping these three's dynamic together comes to fruit. Pharazon marries Míriel to give his rule legitimacy, and it for a time coexistence between Elendil and Pharazon and the two factions exists for a while.

My surprise S2 performance of an original character would be Mirdania played by Amelia Kenworthy. It was always assumed (by me at least) from reading what little there is of Celebrimbor and Ost-in-Edhil and all, that there were many Noldorian Elves living and working there. Mirdania and the other smiths really portray that well. She is of course a bit star-struck by Annatar, and it is clear that he is playing her (and Celebrimbor), like a fiddle, but I like her part. I even think Amelia Kenworthy would have made a better Galadriel than Morfyyd Clark.

An observation on the beginning of the siege on Ost-in-Edhil... elves panicking and stumbling all over the place? I have a hard time picturing elves acting that way. The scene seemed a lazy tap-in to Peter Jackson's Minas Tirith siege, and I thought it was out of place for the people of Gondor then. Most certainly it is for the Noldor.

Going forward, I will continue to hope for the best and expect the worst with this series. Sadly, after a stronger start than S1, I'm finding it deteriorating some as it goes, especially Ep 4 & 6.

[Sunsilver]

Sooo...no one's going to mention Míriel's bravery in the most recent episode? I think I loved her scene in this episode more than any other I've seen so far! What courage!
How about Disa, standing up to the dwarves?

If there's one thing I love about this series it's the powerful women in it! I don't care if some of them are non-canon! IT'S ABOUT TIME!! Women have been poorly represented in fantasy literature and film for decades and are even MORE poorly represented in science fiction! When they ARE represented, they are often just there as 'eye candy' or 'chicks in chain-mail'!

Apologies to Snow Dog - I didn't read your post before posting this. As of last night, when I last read this thread, no one had mentioned either of these women.

[narya]

Sunny, casting powerful women in a Tolkien tale is non-canon! Not that I'm complaining. He was a product of his times. I find the updates much easier to enjoy. (Like the updated Foundation TV series vs the all-male original book.)

[Sunsilver]

Or course, I'm well aware of that, Narya! And that's why (most of) the strong women are non-canon!

[Frelga]

It is absolutely canon, just not necessarily in the battle babe mold that Hollywood likes.

Proportionally, Tolkien wrote far more male characters, but he wrote many women, and he wrote them well. And many of them were in the positions of power or had heroic adventures.

Galadriel was one of the most powerful Elven rulers of the Third Age (not to mention everything that came before). Éowyn slayed the Witch-King. Lúthien faced Morgoth himself and had an upper hand. Haleth was the Chieftain of the Haladin. Elwing rescued the Silmaril.

He also wrote women who were denied power and still made difficult and courageous choices. Like Aerin.

Even the annoying Lobelia showed her quality in the end.

[dormouse]

It is absolutely canon, just not necessarily in the battle babe mold that Hollywood likes.
Proportionally, Tolkien wrote far more male characters, but he wrote many women, and he wrote them well. And many of them were in the positions of power or had heroic adventures.

This, yes! Tolkien's writing is full of strong female characters, from Varda, Yavanna and the rest, through to Melian, Lúthien, Aredhel, Idril, Elwing, Galadriel, Arwen; then the humans - Morwen, Beren's mother whose name I can't remember right now, Haleth, Éowyn - and even, as you say, good old Lobelia. All of them strong, powerful within their own kinds, and playing an essential role, but not a male one. As far as I can remember, only Haleth and Éowyn actually fight. Given the story of Tolkien's mother, and the depth of his feelings for her, I'd say he was more sensitive in writing his female characters than a lot of men of his generation.

I also agree with whoever said that Míriel's part in the latest episode was excellent. Funnily enough, the non-canon female role that's niggling me at the moment is Mirdania, because the combination of wide-eyed young blonde as assistant (PA?) to an older male employer seems to move Celebrimbor even further into the modern, business world - I struggle to see them as elves.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Beren's mother whose name I can't remember right now.

