Episode 4 (Spoilers)

[Eldy]

I think Pharazon's speech was better at setting out the Númenórean sense of superiority, rather than the lazy "they took our jobs" them in the previous episode. The series still has not come to grips with the other side of the coin: fear of death and the envy of the elves' deathlessness.

Yeah, my mind involuntarily ran through all the "they're taking our JERBS" memes I've seen during Tamar's rant, which is not a good thing IMO. I think reducing the Númenóreans' resentment to something so prosaic misses the point. It is, however, in keeping with ROP's diminishment of the role of the Valar, who were the primary focus of Númenórean grievances in the books. The Eldar of Eressëa were demonized as "spies of the Valar," but the Eldar of Middle-earth were not treated as enemies—which is not to say they were loved by the King's Men.

(Insert obligatory disclaimer that I don't think changes are automatically bad, I just think making this so mundanely political is less interesting than the fundamentally religious tensions in the books.)

I thought the Elrond/Durin interaction came off as unintentionally childish: my dad's better than your dad sort of thing.

I got a different impression: I think Elrond was trying to display empathy for Durin III's complicated feelings about his father, while also encouraging him to take the opportunity Elrond doesn't have. Or at least, Elrond wanted to be seen as empathetic. I think it came across well, though, and hope it's not undercut by future duplicitousness.

[Frelga]

It is, however, in keeping with ROP's diminishment of the role of the Valar, who were the primary focus of Númenórean grievances in the books. The Eldar of Eressëa were demonized as "spies of the Valar," but the Eldar of Middle-earth were not treated as enemies—which is not to say they were loved by the King's Men.

I've been wondering how much of this information the showrunners are allowed to use. I don't recall to what extent the Valar and the history of Númenor are discussed in the "permitted" sources, and I don't know if the show can even obliquely refer to the material it doesn't have, or if they are supposed to pretend complete ignorance.

[Eldy]

I've been wondering how much of this information the showrunners are allowed to use. I don't recall to what extent the Valar and the history of Númenor are discussed in the "permitted" sources, and I don't know if the show can even obliquely refer to the material it doesn't have, or if they are supposed to pretend complete ignorance.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

IIRC, Peter Jackson leaned up against the limits of what he had he rights to at times (which is not a criticism of him), but he wasn't working directly with the Tolkien Estate. I've wondered before if that might make Amazon more cautious about generously interpreting their rights, but on the other hand, we've heard that the Estate is giving case-by-case permission to use some posthumously published material. I don't think that had been officially confirmed the last time I tried to verify it, but Amazon's use of the map of Númenor seems to point to them having access, since that comes from Unfinished Tales. (I recently saw a paperback edition of LOTR that included the Númenor map, but I don't think that'd have much bearing on the Estate's deal with Amazon, since it's absent from the mainline hardcover editions.)

For what it's worth, the brief history of Númenor in Appendix A mentions the Valar a number of times. There's not much detail, and it doesn't distinguish between Númenor's relations with the Eldar of Eressëa and of Middle-earth, and I suppose it could be read to make out the Númenórean–Valar split as more about power than religion (not that those two concepts are exactly unrelated), but it's hard for me to set aside what we know from other texts when reading the Appendices.

[Frelga]

Yes, I think it's part of the challenge for the fans of Tolkien's writing outside LotR and Hobbit. If you know what is supposed to happen, it's hard to be satisfied when the show deviates from the prohibited material.

This is part of the reason why I stayed away from Silm and UT in anticipation of the show. Fortunately, my memory is not what it used to be.

[Inanna]

I concur with Eldy. I thought it was empathetic - “talk to your Dad while you can. I wasn’t able to”.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

As I said before, I thought it was the best scene in the show so far.

[Eldy]

I have a general policy of not watching ROP videos on YouTube, but I took a chance on this one that I saw shared on another forum, and I think it makes a good argument. I'm not totally convinced, but I can no longer classify the Sauron = Halbrand theory with the likes of Sauron = Disa.

[Alatar]

Pretty convincing argument, apart from the suggestion that a line in the book (not movie) is being deliberately referenced as a hint that Galadriel first heard that line from Sauron. Thats a stretch at best.

[kzer_za]

I think Pharazon's speech was better at setting out the Númenórean sense of superiority, rather than the lazy "they took our jobs" them in the previous episode. The series still has not come to grips with the other side of the coin: fear of death and the envy of the elves' deathlessness.

Yeah, my mind involuntarily ran through all the "they're taking our JERBS" memes I've seen during Tamar's rant, which is not a good thing IMO. I think reducing the Númenóreans' resentment to something so prosaic misses the point. It is, however, in keeping with ROP's diminishment of the role of the Valar, who were the primary focus of Númenórean grievances in the books. The Eldar of Eressëa were demonized as "spies of the Valar," but the Eldar of Middle-earth were not treated as enemies—which is not to say they were loved by the King's Men.

Yeah, "death and the desire for deathlessness" is the core theme of the Second Age (and the legendarium, but it's most explicit in the Second). It's not entirely absent so far, but (especially in Númenor's case) it's been pushed mostly to background and subtext. Instead xenophobia appears to be Númenor's root problem. Which...sure, it's there to a degree in Tolkien. But it's been elevated to the main thing in a way that marginalizes the actual primary issues, and "taking our jobs" is a very modern form of xenophobia.

The optimistic hope would be that maybe they're just waiting to foreground the issues of death and immortality till later. Which, well, maybe. But Númenor's long lifespan hasn't even been mentioned yet IIRC, and while it probably will be dropped in eventually I'm not sure it'll ever be a major plot point.

[Frelga]

I would like them to work the theme of the fear of death into the show, although I do not object to it addressing current issues instead. I do think it would have been too much of an info dump at this point. "Get the Elf off the island" is clear and simple. Explaining the whole deal with the Valar to an audience most of which never heard the word is complicated.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I don't think that there is any question that they will work the theme of the fear of death into the show, it is just a question of how much they emphasize it and how well they do it.

[Inanna]

We got an inkling of it in this last episode - about how elves never die and so well, no job openings, eh?

[Smaug's voice]

If I'm honest, I'd like the theme of the Númenórean's desire for deathlessness to make its way into the story more gradually. Clearly due to the time compression they're reworking and rearranging a lot of the events and ideas of the Second Age to a specific generation. I don't think the Numenoreans' envy of Elvish immortality is going to be the same as depicted in the books, but it'll be there in some form and I think they're playing the long game.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Remember that this is a five season show. People are expecting things to happen soon that are not going to happen soon. They have a lot of time to develop things.