Continuity issues/unexplained inconsistencies in TH

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Elentári
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Continuity issues/unexplained inconsistencies in TH

Post by Elentári »

There's an interesting thread over on another Tolkien board, where the discussion is evolving around whether PJ's not settling with a script is working against the team this time because there is so much backtracking and many inconsistencies between the TE and EE versions.

Obviously this happened with LotR to some extent - things were set up in the EEs for the next film - but with all the rewriting it does seems that the new material trumps continuity with TH...

Captain Salt has put together a list of the most notable discrepancies/confusing plot points...
1. The backstory is a bit of mess; we're two movies in and we don't know how Gandalf got the map and key from Thrain. The first film made it seem like the dwarves had assembled due to "signs" such as birds flying around, then sought out Gandalf's aide ("you asked me to find the 14th member of this company", Saruman's remark "if they had come to me",) while this film, while truer to the source material, shows otherwise. Also, as hutch pointed out, the Thorin-hunting story lacks consistency...were Azog/the Necromancer hunting Thorin so prevent him from "usurping" the dragon, and if so, why were one or the other doing so when Thorin was an aimless vagabond? If the Necromancer wants Thorin dead (it is he, not Azog who has plans to Erebor), why does he give up on the dwarves only to have Azog assign Bolg to to continue the hunt of his own accord? For that matter, how do Azog and his orcs transport to Dol Guldur seemingly instantaneously, while Bolg's company manages to make their way to the Woodland Realm by the following night? Also, there's no hint that Azog serves the Necromancer in Film 1 (save for the Nazgûl theme at AUJ's ending), yet here it's revealed in the least dramatic, matter-of-fact manner possible with no build-up or preamble, (say, such as Gandalf putting the clues together himself, speaking of which):

2. The Dol Guldur story is also a mess; how does one bury wraiths when by definition they have no bodies to bury? How does Gandalf leap to conclusion that Azog serves the Necromancer (because Beorn mentions an alliance between the Moria Orcs and the Necromancer? There are a lot of Moria orcs, and Azog is a "Gundabad Orc" anyway). If Sauron has not yet reached his full strength and is trying to remain concealed, why would he seemingly lure Gandalf/the Wise to Dol Guldur (I believe that was the implication of the "it's most certainly a trap" exchange); and why would Gandalf enter Dol Guldur alone if he even suspected that ME's darkest remaining power had returned (remember this is the same character who would not enter Moria unless he "had no other choice")? What happened to the Nazgûl after they were set up by the Morgul blade subplot? And would orcs really advertise the use of the fan-ficy "morgul arrows" and tag elf territory with Sauron grafiti if the Necromancer was trying to remain incognito? Also, why do the Orcs (other than Narzug), and Sauron only speak the Black Speech when they spoke largely Westron in LotR, and how does Thorin understand this language when Azog addresses him in AUJ (yet he has to be told by Gandy that the lettering in the prologue is Black Speech)?

3. How did the orcs wipe out a race of people who could transform into giant bears, as Beorn seems like he could fit Azog's entire head in his mouth? For that matter, why is Azog afraid of the last skin-changer when he's killed the rest, and why doesn't Beorn just slay Azog when he's right outside his house? BTW, how does Beorn still have a manacle on his arm when it would come off as soon as he turned into a bear?

4. Thorin and the other dwarves don't react when Kili is injured, yet totally overact most out of character when they fail to find the hidden door (no one mentions that they simply have to go back to Lake-town, and have the people dote on them until next year)? If Thorin and the others thought that map was false (as mentioned in Thorin's audition dialogue), this needed to be explained in the film:

"We were here...we were here when the last light of Durin's day fell, and there was no keyhole, no door...no way into the mountain. The map is a fake, a forgery, it must be...or else the hidden entrance was never built. But whatever the cause...the legacy of my people has lead to nothing". (Thorin throws away key).