Emeldir.

[Frelga]

What I really appreciate about Tolkien writing women is that he is not actually writing a world of men in which women exist as props. Not only does he put women in power, he understands the impact of the forced powerlessness.

My friend, you had horses, and deed of arms, and the free fields; but she, being born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch him falling into a mean dishonoured dotage; and her part seemed to her more ignoble than that of the staff he leaned on.

I haven't watched e6, but I personally think that Disa is the strong female character in Tolkien's vein. She is not exercising her feminine wiles on her husband, but she is loving and competent, and manages to be direct yet compassionate with both her husband and her father-in-law, who both respect her. And she hasn't yet thrown a single punch.

[Teremia]

Tiptoeing in here very belatedly to say I've been rather surprised to find myself enjoying Season 2 of RoP. I like the depiction of Annatar's seduction of the elves--Celebrimbor's corruption is made quite convincing and painful. And I would love to hang out with that awesome, wise, strong-willed Disa, though I suppose earplugs might be advised.
True, I don't need that dark wizard (gives me slight Game of Thrones vibes), but I do like the closer view of orcs as persons, which is of course something the books suggest at moments (when sundry orcs are caught chatting amongst themselves). And the sets are pretty! So I'm not finding Season 2 as dull as I found Season 1 (and even then, I liked the pretty pictures). Nor am I wanting to throw things at the screen, which was my general reaction to those Hobbit movies.

[Alatar]

One grumble. Despite all my hopes that the Stranger is Alatar, the Secret Fire stuff was the one too many not so subtle hints that he’s Gandalf.

[dormouse]

Beren's mother whose name I can't remember right now.

Emeldir.

Thank you!

What I really appreciate about Tolkien writing women is that he is not actually writing a world of men in which women exist as props. Not only does he put women in power, he understands the impact of the forced powerlessness.

My friend, you had horses, and deed of arms, and the free fields; but she, being born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch him falling into a mean dishonoured dotage; and her part seemed to her more ignoble than that of the staff he leaned on.

I haven't watched e6, but I personally think that Disa is the strong female character in Tolkien's vein. She is not exercising her feminine wiles on her husband, but she is loving and competent, and manages to be direct yet compassionate with both her husband and her father-in-law, who both respect her. And she hasn't yet thrown a single punch.

Couldn't agree more - both about the way Tolkien writes women (the quotation about Éowyn is spot on. Then there's Andreth - another shade of womanhood and one of my favourite bits of JRRT's writing...) - and about Disa. She's been superb in both series, I think, as have the Durins.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

It's all so very strange.

Hidden text.

Galadriel has the Nine, and Adar has Nenya.

Not to mention Elrond making out with his future mother-in-law

Among other things.

That being said, they are definitely going places with Sauron that I had hoped and not expected.

[ArathornJax]

I agree I like how Sauron is developing . . . that they are doing a good job with. I'm glad it's on. I just became unemployed and now need an outlet while I find a new job/career for the next 5-7 years . . . . need the income until the retirement kicks in. So I'll be around more.

Overall, I have enjoyed the series but the Tom B. part was unnecessary I think. Would like that part to wrap up. Looking forward to watching the next episode tonight. Just started read The Fellowship this last week starting on Frodo's and Bilbo's bday. Enjoying that too!

[Snowdog]

To me, it's always been a given that we were going exploring into the world of fanfic, much like what PJ did, so I'm not hoping for much, especially with the 'usable lore dance' the producers are having to do with what they can get. That said; it's clearly well into the realm of a fanfic, so I accept it as such. The timeline is compressed and the ring creation is out of order, but I do think all the callbacks to the PJ fanfic is detrimental to the series and gives it yet another level of shallowness. C'mon! Do your own!

