Lord of the Rings series!?

For discussion of Amazon's new television show "The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power"
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Lord of the Rings series!?

Post by Stranger Wings »

Frelga wrote:A large part of my criticism of PJ's alterations was that often, a better option was right there in canon. For example, the comically panicked eye vs. Tolkien's image of a great shadowy form stretching a menacing arm.

That's not the case here. This show is built on the thinnest textual framework. I had expected them to cling to it and fill it with fluff. I had expected it to be silly, maybe even stupid. Instead, they made bold choices, with wholly invented storylines and characters that nevertheless promise to weave into a beautiful tapestry.

Most importantly, it's fun.
This 100 times. Bold, creative choices that instead of being purely derivative of Tolkien, also dip into the wells of Tolkien’s inspiration. I see William Morris all over Lindon, for example.

There’s just something so refreshingly creative about many of the visual and narrative approaches it takes. The harfoots could have been cheap hobbit fan service, and instead we get actual anthropological depth. And there are not just superficial accent differences across peoples. There are wholly different linguistic worlds for the elves, the harfoots, the Southlanders, the Numenoreans, the dwarves.

This show is a creative freight train, IMO. Could it still fly off the rails? Maybe! But at least it’ll be exciting.


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Re: Lord of the Rings series!?

Post by Stranger Wings »

Some examples of great little sayings from the harfoots:

"A tongue-lashing, if you don't mind your own cartwheels."

"Mind your own fire, Malva."

"Have the wheels come off your cart?"
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Re: Lord of the Rings series!?

Post by kzer_za »

I actually like PJ’s use use of the flaming eye as a unified cinematic motif, besides the unecessary searchlight anyway. I’m aware it’s not actually canonically correct and Sauron has a physical body in the late Third Age (that said, the “outstretched arm” can easily be read metaphorically), but I think it worked cinematically. And I think the fact that it’s so iconic 20 years later shows it resonated with a lot of people.

But I realize this is a contentious topic among invested fans and a lot of people feel differently.
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Re: Lord of the Rings series!?

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Stranger Wings wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 10:16 pm Some examples of great little sayings from the harfoots:

"A tongue-lashing, if you don't mind your own cartwheels."

"Mind your own fire, Malva."

"Have the wheels come off your cart?"
There is a lot of lines I have liked in the dialogue of the show. None of those were among them. ;)

What was the line that Galadriel said to Halbrand to the effect of he wouldn't be be able to recite in his lifetime all the names of those that she has lost in the wars against the Enemy? I thought that was well done. And I liked almost all of her interaction with Elendil, which I did not expect.

Honestly, it is way too early to judge the show at this point. We've seen 3 of 40 hours. It would be like judging FotR from the Prologue only. All we can give is first impressions.
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Re: Lord of the Rings series!?

Post by kzer_za »

To an extent, but I do think at least judging each season as a unit is fair and we're close to 50% for the first. (Also I think you mean 40 hours).

At any rate, I have decided I will very likely finish the first season to make sure I give the show a fair chance. (Since I'll be in Europe most of October the last 2 or 3 episodes would be after it's done). The jury is out whether I go further - with my current feelings plus the Amazon factor I would likely not, but it's possible that could change depending on how things develop.
Last edited by kzer_za on Sun Sep 11, 2022 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lord of the Rings series!?

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Yeah, 40 hours, not 50 (I edited my post accordingly).
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Re: Lord of the Rings series!?

Post by Stranger Wings »

My ranking thus far:

1. Episode One (absolutely love the Lindon scenes - and the tree cemetery with the lights of the fireworks creating an iridescent shimmer among the tree canopy is the most beautiful scene of Tolkien adaptation I have yet seen - plus, there's Huan and Lúthien and the Helm of Dor-lómin!). Nori's look of total awe and fear while staring into the fiery crater was absolutely stellar acting, too (not to mention her scream in episode 2).

2. Episode Three: Númenor. Enough said. Oh, and dragon-skin, elf helm-wearing orcs. Absolutely gorgeous, layered design work in this episode.

3. Episode Two: I love the Elrond-Celebrimbor-Durin and Disa plot, but I felt this one had scenes that felt the least Tolkienesque. The stuff on the raft, in particular, but also the "horror shack" with the horror trope-filled orc in the kitchen thing. That was tense and frightening, but didn't feel at all like Middle Earth.
Last edited by Stranger Wings on Sun Sep 11, 2022 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lord of the Rings series!?