5. Lake-town is a heavily populated/guarded police state, yet there's nobody around to notice a major brawl between orcs and elves in the middle of the night (after a thump in the armory brought a dozen armed guards to the scene at once)? It's also very convenient that the Master/Braga allow Bard to speak his piece before a large assembly, then decide to arrest him for no apparent reason (or none that they bother to give), at JUST the right moment for a climactic chase and to get Bard out of the way so the elves can handle the orcs themselves...and this is after they set up the same outcome with Bard being arrested for illegally trying to use the windlance, which IMO seems like the result of some sloppy last-minute re-shoots.

6. What is going on the the Arkenstone anyway? Smaug claims that this is what corrupted Thror's mind... yet Thorin begins to change before he reaches Erebor/the Arkenstone, and we're told by Old Bilbo and others that Thror's madness was brought on simply due to his lust for wealth...notice Thrain also went mad after exile from Erebor, after the Arkenstone had been left in Smaug's hoard. For that matter, why is the Ring already corrupting Bilbo when Hobbits are known to be resilient to its power, and Bilbo will hold the Ring with no obvious psychological effect for 60 years after?

7. No consistency with Film 1's ending - IE Thorin's magically healing face, and the orcs already being on the company's trail despite the eagles seemingly having flown them hundreds of miles thought the night and into the day. Notice everyone now calls Thorin "Oakenshield", which reminds me of a cheesy 80's action movie where our hero is always referred to by his last name. Tongue This also includes Smaug, who is exceptionally well-informed for someone who's been snoozing in Erebor for 60 years, but let's just chalk it up by his being telepathic to a degree as seems to be the case when he senses the Ring.

8. Two films in and aside from Thorin, Balin, and now Kili, none of the dwarves have emerged as distinct individuals with unique backstories or functions within the company. Yes, Oin's being the apothecary leads to his staying with Kili, and Nori a thief to his tapping for the hidden door...but these facts are not really established (aside from the supplementary materials) and also don't really add a whole lot more to the characters/movies; Dori and Ori, in whom we were supposed to be invested in the last movie, have pretty much ended up as extras. This isn't an "inconsistency", per say as a missed opportunity, IMO.

Those are just some of the issues I have with the films...I'm sure that they can all be explained away through various explanations of varying degrees of believability, except a good movie(s) shouldn't need to rely on the defenses of fans to make sense (such as LotR, which didn't seem to have nearly as many gaffs in its narrative construction).
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Post by axordil »

I noticed some of those and cared about none. 8)
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Post by Passdagas the Brown »

I'm sorry, but I really have difficulty with conversations about continuity. Some of these things are problematic, but in all, these seeming inconsistencies actually improve the depth of Middle Earth, IMO.

For example, this individual complains about inconsistencies in motivations for the quest. I don't see it that way. In AUJ, Oin talks about birds returning, and other omens, and Thorin seizes on this in Bag End as a way of persuading the dwarves to agree to the quest, adding that "others may have seen the signs too." This is Thorin, as political leader, seizing on a new argument. The fact that the DOS prologue shows a different motivation for Thorin, and a clearer role for Gandalf in encouraging him, does not "contradict" AUJ. It simply shows that there is complexity in the world. There are actual motivations, and there are expedient arguments used (or seized) by Thorin, as a means of persuasion!

I feel compelled to quote Emerson: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds." It is such uni-dimensional thinking about continuity and consistency, IMO, that leads to most stories and films being far too unrealistically neat and plotted out.

I prefer Tolkien's method. Start writing without a clear destination, and walk down numerous paths along the way. Things are far more interesting and true to life that way, which is why his stories feel like history while most fantasy feels like a tidy board game.

If PJ's process mirrors Tolkien's in some way, I think that is a good thing.

ETA: Elen, if you wouldn't mind posting this response anonymously on that board, I would appreciate it!
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Post by kzer_za »

I agree with him on the Laketown orc attack, though it is nice to see orcs exercise a little stealth for a change. That scene is the worst part of the movie. It's unnecessary, accomplishes nothing besides Kili's healing from a narrative standpoint, doesn't intercut well with Erebor and Dol Guldur, and taints the climax somewhat. With that said, the fact that Laketown doesn't notice is just icing on the cake and not the real problem with the scene - if it worked cinematically, I wouldn't mind very much.

