Episode 4 (Spoilers)

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Dave_LF
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Re: Episode 4 (Spoilers)

Post by Dave_LF »

Wow, that was really excellent. The most "lore" of any episode so far, I think; maybe halfway in they're less worried about scaring new viewers off.

Adar is intriguing. Is he one of the original proto-orcs--an elf tortured, mutilated, and ruined, but still immortal?

Some really nice writing in this one too; I especially liked the line about faith being too fine a thread from which to hang a kingdom (I paraphrase), and another treasure trove of dwarven sayings.

I was also pleased to see that they took they time to address my concerns about Galadriel's visit to the library last week. :D

I do wish they'd chosen to reinvent the orcs for this series--the PBJ archetype just isn't that scary. The masks are a nice touch, but as soon as they start talking, they turn into the bumbling villains from Saturday morning cartoons.
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Re: Episode 4 (Spoilers)

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Someone at TORN speculated that he could be Maeglin; I found that speculation much more intriguing that the Maglor speculation.
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Re: Episode 4 (Spoilers)

Post by Frelga »

That was very good. But, no Harfoots?

I got to say, Elven Fu looks much cooler and less ridiculous than what PJ had Legolas do.


I continue to bet on Halbrand being a future Nazgûl. Other than that, I don't even know.

I like the scene Galadriel got with Míriel. Not sure what the point was of making Isildur fail his sailing test. Isn't his family supposed to NOT try to go West?

Are we seeing Galadriel's character growth? A bit clumsy, but I'll take it.
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Re: Episode 4 (Spoilers)

Post by kzer_za »

I'm going to be brief for once, for now. As fantasy TV, this was pretty good and the best episode so far. I still wouldn't call it must-see TV, but I enjoyed it.

As Tolkien? This show just doesn't feel like Tolkien taken as a whole to me, more of a Tolkien/D&D-derived fantasy world (an above average one, to be clear - some non-Tolkien elf-and-dwarf fantasy is just hauling out one-dimensional tropes, some still has some creative spark to it, this would be the latter). Some good Tolkien references and poetic Tolkienesque moments, but it just doesn't capture the Second Age the way I was hoping this show would in the early stages. I do think the showrunners are sincere and have their heart in the right place (and as I said, there are moments that are quite good) and I don't know how much Amazon may be at fault behind the scenes, but the fundamental structure just does not work for me as an adaptation. There is more I might say about characters and themes, but I will hold off on that for now.

But as TV, I am more hopeful about how the rest of the season will turn out than I was last week.

I realize there are people who would say the same about the Jackson adaptations (which I am a fan of and consider generally successful adaptations, while still having quibbles and criticisms with them of course).
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Re: Episode 4 (Spoilers)

Post by Eldy »

Frelga wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 7:29 amNot sure what the point was of making Isildur fail his sailing test. Isn't his family supposed to NOT try to go West?
Besides what seems like a fairly standard "son is afraid of never having his own identity if he follows in his father's footsteps" storyline, the family dynamic is an intriguing inversion of the relationship between Elendil and Herendil (the precursor of Isildur) in The Lost Road. In that tale, Elendil held to the traditional Faithful perspective as best he could in unfriendly times, while Herendil was at the very least flirting with the idea that maybe the King's Men were on to something. In ROP, Elendil appears to be distancing himself from his Faithful identity, while Isildur—and the apparently older Anárion—are more interested in reclaiming that heritage. Of course, it's also possible Elendil is Faithful and just playing his cards close to his chest, but if so, his younger son appears not to be in on the act. Which, given what we've seen of show!Isildur so far, isn't necessarily a poor decision on his father's part. :P
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Re: Episode 4 (Spoilers)

Post by Heliona »

Well, I wasn't quite so keen on this episode. The Númenor storyline seemed very slow to me, although I did like the premonitions.

I really like the Elrond and Durin storyline. I can't believe that Elrond would betray Durin, particularly since he swore in his father's name. I suspect that Celebrimbor finds out mithril from some other source.

Halbrand isn't really in it enough for me to form more of an opinion, but there's a theory that he will become King of the Mountains aka King of the Dead, which is interesting and feels perhaps a bit more likely than a Nazgûl considering how they're trying to make him seem slightly likeable.

Once again, I didn't miss the Harfoots at all. :D
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Re: Episode 4 (Spoilers)

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I'm sure that there will be plenty of Harfoots for you and I to not be thrill with next episode!
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Re: Episode 4 (Spoilers)

Post by Frelga »

I think Halbrand being likeable does not preclude him becoming a Nazgûl. I don't recall any indication that the Ringwraiths have been evil men originally, any more than the Elves who took the Rings. Rather, I think it's more that their fate was similar to what would have happened to Boromir if the had succeeded in taking the One Ring. In fact, him being likeable but pragmatic would make his eventual corruption more poignant.

However, King of the Dead is also a plausible theory that I have not considered.
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Re: Episode 4 (Spoilers)

Post by samaranth »

Hello again (after quite a long time…)

I have been enjoying RoP so far, but it’s a little fine-edged. I’ve had to consciously set aside the known chronology of the Second Age, and also (more-or-less) accept that sometimes one character is going to be telling another character’s story and at a different time. I keep remembering PJ’s Osgiliath, and the ‘we shouldn’t even be here’ feeling. It’s that dramatic expediency thing.

