A Change of Protocols for the Tol Eressëa Forum

For discussion of philosophy, religion, spirituality, or any topic that posters wish to approach from a spiritual or religious perspective.
Jnyusa
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A Change of Protocols for the Tol Eressëa Forum

Post by Jnyusa »

Dear Friends,

You may or may not be aware that the Founders of HoF have been in constant discussion about the protocols for the Tol Eressëa forum. This discussion began even before we opened HoF to the public.

Our original intent was to provide a forum where expressions of personal spirituality would be given special consideration - protection from ridicule and fly-by criticism and so forth. After five months of this experiment, and several changes of protocol among the Shirriffs themselves for modding the forum, we have realized that we are unable to reach clear agreement among ourselves as to how our original concept should be interpreted on a day-to-day basis.

We can't expect our members to abide by guidelines which we ourselves are unable to interpret with a single voice. And we would like to discontinue these constant discussions among ourselves regarding what is or is not appropriate in the forum.

Effective immediately, we are removing the special guidelines that apply to this forum.

Courtesy toward individual members is still required all the time, in all cases, everywhere on the board. But we will no longer review posts for adherence to some standard that does not apply anywhere else. We just could not reach agreement among ourselves as to what the standard should be.

We are unanimous, however, in believing that the integrity of the fellowship among members and the integrity of the fellowship among the founders is more important than anything else, and the best way to preserve that is to have the same rules for every forum on the board.

Both forums - Tol Eressëa and Lasto Beth Lammen - will remain in existence. Tol Eressëa will still be devoted to topics concerning religion, philosophy, and spirituality, etc. Lasto Beth Lammen will be devoted to topics concerning politics, history, and current events, etc. The forum stickies will be updated accordingly. Thread starters should put their threads in the forum they deem appropriate for the topic. Courteous debate, humor, etc. will be allowed in both forums.

The slight shift in forum criteria means that some threads which are currently in Lasto can be moved back to Tol Eressëa. There may be temporary inconvenience associated with this and I thank you all in advance for your flexibility.

Finally, I want to thank all our members for bearing the Tol Eressëa experiment with such good grace and forgiving us when we blundered. You are all such great people, and I'm really grateful that you stuck with us through this trial period.
:love:

Jn
A fool's paradise is a wise man's hell.
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vison
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Post by vison »

There are few things as admirable as persons who can learn, and act upon what they have learned. On a lesser message board, things would have been very different.

Well done. :bow:
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nerdanel
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Post by nerdanel »

Good call. I applaud the effort and understand the reasons why it's too tricky to maintain in practice. In the past few months, I've been privy to an interesting debacle elsewhere, in another "forum with special rules" attempt, and there, too, it has caused far more grief than its protections are worth.
We are unanimous, however, in believing that the integrity of the fellowship among members and the integrity of the fellowship among the founders is more important than anything else
Absolutely. I want very much for this "shot" at creating community to be the final, successful one for this group of posters. Anything that threatens to interfere with that should go.
I won't just survive
Oh, you will see me thrive
Can't write my story
I'm beyond the archetype
I won't just conform
No matter how you shake my core
'Cause my roots, they run deep, oh

When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
This is no mistake, no accident
When you think the final nail is in, think again
Don't be surprised, I will still rise
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Teremia
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Post by Teremia »

Good work, fearless leaders! I think you're doing the right thing here. :bow:
Holbytla
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Post by Holbytla »

Praise the Lord and pass the meat. :)
Any other words uttered by me are pointless.
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Whistler
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Post by Whistler »

And I didn't care much for those, even.
Holbytla
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Post by Holbytla »

Whistler wrote:And I didn't care much for those, even.
As you have often said, "There is no accounting for taste".
:P
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vison
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Post by vison »

The Selkirk Grace:

Some hae meat an' cannae eat;
An' some can eat, but want it.
But we hae meat, an' we can eat,
So let the Lord be thankit.
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halplm
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Post by halplm »

can I just say this saddens me a bit, as those special rules kept me coming back.
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Post by Ethel »

halplm wrote:can I just say this saddens me a bit, as those special rules kept me coming back.
I so understand where you are coming from, hal. But those special rules made me think I needed to stay away. So I understand this change. The founders simply did not know how to enforce 'respect' - because it is always and absolutely in the eye of the beholder.

I have been an offender here, but not because I enjoy offending people. I have resolved to stay away because I don't know how to be honest here without also being offensive. I for one am glad for this rule change, for it means that I might still have a chance to communicate honestly and respectfully with people who believe differently than I do.

I honor and respect you all, but I cannot feel that your beliefs are inherently more worthy than my own. And I know you all feel the same: that is, that your own beliefs need to be respected. And so they do. The problematic thing with religious beliefs is that we all feel we are right. This forum, I think, was meant to be a place where it was okay to express that sort of belief. But if one person is right, everyone else is wrong. That's why it doesn't work.

Hal, my understanding of you is that you believe, absolutely, that you have entirely correct beliefs with respect to God and Jesus and the church. I think Cerin believes something similar. Do you two believe exactly the same things, or is one of you mistaken in some small particular? Does everyone who believes they have the right of it with respect to God and church believe the same? Not in my experience. So some of them must be wrong, no? But not you?
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Post by halplm »

I don't believe I'm all right about everything, Ethel. In fact, I know for a fact I'm quite wrong on many things, especially with religion, because I barely understand what I do believe is right.

