The Kavanaugh controversy

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elengil
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Re: The Kavanaugh controversy

Post by elengil »

Cerin wrote:I find this trial by internet to be absolutely horrifying. It's good to be a nobody in this day and age.
This isn't a trial by internet, it's a bunch of citizens discussing their opinions on a rather large current event that is going to affect us one way or another.

This happened long before the internet. This happened back in the day when there were actual lynchings over nothing more than accusations that didn't actually affect hardly anyone's lives except those torn apart by the mob. It will continue to happen long into the future because people like to share their opinions on topics.

But no matter the words used, this isn't a trial, we are neither judge nor jury, but we are still citizens of this country and have a right to voice our opinions about those who are meant to be at the highest positions of our government. Unless you're not a US citizen, then you're just talkin' smack :P
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Re: The Kavanaugh controversy

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Besides, what's the alternative? The make up of SCOTUS is of, ahem, Supreme importance to Americans of this and next generation. Should we just politely ignore what's happening?
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Re: The Kavanaugh controversy

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For me, at least, it's scrambling for hope. It's true: I don't want him on the Court. For more reasons than I can or will put into a post. And from what I've seen, he actually doesn't deserve to be there—not because of his politics, because of his character.

If he is somehow not confirmed, I'm strongly of the opinion that this country has dodged a bullet. For a while, anyway. The Republicans are likely to hold the Senate, which means they'll just try again after the midterms, and if they take the trouble to choose some rock-ribbed conservative who has impeccable personal character, that's the ball game.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
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Re: The Kavanaugh controversy

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"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Re: The Kavanaugh controversy

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I'm genuinely surprised it took him that long to say that stuff.
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Re: The Kavanaugh controversy

Post by RoseMorninStar »

Cerin wrote:I find this trial by internet to be absolutely horrifying. It's good to be a nobody in this day and age.
Disturbing indeed.
If anyone is promoting 'trial by internet' or trying to skew opinion with public proclamations, it's the president, who should not be making such comments, public or otherwise. His behavior is deplorable and disgusting. Decent men do not behave like this. It's the good ol' boys club. Laughter and derision at the expense of a woman. Ford is only a female, after all. Men are Important and have Important Jobs and Families. Your Sons will be Men and Important. Ford is just an adjunct to a Man, so she doesn't count.

((**Edited; removed personal experience-no need to have that recorded in a public forum in perpetuity**)) Thank you to those who have shown love & support. Right back at you. :grouphug:

This is what Trump is doing (in publicly mocking Christina Ford). No matter what did or did not happen between Ford & Kavanaugh, Trump should let investigators do their job. A full, proper investigation. This type of behavior is not about sex, it is about power, control, submission, and entitlement. Trump knows exactly what he is doing. It's what he always does. He's a bully.

It's been discussed that we cannot beyond doubt tell if someone is telling the truth or how someone might act if they are lying or are falsely accused. I agree. It's something of a no-win situation because, conversely, how does one act when they are concealing guilt of an accusation that has merit? Seldom do they 'fess up. Often it's deny, deny, deny. Vehemently. That is why a proper investigation would be helpful. Character matters. Behavior matters. Especially for a such an important position. While not pointing specifically at Kavanaugh and what he did or did not do, perpetrators of these types of actions are usually indignant and angry at their victims. To justify their behavior they have rationalized their actions, 'they were too young, they couldn't possibly remember anything like that and they are making it up', 'it was too dark, they've mistaken me for someone else', 'they wanted it too', 'they were drunk', 'they were asking for it', 'it doesn't matter because it wasn't full penetration', etc.. etc.. I've heard a great many rationalizations. All that said, Kavanaugh's drinking matters. His character matters. If he drank to the excess that has been hinted at, it could be that he has no recollection of such an event. Or in his eyes (if it occurred) was just a little 'fun'. Victims & perpetrators often see a situation through different lenses. Even the times change our perception of an event.

The whole thing is disgusting and the president and those senators who (essentially) cover their ears and say, "I don't wanna hear this and I don't want to believe it so la-la-la-la I can't hear you" are enabling a miscarriage of justice. They should want to know the truth (as much as is possible) and it should matter.
Last edited by RoseMorninStar on Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Kavanaugh controversy

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Oh, my God, Rose.

Crying here.

Please know that we love you and hear you and believe you.

I cannot imagine what you have been through.

You have so much courage. :hug:
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Re: The Kavanaugh controversy

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And to hell with those who don't believe you or belittle what you say. MY GOD.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Re: The Kavanaugh controversy

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Re: The Kavanaugh controversy

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Rose, I don't have the stamina to participate in this discussion but I am following it, and I want, I must, acknowledge that I've heard you.

I am sorrowful and angry on your behalf.

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Re: The Kavanaugh controversy

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Rose, what Imp said. Big hugs and kisses. I’m sorry...
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Re: The Kavanaugh controversy

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Both Sen. Flake and Sen. Collins rebuked Mr. Trump for his comments.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/03/politics ... index.html

Though I doubt that it will have any impact on their votes.

Rose, :hug:
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Re: The Kavanaugh controversy

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Rose, :hug: :hug: :hug:


I have been following this conversation here, but I haven't participated. I've mentioned on b77 that this past week has been difficult for me, bringing up a lot of difficult and ugly feelings. These mostly stemmed from the comments I am reading and hearing around me, from total strangers (shouldn't matter but it does) to family members and friends. To hear my mom, herself a victim of sexual abuse, dismiss Dr. Ford and make fun of her—all the while knowing my situation and her mother's situation which was similar to mine—I'm still not sure how to process that.

In any case, I wanted to respond to Rose, and I thought elengil's post was good, too.
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Re: The Kavanaugh controversy

Post by Primula Baggins »

:hug: for Lali. :( Maybe your mom has chosen this way to distance herself from the truth of her own experience, and thus other people's as well. Some people seem to go this way, and I wonder if some of Blasey Ford's most virulent critics are similarly denying their own experiences.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Re: The Kavanaugh controversy

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:hug: for those with reopened wounds.
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Re: The Kavanaugh controversy

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Lali and Rose. :hug:
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.

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elengil
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Re: The Kavanaugh controversy

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To those who have opened up here: :hug:
To those who have a story but have chosen not to share it: :hug:
To those who simply accept that these things happen and are true: :hug:
To everyone else... :hug:
The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.

"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
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Re: The Kavanaugh controversy

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To elengil: :love:
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Re: The Kavanaugh controversy

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I genuinely don't understand why so many people's first reaction is to believe that people saying this happened to them are lying. I find that very strange. Of course some people have lied about such things, but why would that be anyone's first assumption about a person? I don't understand.
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Re: The Kavanaugh controversy

Post by Cerin »

What gives you the impression that is a common first reaction?

I don't think the Kavanaugh situation is a good example, because there is an unusual degree of political motivation in this case to discredit the nominee, and that automatically taints any accusation, particularly one where substantiating details can't be provided because it happened decades ago, and taints each and every reaction to the accusation.

I wonder how many people fervently crusading for Ford to be believed desire with equal fervor that an arch conservative be appointed to the court? This situation is poisoned by politics.
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