Post by Stranger Wings »

Voronwë the Faithful wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 11:02 pm
Stranger Wings wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 10:16 pm Some examples of great little sayings from the harfoots:

"A tongue-lashing, if you don't mind your own cartwheels."

"Mind your own fire, Malva."

"Have the wheels come off your cart?"
There is a lot of lines I have liked in the dialogue of the show. None of those were among them. ;)

What was the line that Galadriel said to Halbrand to the effect of he wouldn't be be able to recite in his lifetime all the names of those that she has lost in the wars against the Enemy? I thought that was well done. And I liked almost all of her interaction with Elendil, which I did not expect.

Honestly, it is way too early to judge the show at this point. We've seen 3 of 40 hours. It would be like judging FotR from the Prologue only. All we can give is first impressions.
I love a lot of non-harfoot dialogue, of course (particularly from Elrond, Celebrimbor, Galadriel, Durin, Míriel and Elendil), but I mentioned these to show respect for the completely distinctive linguistic worlds the showrunners have created for each culture. They totally and fully commit to that idea, and it works wonders for me. And feels like a very Tolkienesque exercise.

Not to mention just how...natural it all sounds. This does not have the tinny sound of academic fake language usage. It rings rough and true.
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Re: Lord of the Rings series!?

Post by Inanna »

Linguistically, I really liked the dwarves invoking Aulë. I have noted this technique in a lot of fantasy books I’ve read recently. Instead of “oh God”, there is “Oh <Deity>”. It’s a clever technique - it jumps out at the reader/watcher and makes perfect sense in terms of linguistic evolution.

I did not like the complex Rite and it’s consequences just being put aside.
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Re: Lord of the Rings series!?

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Inanna wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 11:34 pm Linguistically, I really liked the dwarves invoking Aulë. I have noted this technique in a lot of fantasy books I’ve read recently. Instead of “oh God”, there is “Oh <Deity>”. It’s a clever technique - it jumps out at the reader/watcher and makes perfect sense in terms of linguistic evolution.

I did not like the complex Rite and it’s consequences just being put aside.
On the latter, the way I took that is that a central part of the ritual is that one participant proposes the consequences (the punishment) and the other participant has to agree. But whoever sets the punishment has the power to reverse it as well. And given that this is a prince dealing with an elven lord (and an old friend of his, at that) there are obviously mitigating personal and political dynamics at play too. And it's quite realistic for a person at Durin's political level to waive the normal results of such a contest. I also did not see it as a deeply sacred rite, based on the raucous way the dwarf crowd acted. It's a contest of strength for resolving a dispute.

Not to mention that this is essential characterization for Durin. He is being presented as a little different than his fellow dwarves, in contrast to his more conventional father, who remarks that his son has "a little sandstone in his granite when it comes to elves." A great line, and a clear indication that Durin's flexibility with dwarven law and practice may land him in some trouble.

Overall, a great stretch of the show. One of my favorites.
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Re: Lord of the Rings series!?

Post by Frelga »

To me, the fact that different people like some storylines more than others speaks to the strength of the show. Don't like Harfoots? Grab a snack and be back in time for Númenor. (or vice versa, I missed much of Míriel's dialog.)
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Re: Lord of the Rings series!?

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Stranger Wings wrote:And given that this is a prince dealing with an elven lord
Actually Elrond is explicitly (and bizarrely) NOT an Elven Lord, and thus was excluded from a council with the High King that was only for 'Elven Lords'.

Otherwise, I largely agree with what you say about the scene with Durin IV.

X-posted with Frelga, with whom I agree.
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Re: Lord of the Rings series!?

Post by Stranger Wings »

Voronwë the Faithful wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 11:53 pm
Stranger Wings wrote:And given that this is a prince dealing with an elven lord
Actually Elrond is explicitly (and bizarrely) NOT an Elven Lord, and thus was excluded from a council with the High King that was only for 'Elven Lords'.

Otherwise, I largely agree with what you say about the scene with Durin IV.

X-posted with Frelga, with whom I agree.
Right. He's a "Herald" at this point in the story. But that doesn't alter the point. He's a diplomat from the High King of Lindon, and that's what matters (and him being a friend of Durin's, of course).

It doesn't seem bizarre to me that he's a herald, either. Elrond is being given an arc. From Gil-galad's intern to CEO of Imladris Enterprises. ;)
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Re: Lord of the Rings series!?

Post by Frelga »

Only somewhat related but points are made.
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Re: Lord of the Rings series!?

