2016 United States Election

[Primula Baggins]

But not Carson, despite his only getting about 2% of the vote in NH (half of what Fiorina got, and about a quarter of what Christie got). That is bad news for Cruz, because Carson will still likely siphon off some of the large evangelical vote that Cruz is counting on in South Carolina.

On the Democratic side, Rep. John Lewis, probably the greatest remaining icon of the Civil Rights movement, made some very disparaging remarks about Sanders and his claim to have been part of that movement. Sanders claims to have been an organizer with the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, but Lewis was the chair of the SNCC from 1963 to 1966 and says that he never once met or saw Sanders, but did work with both Hillary and Bill Clinton. Also, the political arm of the Black Congressional Caucus endorsed Clinton, although some of the more left-wing members of the caucus explicitly said that they were not endorsing her individually. Rep. Jim Clyburn, the third ranking member of the Democratic House leadership, and probably the most influential Democratic politician in South Carolina, has made indications that he is likely to endorse her as well. On the other side, Sanders was endorsed by musician, actor, and activist Harry Bellafonte, and had meeting with the Rev. Al Sharpton.

Cross-posted with Primula.

Voronwë, as we have been posting together since 2002, I feel certain that the proprieties would be satisfied if you were to call me Prim.

As for Sanders, it's dispiriting to see him wounding himself (and on such an important issue, bringing a reaction from one of the great lions of the civil rights movement and one of my greatest heroes).

[Cerin]

Why do you say Sanders is wounding himself? Are you concluding that because Lewis doesn't remember him, that Sanders has lied about his involvement? Or has it been definitively established that he has lied? What were his claims? Does Lewis remember every person who was involved during his tenure?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I don't think he lied, but he might have exaggerated his involvement. Perhaps Lewis would not have remembered everyone who was involved, but he probably would remember anyone of much significance. However, I think this indicative of the fact that Sanders has never bothered to make much of an effort to connect with leaders in the African-American community, until he started running for president, whereas the Clintons have long-standing connections. Whether that proves to make a difference going forward is likely to be a significant factor in determining the nomination.

[Cerin]

Do you know what his exact claims of involvement were? I think if you're going to suggest those claims were exaggerated, you would do well to present that information at the same time. You know how rumors can take on a life of their own as they start being repeated.

The Clintons had political ambitions from an early age, and I imagine they made sure they were noticed and remembered wherever they involved themselves politically. I'm not familiar with Sanders' history, but perhaps at that point in time he was not as concerned with establishing a high profile.

In any case, I strongly object to comments like 'Sanders is wounding himself' absent any actual facts being presented.

As far as Sanders 'never bothering to make much of an effort to connect with leaders in the African-American community, until he started running for president', that makes perfect sense, imo, for someone whose entire political life has been on the Vermont stage, where African Americans make up 4% of the population. Sanders hasn't been running for President until now, so why should he have acted like he was running for President before now?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Is running for president the only reason to reach out to people? And he comes from Brooklyn, which has a bit more than a 4% African-American population, and while he represented Vermont, Senators are supposed to have the interests of the entire country in mind, not just their direct constituents.

In any event, it was not I who said that Sanders is wounding himself, so I will leave it to Prim to explain that comment. I do, however, think that he is "wounding himself" (from the point of view of politics) in forcefully attacking President Obama, who remains very popular among many segments of the Democratic Party (though not the far left). To be clear, I admire Sanders stating what he believes, even if it is not good politics. But it certainly is not good politics (or at least I don't think it is, but what do I know?).

[Primula Baggins]

I think by reaching out in a somewhat clumsy way and making claims that can be disputed by respected figures in the civil rights movement, Sanders is wounding himself among African Americans, one of the constituencies that made up Obama's coalition and at present are largely with Clinton. Conventional wisdom is that Sanders cannot win with strong majority support just among young white people (which is how he was polling in the early going; and conventional wisdom also says that young people don't turn out).

He may well set the conventional wisdom on its ear, but he can't afford to give any demographic of Democratic voters a reason to hesitate to support him. That's what I meant by "wounding himself."

I'm exceptionally nervous about this because, as a Democrat, I want to see the strongest possible candidate up against Trump. So I notice the mistakes both candidates are making.

[Cerin]

Is running for president the only reason to reach out to people? <snip>and while he represented Vermont, Senators are supposed to have the interests of the entire country in mind, not just their direct constituents.

You suggested that the fact that Lewis didn’t remember Sanders was ‘indicative of the fact that Sanders never bothered to make much of an effort to connect with leaders in the African-American community, until he started running for president . . .’

I think this is a rather questionable insinuation – trying to make the fact that Lewis doesn’t remember Sanders say something about Sanders’ attitude and/or history subsequent to those years. You contend that Sanders, as a representative from Vermont should have ‘bothered’ to make an effort to connect with leaders in the African-American community, because Senators are supposed to have the interests of the entire country in mind. Well, I think you are really reaching there (in the same way you reached to hold only Sanders accountable for not supporting reparations). Can you give an example of a state office-holder with a 96% non-black constituency, not running for national office, who has ‘bothered to make an effort to connect with leaders in the African-American community?’