I feel sad for how you view Christianity, and I understand why you do (I read your post about it). I just hope you know that for many Christians, religion is about love and acceptance, not about judgement and condemnation.

the "special case" of this forum made me feel I could express what I believed without people automatically saying "your wrong" simply becuase it was a religious belief. Would people always agree? no, but I thought there could be discussion with people discussing beliefs, rather than arguing about their validity.

I have struggled with my faith many times, but I prefer that struggle to be internal. I have no need for other people telling me I'm wrong, and I have very little desire to defend my faith with people who project bad feelings about religion on me (as much as it sounds like, I'm REALLY not directing that at you personally, ethel :hug: ).

It's why I never liked discussing religion in Manwë, it's why I never liked discussing religion in the Symp, and it's why I thought this was a good idea. I don't have a church near me I'm comfortable with, so there are very few I have found I can discuss religion with without always being "ready to defend." It's something I've missed.

If anyone feels like talking about Christianity but not arguing about it, I'm sure you can find a way to get in touch with me...
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

halplm wrote:the "special case" of this forum made me feel I could express what I believed without people automatically saying "your wrong" simply becuase it was a religious belief.
hal, I am hopeful that you will continue to be able to express what you believe without people automatically saying (or implying, which is just as bad) "you're wrong" simply because it was a religious belief. Even without any special rules for the TE forum, I think that our overall focus on mutual courtesy and respect should allow that.

Conversely, I hope that people who don't believe in religion will also be able to express their thoughts and feelings without people saying (or implying) that they are wrong because it is not a religious belief (or not a particular religious belief).

Even with this change, I will continue to try to promote tolerence and understanding in every way that I can think of.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Post by Holbytla »

Anyone that states someone is wrong about any aspect of religion is in themselves wrong.
There are no proofs, only faith. How can what anyone believes be wrong.
It may be different from what others believe, but it cannot be wrong.
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Ethel
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Post by Ethel »

halplm wrote:I feel sad for how you view Christianity, and I understand why you do (I read your post about it). I just hope you know that for many Christians, religion is about love and acceptance, not about judgement and condemnation.
I know, dear. My experience was pretty horrible, but I understand that it's not the usual one. But even so I found a lot that I valued about the religious experience, and still do. I love churches. When I was in Edinburgh, I went to St Giles. It's not a particularly beautiful church - not compared to Chartres or Salisbury - but it's still beautiful. There are the soaring stone arches and the stained glass. The reaching for beauty and trancendence is palpable in every church I've ever been in. I found myself staring at a wall where the names of young men killed in WW1 were inscribed, and my eyes filled with tears. Even for heathens, sacred spaces can be incredibly moving.
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Post by narya »

Ethel wrote:I have resolved to stay away because I don't know how to be honest here without also being offensive.
That never stopped me. :P

Good to see you Ethel. :hug:

Jn, thank you for "evolving" the rules.

Hal, I see your point of not wanting to have to be defensive, but sitting aroud with a group of "yes men" will not help you in your faith journey. Unless you have a perfect understanding of your religion and have all of your questions answered, the process of getting a deeper foundation to your religion is the process of examining it and asking questions and discussing and even debating. The good outcome is having a stronger faith. The bad outcome (unfortunately the path I took) is to pick the clock apart until it doesn't work anymore. :( I guess the wisdom is in knowing the difference.
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Post by JewelSong »

I have always enjoyed religious debate. I do not find someone else's beliefs (or non-beliefs!) threatening to mine in any way. I believe that respectful dialogue is the key. I feel that I need to go on the defensive if someone challenges something I hold to be true. (I do not always feel the need to explain it, either! ;) )

I also believe that God is Very Big. So I enjoy hearing about other people's spiritual journeys and the many different paths people take in their quest to encounter the Divine. Because, in the end, I am just one small, inconsequential human being and I sure don't know anything about how the Divine works. At the end of the day, all I can do is the best I can do in the best way I can do it. And I have faith that Jesus is cool with that. :D
"Live! Live! Live! Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death!" - Auntie Mame

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Post by Faramond »

I think potentially offensive statements are okay, while hostile statements are not. I think that this should have been the standard of Tol Eressëa. But shouldn't this be the standard for the entire board?
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Post by Whistler »

It is.
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yovargas
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Post by yovargas »

I believe that my Hell thread was part of what made people start thinking about wheter Tol was a working well. When I started that thread, I don't think I knew that Tol had "special" rules. Therefore, at the beginning of that thread I said:

"...I'd really like this to not be about criticisms of the belief (as I used to do once upon a time in Manwë) but more about exploring other's perspectives of God and seeking a greater, mutual understanding."

I'm not sure that worked (I stopped following that thread pretty quickly as it was moving too fast) but it should have. The kind of discussion hal wants to have should still be possible as long as the thread starter explicitly states that that is what they are looking for.

IMO. (Duh.)
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
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Pearly Di
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Post by Pearly Di »

Whistler, :hug:

(Look! I just hugged Whistler!)
vison wrote:The Selkirk Grace:

Some hae meat an' cannae eat;
An' some can eat, but want it.
But we hae meat, an' we can eat,
So let the Lord be thankit.
Hey, Vison love, I thought you were supposed to be a heathen. :P

*runs far far away* :D:D:D:D

Thanks, Jn. :)

I was wondering how this thing would play out eventually ... I really haven't felt comfortable posting in Tol Eressëa since ... since ... well, since I felt like I was some sort of enemy to be avoided. :(

I am relieved about this decision. :) I was beginning to feel that the Christians were indeed being given special treatment, which in turn only made me feel that our Bad Guy status was increasing by the hour. :suspicious:

Anyway ... onwards and upwards. 8)

-edit-

PS. Yov ... that sounds pretty reasonable to me.
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