Episode 3 (Spoilers)

[Voronwë the Faithful]

So far I have liked each successive episode more than the last, so that is a good sign. Unlike most people, I really dislike the Harfoot storyline and the whole ridiculous "Stranger" thing. Otherwise, I really liked this episode. Númenor is beyond spectacular and much of concern about Elendil's backround has assuaged. I liked his interactions with Galadriel quite a bit. I'll have more to say later, but I thought I would through this thread up so that people had a place to comment when they see the episode.

[Eldy]

Spoilerish thoughts on episode 3, which I watched last night:

Hidden text.

Is show!Anárion older than Isildur? That's the sense I got, since Anárion seems to have already gone through the life stage Isildur is in. It'll be interesting to see what, if any, implications of this change there are down the line.

Míriel and Pharazôn's discussion of Elendil seems to put to rest the idea that the show's version of the House of Valandil has any particular importance compared to other noble houses. Hard to see how they could include their descent from Silmariën in light of this, except through the generous application of handwavium.

I really did not like the throne room scene. Míriel is the (acting) head of state of arguably the world's greatest power, and she's just ... standing around chatting with people, until Elendil strolls in unannounced, with two complete unknowns trailing after him, and walks right up to her. Where is the pomp, the ceremony, the sense that this is the legal and administrative nucleus of a massive colonial empire, not a town hall?

On that note, maybe show!Númenor isn't a massive colonial empire? I'm not sure what to make of Míriel's line that it had been a long time since Númenórean ships were permitted to sail to Middle-earth for the sake of an Elf, but it seems to suggest that sailing to Middle-earth is something that requires special permission, rather than happening as a matter of course. But this is a heavily maritime society (as confirmed by Lloyd Owen in interviews) with nowhere to sail except Middle-earth, so what gives? If the rule is just that Númenóreans can't do favors for Elves, Míriel expressed that in a strange way.

Apparently Tar-Palantir was deposed in a coup? That Míriel was either involved or complicit in, given she ended up in charge? But she still considers him a confidante, and seems to be making decisions based in part on his prophecies? Huh.

I hadn't really been on the "Halbrand is just bargain bin Aragorn" train before now, but episode 3 did its damnedest to convert me to that camp. I'd rather not see secret royalty plotlines to begin with, but Halbrand's specific anxieties about his ancestry come across as a deliberate invocation of movie!Aragorn. Nonetheless, I remain curious to learn more about his character. Did he learn to fight because of his ancestry—i.e., is/was there a faction in the Southlands trying to prepare him for greatness?—or is it something he learned by necessity because he "chafes against commonality" (or whatever Galadriel's wording was) and made a habit of getting into fights?

The show appears to have conflated Armenelos and Rómenna into a single port/capital city. Not a particularly consequential change, of course, and I'm only remarking on it because of I've spent an inordinate amount of time cataloging things we know about Númenor. The city being built on cliffs is in keeping with Tolkien's description of Númenor's coastline; one imagines the snaking harbor Elendil's ship sailed through as the show's version of the Firth of Rómenna.

Galadriel seemed to imply that Elves used to visit Númenor from Middle-earth. This is not something Tolkien wrote about, and while I know plenty of people imagine it happening anyway (Elrond visiting or at least corresponding with Elros is a common element of early Second Age fanfiction), I'm inclined to think it was very uncommon, if it happened at all, and only after the resumption of contact in II.600. My headcanon is that the Valar forbade it.

On that note, while we finally got a mention of the Valar! They still appear to be curiously far in the background, though. My boyfriend speculates this is because Amazon didn't want the show to touch on religious themes too explicitly, which I suppose is plausible. It could be for fear of offending audience sensibilities, though I think it might also be because religion is such a subtle background element in LOTR, to the point of many readers missing it entirely. Unfortunately, that's one of the major differences between Tolkien's Second and Third Age works, and I think it'd be a shame if the show continues to dance around the topic. Then again, it was created by people who claim to think it doesn't feel like Middle-earth without Hobbits.

Do Númenórean archivists have access to Google reverse image search? Galadriel previously told us none of the Elves knew anything about Sauron's sigil, and IIRC the document found in the House of Lore did not directly connect the drawing to Sauron, or to Finrod's mutilated corpse. Also, why would Sauron leave a clue to his doomsday plan on the corpse of an enemy?

The whole thing about Nori's family possibly being left behind because her father has a sprained (broken?) ankle rang false to me. I admit, I know very little about historical nomadic peoples, but surely this is not the first time a Hobbit has sustained an ankle injury at a bad time, and I can't imagine their social bonds being so loose that it's considered acceptable to abandon someone to die because of that.

This is probably nitpicking, but nomadic proto-Hobbits having surnames and literacy also strikes me as odd. Though, based on pre-release interviews with actors, maybe we're meant to assume these are relics of a historical settled existence, before they went into hiding after a war (which I still maintain was implicitly the War of Wrath, for as little sense as I think that makes). But if so, that implies they had contact with the Eldar and/or Edain, unless the Harfoots developed literacy independently. Which I really hope was not the case.