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Frelga wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 11:49 pm To me, the fact that different people like some storylines more than others speaks to the strength of the show. Don't like Harfoots? Grab a snack and be back in time for Númenor. (or vice versa, I missed much of Míriel's dialog.)
I agree! I must say there is very little I don't like. Like always, its character butchering (i.e., butchering in my opinion) that upsets me. How I feel about Galadriel (although to echo myself, we've just met her!) is similar to how I felt about Faramir in TTT. But I don't want to discuss those movies anymore.
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Re: Lord of the Rings series!?

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Nice interview with Ismael Cruz Córdova on Kimmel.

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Re: Lord of the Rings series!?

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I think I posted this in the wrong thread, apologies for that. Too out of touch with posting in forums. :D Just my brief thoughts on the 4 episodes so far. I'll delete the post in the other thread.
______________


So far I think this has been much better than I'd expected it to be based on all the pre-release evidence and promos. And if nothing else this actually made me nostalgic to read Tolkien again so picked up the Sil and UT these past few weeks and have just been going through them rapidly. I can only hope this has the same effect on younger viewers of the show who have read little to none of the books. I was never a big purist at all but over the years the more films I've seen have made me put in the camp that think it's perfectly plausible for something like RoP to be completely un-Tolkienesque and still exist as a good work of art on its own. It hasn't exactly been that case so far but I think it shows *some* promise. I find RoP ultimately a mixed bag in quality but I'm also enjoying it just as it is. And I think it is fair to give the show more time to find it's footing. Almost every good show I've seen has their first season as their weakest since they're still trying to find their audience and an identity. It's nothing I would call as great TV (so far) but the production values and the thin Tolkien veneer just makes for a fun little time with my little young cousins.

What I don't like:

- I don't really dig the short-hair on Elves and it does take away some of the elegance one associates with the Elves, but it's also not a huge issue for me that I can't look past. It's a bit more fun to think that over the 6-7000+ years of Elves, they never went with fashion fads . I definitely think there's a justification behind it by the writers (the High-King Gil-Galad has long flowy hair while the Elves who are not of a noble stature or are just foot soldiers have short hair) but my personal in-universe explanation is simply the fact that the long drawn out war with Morgoth and his remnants was the reason they went with shorter hair for the military advantage. I'm quite enjoying the Elves being much more expressive and full of personality than in PJ's films but in going for shorter hair they lose a lot of their regality. Even shoulder-length hair would have sufficed. And I'm hoping by second season they allow that to grow it out again.
(PS: For some reason Arondir's buzzcut really doesn't bother me. He comes off very Elvish despite the short crop.)


- My major criticism with the show so far has been Galadriel and this isn't from just a Tolkien standpoint but because it drags down the show even as it's own thing. It's great that they wanted to give a more feminist angle to the show but they backtracked because Galadriel's main motivation hinges entirely on the death of her brother, a man (-Elf). Book Galadriel's motivation is already very progressive and having her desire for a kingdom of her own to rule in ME would have made the character itself feel far less generic and layered. Couple that with the fact how much they have washed away the First Age backstory, it makes Show Galadriel feel very generic. And I think Morfydd Clark's doing pretty good in the role, but her storyline and her dialogues have just not been up to the mark.

- the prologue in episode 1 left me very underwhelmed too, despite the great imagery and Sil references. I know it's probably a rights issue but if you can't show the reasons behind the impetus that drive your main character then what's really the point of it? Thanks to that the Noldorin Elves now come off as benevolent heroes displaced from their homelands because they went to fight Morgoth and his accessories.



- One thing that I'm feeling is that the show feels too scattered right from the beginning. I think it would've been much better if the show opened from a single (or atmost two) perspectives and then it grew wider and wider to introduce more of the cultures and the characters. This would also really get us invested in that plotline more fundamentally. Episode 4 is the first time where I felt that it worked on a purely narrative level since it had a thematic line of fathers and sons and their legacy running through all the plotlines (Míriel and palantír, Elrond and Eärendil, the Durins, Orcs and Adar, Elendil and Isildur). So more of that please!



- The lack of texture. This is just something that I find to be a product of the digital age of film so I'm not holding RoP to this alone. But despite the great production and CGI, it all feels too shiny, smooth, airbrushed and clean. This might seem like a little thing but it takes away so much from the weight of history that could be felt in Tolkien's world. I think this was the biggest strength of the LotR films. The halls and ruins and caverns and ships, all felt *lived in* and weathered. Think of just the few glimpses of the streets of Minas Tirth or the broken statues at Parth Galen and compare that to the entirety of Númenor here (I loved seeing Númenor in RoP, I should clarify. But the setting still feels too clean and stagey).