Yes, the Clintons -- having been in national life in positions of power for decades -- have a huge advantage in their connections with the African American community (though I’d be hard-pressed to say how any of the policies enacted during Clinton’s terms have actually helped the African-American community), but this is not something to be turned around as a criticism of Sanders, imo.

I think by reaching out in a somewhat clumsy way and making claims that can be disputed by respected figures in the civil rights movement, Sanders is wounding himself among African Americans <snip>.

Can they be disputed? Or is it simply a case of a Clinton ally who doesn't remember Sanders insinuating that his claims are false or exaggerated? If the latter, then it's Lewis who is wounding Sanders, not Sanders who is wounding himself.

[yovargas]

General thought: It is a terrible thing for a democracy when its media spends far, far, far more time dissecting every tiny little aspect of the "horse race" aspect of campaigning than they do dissecting the people (and ideas) in that race.

Sports channels spend more time doing in-depth analysis of its competitors than the general media does of politicians.

[Inanna]

I agree Yov.


---------------
Please bear with my typos & grammar mistakes. Sent from my iPhone - Palantirs make mistakes too.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

You suggested that the fact that Lewis didn’t remember Sanders was ‘indicative of the fact that Sanders never bothered to make much of an effort to connect with leaders in the African-American community, until he started running for president . . .’

That's not what I meant to suggest, though I can see why you thought that. What I meant was that the whole situation, and particularly the fact that a civil rights icon like Lewis (who now is getting fairly viciously attacked by some supporters of Sanders, which I find disturbing, though I certainly do not blame Sanders for that any more than I blame him for some of the grossly sexist comments made by the "Bernie Bros"), would make a point of speaking out against Sanders, was indicative of the fact that Sanders never bothered to make much of an effort to connect with leaders in the African-American community.

[Frelga]

I suppose it could simply mean that Lewis is closer with the Clintons and wishes to make clear whom he supports?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

That's part of it, but in my opinion not all of it. Not with someone as iconic as John Lewis.

On a different note, I thought this column by Dana Milbank of the Washington Post was very interesting:

The sexist double standards hurting Hillary Clinton

[Cerin]

Thanks for clarifying, Voronwë.

I don't remember people making an issue of Clinton's voice (yelling, screaming) in the 2008 campaign. Or am I just forgetting? The article says it was an issue then, too. Unfortunately, women's voices are pitched higher, and the pitch tends to rise when we shout. Maybe Clinton should hire a vocal coach, preferably someone from RADA. Those British actors have such wonderful declamatory skills.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

But no one suggests that Sanders, with his harsh and obnoxious-sounding Brooklyn accent, hire a voice coach from RADA. Or stop yelling. On the contrary, his loud angry diatribes are part of his appeal.

ETA: or Trump, about whom the exact same thing could be said, except that it is Queens instead of Brooklyn.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

[Cerin]

Not having heard either candidate speak this year, I think the general point is that a bellow is easier on the ears than a screech. It's a question of pitch, and men have the natural advantage there. I do believe many female actors work hard at lowering the natural pitch of their voices at the outset of their careers.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Sanders doesn't so much bellow as grate. I think the general point is that sexism is alive and well in America.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

[Cerin]

To clarify, I meant that the general point -- in response to your remark that no one suggests a vocal coach for the male candidates -- was that, accents and other vocal idiosyncrasies aside, a higher pitched voice can sound unpleasantly shrill when shouting, whereas a lower pitched voice does not. Certainly the general point of the article was that sexism is alive and well in America, and I do not disagree with that.

Btw, I love accents of all kinds, and am especially fond of the harsh and obnoxious Brooklyn accent, having grown up there myself.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

And also to clarify, I don't think that Sanders accent should be held against him (although I personally worked hard to largely get rid of my own NY accent and am glad that people tend to be surprised that I come from there). I just think the same standard should be applied regardless of gender (not that I think that you disagree with that).

[Griffon64]

I don't think we ever did make a separate thread about the Orgeon standoff in the wildlife refuge, so I'd like to drop this video off here:

https://www.facebook.com/KGWTV8/videos/ ... 6/?fref=nf

I'm doing it because this shows a white dude in law enforcement ( and protest as you may, white dudes in law enforcement have been in the target zone for some generally liberal-leaning parts of the political landscape, as well as the far right fringes, of late ) speaking from the heart on the importance of connecting to each other as human beings - and I would stand up any day for the simple imperative that we should treat each other as human first, and as "other" later, if at all. If we can do the first part, the latter part would cause much less harm.

[Primula Baggins]

Thank you for posting that, Griffy. I completely agree with you. And with Sheriff Ward, who was impressive throughout the whole awful ordeal and rose even higher with those remarks.

I wish he could say what he said to the entire country, because we all need to hear it.