The rest seems like nitpicking to me. Just because something is not fully explained or spelled out doesn't mean it's a plothole. Tolkien doesn't fully explain why the elves are leaving in LotR, or what happened to Númenor! And some of them are the sort of things that are either cinematically effective or just movie convention, even in all-time classics.

Just a few notes (I don't care to go through all of them):
- While the opening may change with the EE (I'm not sure if I want it to though), we start straight out with Azog on the trail because it's good filimmaking for establishing urgency and danger right from the start. It basically matches the book with some compression anyway.
- It's obvious why the Master wants to arrest Bard right now - he fears him as a political enemy and the town won't support him too strongly right now with his public opposition to the dwarves, so it's an expedient time to do it. I thought this was very obvious. The timing is coincidental, but it's a movie and isn't anything implausible.
- Tolkien retconned Bilbo to lie about the Ring, so it was affecting him somewhat back then in the books too. While he has resisted its effects well at the beginning of LotR, it's not true that he is totally normal either. There is no problem with this.
Those are just some of the issues I have with the films...I'm sure that they can all be explained away through various explanations of varying degrees of believability, except a good movie(s) shouldn't need to rely on the defenses of fans to make sense (such as LotR, which didn't seem to have nearly as many gaffs in its narrative construction).
The thing is, most of these are only things that hardcore fans notice to begin with. The same applies with some things in LotR movies, like the highly flexible geographical distances and fast elf travel.
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Post by Dave_LF »

Empty Laketown didn't have to be a problem. It would be unremarkable for a pre-industrial city to substantially shut down with the sun, and Laketown seems like the sort of place that would have a curfew on top of that. Plus, it seems likely anyone nearby would have hidden once they noticed there were monsters in the street, and any underpaid guards who happened to be in the area would have had little motivation to interfere since the orcs were leaving of their own accord. A problem only arises because there are people in the streets again just a little while later when Smaug leaves the mountain, which pretty much blows that entire defense (unless it was morning by then?).

And I'm still really bothered by Legolas' horse-summoning abilities. I hope some restored EE scene explains that.
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Post by Pearly Di »

There are inconsistencies and breaks with continuity in the LotR films too ... both in terms of storytelling and cinematic continuity. E.g. Arwen's life being tied to the fate of the Ring came completely out of left field!

Has anyone seen the 'Everything Wrong With [LotR/Harry Potter/Hunger Games/Inception etc. films]' on YouTube? Entertainingly non-reverential. :D. No doubt they'll do one for the Hobbit films. ;)
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Dave_LF wrote:And I'm still really bothered by Legolas' horse-summoning abilities. I hope some restored EE scene explains that.
I just assumed that that was how he was able to catch up to Tauriel.
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Post by Passdagas the Brown »

Yeah...I also just assumed that he rode that horse to Laketown. But it is a bit reminiscent of your standard fantasy MMORPG, where you can very quickly and conveniently summon a mount.
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Post by Dave_LF »

That's the only explanation that makes sense, but it's awkward that we never saw it until it became necessary to the plot. Especially since the film actually did show Legolas leaving home on foot (yes, there could have been and probably were stables out in the forest somewhere), and since there was no sign of a horse in the scene where he caught up with Tauriel.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Honestly, those kind of things only bother me if they are impossible to reconcile (and even sometimes when they are). I am happy to fill in more or less irrelevant missing pieces.
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Post by narya »

Pearly Di wrote:
Has anyone seen the 'Everything Wrong With [LotR/Harry Potter/Hunger Games/Inception etc. films]' on YouTube? Entertainingly non-reverential. :D. No doubt they'll do one for the Hobbit films. ;)
Yup. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LDhsH79jAY

Good place to waste an evening. :D

And while we're at it, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/TheHobbit
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Post by Passdagas the Brown »

I do understand where Dave is coming from, though. Even Gandalf's easily explained arrival at Helm's Deep with an army is something I wish had received some screen time. Just a brief scene of Gandalf hurrying across the Westfold, and speaking with a few anonymous captains of the Rohirrim, would have been nice.