- Númenor in general I'm more mixed about. The sets are grand and magnificent. But in the minor details it doesn't feel real. It just doesn't feel grand enough. Míriel's halls are too small and people can just come in and go out while the Queen is in the middle of a discussion. The costumes make it feel a little like Community theatre too. And I can't help but feel that the extras are not being given good enough direction. (Look at the way the people cheer for Pharazon, for instance. It comes off as too unnatural and forced.)

There are a lot of things I'm loving too of course.

The scenes with Elrond and Durin are some really big highlights for me. Seeing Elrond speak of Eärendil had me with a big grin. Robert Aramayo is really charming in the role and I think is doing (so far!) a more Tolkien-accurate portrayal of Elrond rather than Hugo Waving did. Disa is a great addition. The scene of her singing to the mountains in that beautiful voice really gave me chills.

I think both the Dwarves and Orcs are clear highlights of the show. Massive improvements over the original trilogy (I do like the orcs in LotR but I never found them interesting as a culture there, and also just...not scary enough.) And unlike Númenor, the Dwarven culture in Khazad-dûm actually has some of that texture that I talk about. I find Adar very intriguing.

I also like the Arondir and Bronwyn plotline a lot. It just feels so eerie to see "Mordor" actually bustling with people and villages. I also like that Cordova's stunts so far are very much of the Legolas in FotR brand and not Legolas in RotK brand.

Despite my mixed feelings about Númenor, I will say that Elendil seems very perfectly cast. (He feels like a mix of Aragorn and Boromir). And I like the casting of Isildur as well. I also think Episode 4 was much better than Episode 3 in giving Númenor some personality, but I hope it gets even better here on out.

The Harfoots storyline seems pretty divisive here. I like them. But also I want to see what it's really building up to. It's too soon to call their scenes filler and a time-waste since I have no clue what The Stranger storyline is actually building towards. The Harfoots' lifestyle and rules being so harsh is very much an intentional creative decision. I actually do not think they were going to leave Nori's father behind or at the back of the caravan if it was just that. But the punishment was specifically aimed at Nori who endangered the entire tribe by letting in a large, possibly dangerous stranger. I feel that part of the reasoning to show the Harfoots' struggle is to highlight just now special a place The Shire became to the Hobbits later on. Sadoc's speech was meant to highlight those specific hardships imo more than just giving a nod to Bilbo's speech. In the long history of the Hobbits, the Shire became like an oasis compared to their thousands of years of nomadic uncertainties. So no wonder once they settled down, the Hobbits became parochial to a fault.


Overall: I'd say Episode 4 > Episode 2 > Episode 3 > Episode 1
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Re: Lord of the Rings series!?

Post by elengil »

Eldy wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:03 pm I'm biased here, in that I vastly prefer the idea of Gil-galad as an Arafinwean,
Absolutely agree!

For several reasons -

First because it creates a very appealing symmetry with an Arafinwean as High King in Middle-earth while Arafin himself is High King in Valinor

Second because he's the brother who appears to avoid all of the infighting between Fëanor and Fingolfin, so to have them basically fight over the crown only for both of them to lose it feels 'right' in this world (though admittedly little 'right' seems to ever happen in the Silm) - but it ties back into the doom of them being dispossessed (which was not aimed solely at Fëanor)

And Third because it makes the High King have the blood of all three kindreds which again creates a kind of nice joining together, and echoes a bit of Elrond's own parentage being of the three houses of the Edain and the three kindreds of Elves.

It's one of the few Silm canon items I gleefully discard to embrace the alternative.
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Re: Lord of the Rings series!?

Post by Eldy »

Official confirmation from Time magazine that Círdan will appear in season two, and he'll have a beard.

https://bit.ly/3dZAD1i

ETA: Replaced the URL with a shortcut after being foiled by the word filter yet again. :P
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Re: Lord of the Rings series!?

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Eldy wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:39 pm Official confirmation from Time magazine that Círdan will appear in season two, and he'll have a beard.

https://bit.ly/3dZAD1i

ETA: Replaced the URL with a shortcut after being foiled by the word filter yet again. :P
Um, Círdan in Season 2

:wooper:
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