It was good to finally get a glimpse of the show's version of Orcish society, though it continues to be (as in both the book and movie versions of LOTR) only their military, and only as viewed from their enemies' (the free peoples') point of view. For that reason, I'll wait to pass judgment. It was nice to see Orcs' vulnerability to sunlight being a relevant factor, though surely it would have been wiser on their part to make the prisoners work at night, or at least dusk and dawn, rather than the middle of the day when their overseers are at their most vulnerable.

I enjoyed this week's Elvish ninja action sequence. Arondir is a pretty cool dude, and his comrades acquitted themselves well, even though it proved not to be enough in the end.

Thank God the next episode preview showed Elrond. I really missed seeing the show's best subplot this week.

I think there was some other things I wanted to comment on, but if so, they've slipped my mind since last night. I wanted to approach ROP with an open mind, giving it a fair chance to impress me on its own merits regardless of changes from the source material, but this episode was a much greater test of my resolve on that front than the first two, since Númenóreans and Orcs are two of my main Second Age interests. I'm thus not sure if this episode was, in fact, worse than the premiere, or if I'm just being pickier about it. A rewatch might help me come to a firmer opinion, though I don't have any immediate plans for that. Regardless, there's no question that I'm sticking with the show. I never thought I'd see Númenor depicted onscreen, and it's exciting to get to experience that now, despite my reservations.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Galadriel seemed to imply that Elves used to visit Númenor from Middle-earth. This is not something Tolkien wrote about ... .

He writes about Elves visiting Númenor in Aldarion and Erendis.

[Eldy]

He writes about Elves visiting Númenor in Aldarion and Erendis.

Visiting from Middle-earth, though? The only Elvish visitors I recall in Aldarion and Erendis were the ones at the title characters' wedding, who were implied to be from Eressëa, since when Erendis later sent away the birds they gave her as a gift, they flew west.* I could certainly be forgetting something, though. Unfortunately, I'm about to head out so I don't have time to check more thoroughly.


*Specifically, they flew from Armenelos to Andúnië, and then "to the sea, back to the land whence they came."

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Of course you are right. I wasn't thinking. I'm pretty sure that I even have made the point before that Tolkien never wrote about Elves from Middle-earth going to Númenor when we first heard about Galadriel going there.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Míriel and Pharazôn's discussion of Elendil seems to put to rest the idea that the show's version of the House of Valandil has any particular importance compared to other noble houses. Hard to see how they could include their descent from Silmariën in light of this, except through the generous application of handwavium.

Well, at least they confirmed that Elendil came from a "formerly noble family" (or something like that). And the way that Elendil said to Galadriel "you knew Elros?" made me think that maybe, just maybe, they will eventually confirm that Elendil really is descended from Elros. I just don't see what they would have to gain to not do so, and there is so much to lose. But we'll see, I guess.

[Eldy]

It's good to hear your thoughts, Voronwë! Thanks for reading and replying to my ramble.

Well, at least they confirmed that Elendil came from a "formerly noble family" (or something like that). And the way that Elendil said to Galadriel "you knew Elros?" made me think that maybe, just maybe, they will eventually confirm that Elendil really is descended from Elros. I just don't see what they would have to gain to not do so, and there is so much to lose. But we'll see, I guess.

Yeah, it could definitely be worse; being former nobility leaves open certain possibilities. But I can't see Elendil being the direct heir of Silmariën('s son) yet having fallen out of the social elite. That would be a very significant change in itself.

Descent from Elros is a point of interest for me in general. It's hard to say much given that we don't know exactly how long the Second Age has been in the show's continuity, nor the average age at which Númenóreans become parents, but Númenor is clearly a well-established society. Even with conservative estimates, there are undoubtedly plenty of commoners who are descended from Elros (though, as with Primary World descent from e.g. Charlemagne, few would be able to trace an unbroken line of descent), and most noble families could probably find at least one royal in their documented ancestry.

[Eldy]

Unlike most people, I really dislike the Harfoot storyline and the whole ridiculous "Stranger" thing.

I'm in a similar boat, as a Harfoot disliker. I don't think it's necessary to have Hobbit POV characters in order to "feel like Middle-earth," though clearly a good percentage of the audience feels differently. I actually like Nori and Poppy well enough, but we're nearly halfway through the first season and their storyline feels like it hasn't really started yet. I also strongly dislike the show's presentation of Harfoots from a worldbuilding perspective. I get that they wanted them to feel recognizably Hobbitish, but the end result is grafting aspects of the Third Age onto the Second Age setting whether it makes sense or not. Nori and Poppy's tribe has maybe 100-150 members on the high end, which is small enough that (a) there's no reason for surnames to have developed,* and (b) everyone would be cousins, making their willingness to abandon someone to death because of a sprained ankle even more ridiculous. Sure, potential death is more dramatic than, say, needing to leave behind 5% of the tribe's food stores (until the Stranger proves himself a friend by agreeing to pull the wagon), but I would prefer ROP avoid excessively contrived melodrama.


* I would be fine with patronymics, which are a well-established part of many Middle-earth cultures, well beyond the borders of the incongruously Victorian society of the Shire (and Bree).