Due to the nature of his stories, deus ex machina's often work incredibly well in Tolkien's text. But they are very hard to pull of convincingly in film.
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Post by Dave_LF »

Voronwë the Faithful wrote:Honestly, those kind of things only bother me if they are impossible to reconcile (and even sometimes when they are). I am happy to fill in more or less irrelevant missing pieces.
I generally feel the same way about nit-picky logistical stuff, but something about the conceptualization of a horse as simply a vehicle whose presence in a two-elf party doesn't even bear mentioning until events demand it seems a bit off to me somehow. It's the way a modern person with no experience of horses would think about a horse, if you will.
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Post by Passdagas the Brown »

Right. A modern layman with no experience with horses might not even wonder about where the horse was tethered or stabled (either by the Running River or in Laketown), whether or not it had food and water, and how long it might take to untether the horse, get on it, and then lead it across a narrow bridge at full speed.

It's just conveniently available, like a personal car in the driveway.

That said, in the context of Legolas' hilarious anger over his bloody nose, there was something almost comical about it that I enjoyed.
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Post by Elentári »

Passdagas the Brown wrote:I'm sorry, but I really have difficulty with conversations about continuity. Some of these things are problematic, but in all, these seeming inconsistencies actually improve the depth of Middle Earth, IMO.

For example, this individual complains about inconsistencies in motivations for the quest. I don't see it that way. In AUJ, Oin talks about birds returning, and other omens, and Thorin seizes on this in Bag End as a way of persuading the dwarves to agree to the quest, adding that "others may have seen the signs too." This is Thorin, as political leader, seizing on a new argument. The fact that the DOS prologue shows a different motivation for Thorin, and a clearer role for Gandalf in encouraging him, does not "contradict" AUJ. It simply shows that there is complexity in the world. There are actual motivations, and there are expedient arguments used (or seized) by Thorin, as a means of persuasion!

The backstory is such a mess, partly because PJ has still to show the audience just how Gandalf obtained the map and key from Thrain...this is a major plot point (in fact the inciting incident behind the quest for Erebor), and we've only been given vague mentions of how/when it happened in the DoS Bree prologue, rather than having it occur as part of the story. It also raises another point: Thrain went missing at Azanulbizar: if he met with Gandalf before the battle, Thror would still have been alive, so why wasn't he the one meeting with Gandalf instead? Yes, Thrain may be reinstated in the EE, but it is also likely we won't get the answer until TaBA - or never!!
PtB wrote:I feel compelled to quote Emerson: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds." It is such uni-dimensional thinking about continuity and consistency, IMO, that leads to most stories and films being far too unrealistically neat and plotted out.

I prefer Tolkien's method. Start writing without a clear destination, and walk down numerous paths along the way. Things are far more interesting and true to life that way, which is why his stories feel like history while most fantasy feels like a tidy board game.

If PJ's process mirrors Tolkien's in some way, I think that is a good thing.
Image Isn't one of the most remarkable things about Tokien's work that he spent a lifetime trying to iron out and remove any inconsistencies - yes, I know he didn't manage it completely - but one of the joys of his work is that and that for every action there is a reason and a consequence.

Time and again PJ and his scriptwriters seem to fall foul of picking out threads from JRRT's tightly woven tapestry, not realizing that the whole seam will unravel...
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Post by Smaug's voice »

Elentári wrote:
Passdagas the Brown wrote:I'm sorry, but I really have difficulty with conversations
about continuity. Some of these things are problematic, but in all,
these seeming inconsistencies actually improve the depth of Middle
Earth, IMO.

