The AUJ Extended Edition Anticipation Thread (SPOILERS)

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Nope, not the only one.

And I completely disagree with the criticism of Radagast leading the wargs and orcs back to the dwarves. I thought the chaotic way that that played out was much more realistic than just having him leading them off and the dwarves escaping, particularly when more wargs and orcs showed up from a different direction.

[Dave_LF]

On the other hand, I thought the point about Gandalf not being able to come to Thorin's aid because he was supporting Dori and Ori was fairly clever.

Was it? The rational thing for Gandalf to do in that situation would have been to let them fall. Thorin was at the heart of his whole plan, and the entire thing falls apart without him. Maybe Gandalf is too lawful good to do something like that, but it always bugged me that they didn't even address this.

It also seemed at least a bit inconsistent with his previous displays of power and athleticism under pressure. He can knock down a roomful of goblins, split rocks, and wield a sword with the best of them, but not lift two dwarves? Even with a loooooong time to do it ?

[Smaug's voice]

On the other hand, I thought the point about Gandalf not
being able to come to Thorin's aid because he was supporting Dori and
Ori was fairly clever.

Was it? The rational thing for Gandalf to do in that situation would
have been to let them fall. Thorin was at the heart of his whole plan,
and the entire thing falls apart without him. Maybe Gandalf is too
lawful good to do something like that, but it always bugged me that they
didn't even address this.

Seeing that this is a film to cater for all kind of audiences, what you suggest will make Gandalf appear like a killer!
And that was before Thorin fell. So why would he let go of them?
And when Thorin did flop, I think Gandalf like everyone else was too stunned. And he was waiting for the eagles anyway!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

On the other hand, I thought the point about Gandalf not being able to come to Thorin's aid because he was supporting Dori and Ori was fairly clever.

Was it? The rational thing for Gandalf to do in that situation would have been to let them fall. Thorin was at the heart of his whole plan, and the entire thing falls apart without him. Maybe Gandalf is too lawful good to do something like that, but it always bugged me that they didn't even address this.

Actually, that's very much the point. If Gandalf were like Saruman, he would have made a calculation like that. It was one of the points that reminded me that they do have a good understanding of Tolkien, for all of their missteps.

[Smaug's voice]

Nope, not the only one.

And I completely disagree with the criticism of Radagast leading the
wargs and orcs back to the dwarves. I thought the chaotic way that that
played out was much more realistic than just having him leading them
off and the dwarves escaping, particularly when more wargs and orcs
showed up from a different direction.

Again, completely agree with you.
After a few rewatches I saw it closely and it seemed that though Radagast was leading the wargs away, the orcs were coming up from unexpectec turns and he had to turn his sledge coincidentally leading nearer to the company.

[Dave_LF]

Actually, that's very much the point. If Gandalf were like Saruman, he would have made a calculation like that. It was one of the points that reminded me that they do have a good understanding of Tolkien, for all of their missteps.

That's what I'm saying though; it that was the point, they should have made it the point. Instead, they kind of sweep the whole dilemma under the rug and make Gandalf look like he's just reacting to immediate circumstances instead of trying to remain in command.

Maybe in the one of those shots show Gandalf looking frustrated and wanting to help Thorin, and just for a second Dori wonders if he's going to let him fall, but then he shakes his head and reaches down with the other hand (where he again chooses in favor of the person nearest to him, as it were, and in the most certain danger).

And I'm not sure the situation is quite so clear cut, anyway. From Gandalf's perspective, dwarves are going to die as a result of his inaction no matter what he does; at best he can choose which one(s) he wants to save. It's a lot like the situation with Famamir in Return of the King (the book), actually.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Maybe in the one of those shots show Gandalf looking frustrated and wanting to help Thorin

That's exactly what they do do. But as much as he wants to help Thorin, he can't abandoned the other Dwarves that he is supporting. To me that is as clearcut as could be.

[Dave_LF]

I never got that impression, for whatever reason. In fact, I don't think I even realized that's what they were trying to do there until my third time seeing it. There is one shot where a scared (rather than frustrated)-looking Gandalf glances over toward Thorin, but aside from that, until the eagles arrive, the two crises could be happening in two completely different scenes.

The mashup they did where they fit the OST version of the music to the footage suggests the whole thing might have been an after-the-fact addition, though, (it's all absent except for one brief shot of Dori's face), so maybe it was an 11th hour insertion made after someone previewed the footage and said "hey, why doesn't Gandalf just knock them all down again?" If so, that could explain why it isn't quite a seamless as it maybe could be.

[Passdagas the Brown]

The
one that got my own teeth grinding was toward the end where Jackson
said being stuck in burning trees with wargs and goblins at the bottom
is pretty dangerous, but he's always looking for ways to take it up
another notch, so he decided to put them at the edge of a cliff
too.

I felt that one scene did add up to the drama. Putting them near a cliff rather than at the centre of the forest.
Others ... not that much. Though I am perhaps the only one who enjoyed the Warg chase.