I enjoyed this episode particularly because of the greater focus on Númenor, which is just stunning to look at. (Not least because the colour palette, especially the deep blue, is so beautiful.) The premonitions were really well done, I think, as was the depiction of the White Tree.

I thought this episode did a better job of combining exposition with much greater character development. I like Elendil, who is clearly a leader in waiting, and with parental responsibilities (!). And I was intrigued by Adar - who he might be, his relationship to Sauron (Mouth of Sauron, perhaps?)…and why he allowed Arondir to leave.

Other high points were Elrond talking about his father, and also Disa’s Plea to the Rocks. Both very emotive.

I think that King of the Dead has a lot of merit as a theory for Halbrand. Not innately evil (though the fight scene in Ep3 was pretty vicious). To quote back, I think a servant of the Enemy would seem fairer and feel fouler. Exponentially so for the enemy himself.

This is so different to PJs movies, where we knew how the story ended, and what happened to each of the characters. We knew the arc. In RoP we have known names but with new backstories (although some knowledge of ultimate endings) added to a whole bunch of original characters - and we are still seeing how they all fit together.

So much speculation! Which is, of course, why I’ve stepped out of the Hof shadows. I do so enjoy the discussions here. :)
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Re: Episode 4 (Spoilers)

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

So pleased to see you here, Sam! That is one unambiguously good thing about the new show. :D
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Re: Episode 4 (Spoilers)

Post by samaranth »

Thanks V. :) It's good to be back.
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Re: Episode 4 (Spoilers)

Post by Inanna »

samaranth wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:37 am This is so different to PJs movies, where we knew how the story ended, and what happened to each of the characters. We knew the arc. In RoP we have known names but with new backstories (although some knowledge of ultimate endings) added to a whole bunch of original characters - and we are still seeing how they all fit together.
Exactly, sam! I am quite enjoying this aspect of RoP. And hi!! :-).

Yes, it is Tolkien-adjacent, but just to hear and see those stories and names sends tingles down my spine sometimes. I loved Elrond's reflection on Eärendil. I was like "oooh, yes, of course!" Coming from someone who stopped watching TV years ago, I'm actually grateful that this show is there and I am enjoying it so much.

Really liked Episode 4. Disa's singing was lovely. Númenor and Khazad-dûm continue to amaze - as do their story arcs. I find myself holding my breath at times. I also liked the pace of Episode 4. The whole Galadriel's face-opening clouds-face-clouds-face-clouds in the first two episodes (was it in 1 or 2?) had really annoyed me.

I did find it surprising that the falling flowers of the White Tree brought such a turn-around of Númenor's heart. Míriel's fear and reaction made sense, but the people, not so much. But then it is never true that an entire nation (however small) holds one belief. Also I wonder this is how Pharazon becomes Ar-Pharazôn; Míriel is more or less disposed from the throne while away.

I didn't miss the Harfoots at all.
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Re: Episode 4 (Spoilers)

Post by Frelga »

I didn't think anyone but Míriel (and Galadriel in the palantír) saw the petals. It changed Míriel's mind, and then she convinced the people with, IMO, a bit sketchy logic. Probably the support from Pharazon was more important, and he had his own reasons to see her gone.

Whether this feels like Tolkien is sure to be a personal reaction. With PJ LOTR, we had the text, although we could still argue how Tolkien might have envisioned it on screen and what changes he would find appropriate. But there's no text, so we are really down to conjecture and gut feeling on whether the show is Tolkien enough, and I don't know if there is any objective way to evaluate it, or if it's worthwhile to try.
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Re: Episode 4 (Spoilers)

Post by Inanna »

Huh? The petals falling from the tree when Galadriel was setting off in the boat? That was real.
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Re: Episode 4 (Spoilers)

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

But I thought that it was only Míriel who was influenced by it, and made the decision to assist Galadriel as a result. But hey, I was the one who had to rewatch the scene to understand why Galadriel was back by Míriel's side.
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Re: Episode 4 (Spoilers)

Post by Inanna »

Correct. She was the only one influenced (We think); but everyone saw them Fall. She evokes them falling as she starts her speech about losing favor with the Valar.
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Re: Episode 4 (Spoilers)

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Right.
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Re: Episode 4 (Spoilers)

Post by Aravar »

I think Elendil reacted to the petals too.

I think Pharazon's speech was better at setting out the Númenórean sense of superiority, rather than the lazy "they took our jobs" them in the previous episode. The series still has not come to grips with the other side of the coin: fear of death and the envy of the elves' deathlessness.

I thought the Elrond/Durin interaction came off as unintentionally childish: my dad's better than your dad sort of thing.

Did anyone else think that the view of the construction from Celebrimbor's window was a deliberate echo of Bruegel's painting of the Tower of Babel?
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Re: Episode 4 (Spoilers)

Post by Frelga »


Aravar wrote:
Did anyone else think that the view of the construction from Celebrimbor's window was a deliberate echo of Bruegel's painting of the Tower of Babel?
I did! (Or rather I thought it looked like "that painting" but couldn't remember which specific painting it was.)
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Re: Episode 4 (Spoilers)

Post by Inanna »

I had never seen that painting, but now having googled it, I agree!
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