​

Now... Ep7 .... The battle for the most part was good. Sauron and Celebrimbor are excellent in their scenes and the Halbarad/Annatar/Sauron depth is really good in fleshing out Sauron, who we only get glimpses of in lore and is portrayed as the ultimate baddie eyeball searchlight in PJ's fanfic. I really liked the slight manipulation Sauron did to 'cause' Celebrimbor to shove Mirdania over the wall. Guess here wasn't a need for a smith now that the rings were done. I'll miss her. The orcs look great and so do the dwarves. There was even a very 'Galadriel' moment from Galadriel in her brief interaction with Arondir... Before that though...

Hidden text.

Sure, get close. Sure, whisper... but why did you have to go there? Could have done without the 'kiss'.

​
I thought having Selina Lo's 'Rian', an elf on 'team Elrond' be wasted as the only one empowered to set a convenient oil pot ablaze while being pin-cushioned ala Boromir was a bit shallow. Would have liked to have seen more of her. The best thing about this episode was it concentrated on Eregion and Ost-in-Edhil.

The one frustrating thing about this series this season is when I think they have gotten over most of the S1 cheese, they throw in Ep 4. Then Ep 5 rises again only to run into Ep6. Ep7 was excellent. I'm afraid for Ep 8. Once they all are out, I'll binge the season and see how it holds up. Personally, I give no spoons for the whole Harfoot/Stranger/Stoors/Dark Wizard/Cult-followers/Bombadil storyline. Wish the time was spent on the Eregion/Númenor Stories. Oh well. Overall I think they are line-balling the series as well as, if not better than PJ with Lord of the Rings, and definitely better than The Hobbit.

[ArathornJax]

Spoilers . . .

I have to say I enjoyed episode 7. I LOVE the deceit of Sauron displayed here.

Hidden text.

I enjoyed most of the seventh episode tonight. Fighting was good and it was nice to see Gil-galad in action . . . I loved also the scenes between Sauron and Celebrimbor. Not sure about Galadriel and the nine rings for mortal men or Adar and him getting Nenya. We'll see how that turns out. Is Arondir dead . . .? We'll see on that. One thing I am worried about is that they are going to have Durin III's greed unleash the Balrog which really doesn't happen until the third age (1980). I do hope to see Durin IV come to Elrond's rescue though his army is pushed back to the Western Walls and the Western Gate is sealed. Then Elrond can go north and establish Imladris. We'll see how they handle that but I have to say I did not miss the Rhun story line at all and wish they would stick with the Eregion/Eriador and the Númenor story line. I'll watch it again Saturday night when my granddaughter who is 5, has done to bed.

Hidden text.

Also the kiss between Elrond and Galaderial . . . . just weird as she was married by now and Elrond would wed her daughter . . . again, that was kinda of weird. I could have taken a kiss on the forehead better and connected that with Lord of the Rings better.

[Alatar]

What's our moratorium on spoilers? After the weekend?

Hidden text.

Regarding the kiss, I took it as a simple misdirection to allow him to slip her the brooch. Overall, I really enjoyed the episode while simultaneously wishing for more consistency. Looked like hundreds of Elves in the cavalry charge, but there only seemed to be about 10 left at the end. There also seems to be a distinct difference in the martial prowess of the "hero" Elves and the ordinary Elven soldiers, even though one of the "Hero" Elves is just a common Elven Soldier. Its a tricky balance. PJ has established Elven miracle workers as canon, but you can't have hundreds of them in every scene. Its a problem caused by Legolas in the Movies. Online arguments seem to center on crazy assumptions like "Galadriel is a mighty elf, she could never be captured by mere orcs", simply cause... I dunno? It doesn't help that Tolkien himself was super hazy on loads of things. Exactly how was she powerful? Cause of her Ring? Cause she's a super fighter? Cause she has an army? Cause she's wise? Much easier to just say "Galadriel was one of the most powerful of the Elves". I really liked the Celebrimbor stuff, and I really hope they don't shy away from Sauron marching to battle with his body as a banner. Also interesting that they went with PJs original concept for the One Ring that was storyboarded, showing him mixing his blood with the ore.

Anyway, all this to say, its still fan fiction, but entertaining fan fiction. And I'm enjoying it more than House of Dragons