[Snowdog]

The episode was quite enjoyable... especially the Númenórean parts. We have 'Queen-regent' Míriel and 'Chancellor' Pharazôn, so they are bumping Tar palantír's reign and only calling Míriel 'regent'. I'm trying to visualize how Pharazôn 'forces' marriage on Míriel here because as portrayed, it looks like Míriel would kick Pharazôn's ass. Will be interesting to see how that is written.

Really liked them naming Anárion in the 'family dynamic' talk with Isildur and Eärien. I don't mind, and even like the fact they brought in Eärien as an OC sister. Tolkien made few mentions of daughters in most family lines so the addition of this bit of fanfic is nice. For some reason I got the vibe that Anárion is going to be the 'older' sibling in this as he had already 'quit the naval academy' while Isildur is a naval apprentice? I'm ok with it either way.

Echoing Eldy, I too think they are getting too wrapped up with the Harfoot storyline. I like them, but to me it seems that too much of the limited time is being used on them. I could have done with 'less'.

A am really liking the Orcs. Much more sinister than the PJ Orcs. I was a bit 'meh'ish with the warg and will give a point to PJ for his portrayal of them. Am interested in where Arondir's storyline goes, and with the halfway point coming next week, am thinking some serious stuff will be forthcoming to leave the end of the season in suspense.

I think the storytelling is a bit rough in places, and maybe binge-re-watching through the eight episodes once they all dropped will help it some of the inconsistencies I detect.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Eldy, I couldn't agree more about the Harfoots.

Snowdog,, thanks for your thoughts. To you catch the little bit at the end where Míriel is talking to her father? They are setting up a different dynamic between Míriel and Pharazon then what Tolkien wrote.

[Dave_LF]

Halbrand’s backstory, if that’s what it is, earned the series its first serious eyeroll from me. I could tolerate the fact that the character looked eerily like Viggo’s Aragorn, but to give him nearly copy-paste history and motivations is too much. Hoping there’s a twist.

Also, a king of men with evident darkness lurking within? Are we looking at a future ringwraith?

I liked the color palette in Númenor.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Maybe I wasn't paying strict enough attention, but honestly, I couldn't even follow what they were saying about him being a king of men.

The biggest eyeroll from me was Sadoc Burrows all but giving Bilbo's going-away speech.

[Eldy]

My understanding is that Halbrand is the heir to a (the?) king of the not-yet-Southlanders in the First Age, who swore a blood oath to Morgoth, and whose people were subsequently deported and forced to live under what seem to be bantustans under Elvish military occupation. In previous episodes, the angry young Southlander who confronted Arondir in the bar made a reference to "when the King returns," or something like that, and Halbrand got touchy and denied that his people had a king when Galadriel asked him about it. Halbrand appears ashamed of his ancestor for having sided with Morgoth, and, like movie!Aragorn, fears that this has somehow morally tainted him, as the distant heir. (Why he wears the Southlander royal symbol as a necklace remains to be seen.) However, Galadriel wants him to embrace his heritage and become a leader who can rally his people and save the Southlands from the Orcish menace.

[Snowdog]

Eldy, I couldn't agree more about the Harfoots.

Snowdog, thanks for your thoughts. To you catch the little bit at the end where Míriel is talking to her father? They are setting up a different dynamic between Míriel and Pharazon then what Tolkien wrote.

I've only watched it once so far. Usually do a repeat after a couple days. I'll be paying more attention to the Númenórean parts so will look for that. Also, did anyone catch the puppet show?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Indeed.

[Dave_LF]

A little detail I appreciated: Elendil actually appears to have grey eyes, at least from certain angles.

[kzer_za]

There were parts of this episode I thought were the best so far (outside possibly Khazad-dûm). Númenor was uneven (maybe I'll post more about my reservations later) but had some very good moments, especially visually. I like Elendil's family.

There were also major parts I truly hated, unfortunately. The sort-of-Hobbits just let the injured and sick and weak die and abandon stragglers? Sticking people in the back of the caravan comes across as some kind of weird exercise in social darwinism. My initial reaction is that it's one of the most thematically anti-Tolkien things ever put into an adaptation (not counting games). Possibly worse than Aragorn decapitating a messenger, even. And it's clearly a basic longstanding custom, not something done for safety in extreme circumstances. All while the Harfoots take great pride in how they care for each other. I at least liked the Harfoots as characters at first but they lost a lot of good will this episode.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Yeah, I thought that was truly awful, and truly baffling.

[Eldy]

All while the Harfoots take great pride in how they care for each other.

*chanting*

Nobody goes off trail!
Nobody walks alone!
Nobody gets help when they're hurt!
Nobody goes off trail!
Nobody walks alone!
Nobody gets help when they're hurt!

[Dave_LF]

Halbrand’s backstory, if that’s what it is, earned the series its first serious eyeroll from me. I could tolerate the fact that the character looked eerily like Viggo’s Aragorn, but to give him nearly copy-paste history and motivations is too much. Hoping there’s a twist.

I sort of regret posting this. Or rather, I regret posting just this. I like this show a lot, and my life is better for having a new episode to look forward to every week.