For example, this individual complains about inconsistencies in
motivations for the quest. I don't see it that way. In AUJ, Oin talks
about birds returning, and other omens, and Thorin seizes on this in Bag
End as a way of persuading the dwarves to agree to the quest, adding
that "others may have seen the signs too." This is Thorin, as political
leader, seizing on a new argument. The fact that the DOS prologue shows a
different motivation for Thorin, and a clearer role for Gandalf in
encouraging him, does not "contradict" AUJ. It simply shows that there
is complexity in the world. There are actual motivations, and there are
expedient arguments used (or seized) by Thorin, as a means of
persuasion!

The backstory is such a mess, partly because PJ has still to show the
audience just how Gandalf obtained the map and key from Thrain...this is
a major plot point (in fact the inciting incident behind the quest for
Erebor), and we've only been given vague mentions of how/when it
happened in the DoS Bree prologue, rather than having it occur as part
of the story. It also raises another point: Thrain went missing at
Azanulbizar: if he met with Gandalf before the battle, Thror would
still have been alive, so why wasn't he the one meeting with Gandalf
instead? Yes, Thrain may be reinstated in the EE, but it is also likely
we won't get the answer until TaBA - or never!!
PtB wrote:I feel compelled to quote Emerson: "A foolish consistency
is the hobgoblin of small minds." It is such uni-dimensional thinking
about continuity and consistency, IMO, that leads to most stories and
films being far too unrealistically neat and plotted out.

I prefer Tolkien's method. Start writing without a clear destination,
and walk down numerous paths along the way. Things are far more
interesting and true to life that way, which is why his stories feel
like history while most fantasy feels like a tidy board game.

If PJ's process mirrors Tolkien's in some way, I think that is a good
thing.
Image
Isn't one of the most remarkable things about Tokien's work that he
spent a lifetime trying to iron out and remove any inconsistencies -
yes, I know he didn't manage it completely - but one of the joys of his
work is that and that for every action there is a reason and a
consequence.

Time and again PJ and his scriptwriters seem to fall foul of picking out
threads from JRRT's tightly woven tapestry, not realizing that the
whole seam will unravel...
Exactly.
PtB, I think you are mixing inconsistencies with unexplained events.
As far as I can recall (from my very limited knowledge of Tolkien) there are no inconsistencies within the story. Certain events and facts were left unexplained but they were not contradictory to any of the known events.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Tolkien had more inconsistencies in his writing than any author I know of, because his writing was so vast. Was it Morgoth, or Ungoliant, that struck down the Trees? Was it Maedhros and the other sons of Fëanor that brought the news of their grandfather's death, or some unnamed anonymous messenger? Did Maedhros and his army fall upon the rear of the enemy assailing Fingon and his forces at the Fifth Battle (as it states in the Silmarillion) or were they intercepted by another force and the eastern and western conflicts completely separate (as it states in The Children of Húrin). Was it Húrin, or Fingon, who spoke against attacking the enemy in the plains to soon? Did the Easterlings led by Uldor the Accursed betray Maedhros, or not? Did the Dwarves play a heroic role, or a craven one? And on and on.
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Post by yovargas »

I note that none of those examples are in LOTR. I don't think stuff that he didn't actually release to be published really counts.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Why?
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Post by Frelga »

V, I think we can excuse unfinished and unpublished writings. And some of the things you mentioned aren't inconsistencies so much as multiple versions in different drafts.

ETA: x-posted with you and yov. Because Tolkien has not come up with a single, satisfying (to him) version, which presumably is a major reason why they remained unpublished.
Isn't one of the most remarkable things about Tokien's work that he
spent a lifetime trying to iron out and remove any inconsistencies -
yes, I know he didn't manage it completely - but one of the joys of his
work is that and that for every action there is a reason and a
consequence.

Time and again PJ and his scriptwriters seem to fall foul of picking out
threads from JRRT's tightly woven tapestry, not realizing that the
whole seam will unravel...
:agree:
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