Edit: I agree Voronwë_the_Faithful, a very clever way to keep G busy there.

It might be clever, but it's only necessary because PJ has created an invented face-off between Thorin and Azog! In almost all cases, PJ's alterations of the narrative make the films more like Hollywood, and less like Wellywood. He's almost as OTT as Michael Bay, to be honest. Good thing his crew is there to reign him in from time to time...

[Passdagas the Brown]

I never got that impression, for whatever reason. In fact, I don't think I even realized that's what they were trying to do there until my third time seeing it. There is one shot where a scared (rather than frustrated)-looking Gandalf glances over toward Thorin, but aside from that, until the eagles arrive, the two crises could be happening in two completely different scenes.

The mashup they did where they fit the OST version of the music to the footage suggests the whole thing might have been an after-the-fact addition, though, (it's all absent except for one brief shot of Dori's face), so maybe it was an 11th hour insertion made after someone previewed the footage and said "hey, why doesn't Gandalf just knock them all down again?" If so, that could explain why it isn't quite a seamless as it maybe could be.

The Gandalf holding onto Dori and Ori with his staff was indeed a very late-stage pickup scene, shot around the time that Azog's new scenes were filmed. We see that in the AUJ EE materials.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Nope, not the only one.

And I completely disagree with the criticism of Radagast leading the wargs and orcs back to the dwarves. I thought the chaotic way that that played out was much more realistic than just having him leading them off and the dwarves escaping, particularly when more wargs and orcs showed up from a different direction.

I agree, and don't understand the criticisms of Radagast's choices in that scene. He was trying to lead them away, and trying to survive. Plus, it's already established that he's a bit of a loon, so why expect him to flee in a straight line?

However, that's far less than saying this was a scene full of realism. We have a wizard on a sled led by CGI bunnies fleeing from a bunch of CGI orcs on CGI wolves. It looked fake, felt fake, and it was a mind-numbingly long and pointless scene. For me, it's the 2nd worst scene in all four films, just behind Weathertop.

And to think they spend so much time and money on it...

A percentage of the proceeds from the film, calculated by the percentage of the film spent on the scene times the film's overall profits, should be donated to charity. End of story!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

PJ's alterations of the narrative make the films more like Hollywood, and less like Wellywood.

The problem with that statement, of course, is that Wellywood IS, essentially PJ.

That having been said, I do agree with the general criticism that Jackson is too prone to ramp things up too much when it isn't necessary, and it often is counter-productive.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Dave's descriptions of the commentary have convinced me that I absolutely do not need to purchase the physical EE. Same old unthinking, script-writing 101 nonsense we have often heard from both PJ and Philippa.

PJ also said, I believe in an Empire article, that the Hobbit book has no "emotional depth."

Fair enough, I suppose. But does he really believe that in AUJ, he remedied that? It may very well be the least emotionally deep film of the decade!

[Passdagas the Brown]

PJ's alterations of the narrative make the films more like Hollywood, and less like Wellywood.

The problem with that statement, of course, is that Wellywood IS, essentially PJ.

That having been said, I do agree with the general criticism that Jackson is too prone to ramp things up too much when it isn't necessary, and it often is counter-productive.

True, but when he sticks to "Tolkienwood" he's far more effective. Despite all the claims to the contrary, PJ's film-making sensibility (and thus, I suppose, Wellywood's sensibility) is very similar to Hollywood's.

The day-to-day workplace may be very different, and far more family-friendly (as we have seen in the EE materials) but the end product of it all is not so far from most of the Blockbusters produced in LA.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Fair enough, I suppose. But does he really believe that in AUJ, he remedied that? It may very well be the least emotionally deep film of the decade!

Oh please. There is more emotion in one millisecond of expression in Martin Freeman's face than there is in all the Transformers movies combined (for instance). Of all the ridiculously hyperbolic statements that you have made, that might be the worst.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Sorry, I didn't know there had been a Transformers film this decade.

Plus, I am really not including the really trashy films in my analysis. In the context of films that have some value, I think AUJ sits pretty low in terms of "emotional depth."

I mean, I can count the scenes of Bilbo experiencing "deep" emotions on one hand!

The main point being: if PJ thought that was a problem, why did he spend so little time with Bilbo as a character?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I've never actually seen a Transformers movie. For all I know, actually, they could be full of emotional depth and subtly.

Nah.

Anyway, you're obviously in a bad mood today, so I suggest you watch the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkblpPxLrcw

[Passdagas the Brown]

I've never actually seen a Transformers movie. For all I know, actually, they could be full of emotional depth and subtly.

Nah.

Anyway, you're obviously in a bad mood today, so I suggest you watch the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkblpPxLrcw

We did it! We did it! Woohoo!!!!!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

[Dave_LF]

I thought the book had all kinds of emotional depth. We get lots of glimpses of Bilbo feeling scared or lonely or longing for home and having to decide how to deal with that. "Emotion" doesn't just mean romantic love and being moody and depressed (because your romances aren't working out).