An eye for an eye --> whole world (literally) blind.

[Cerin]

This man, however, must have been mentally disturbed to begin with to perpetrate such an unthinkable crime.

Sadly, I disagree with you here. When you consider the deplorable things that routinely go on all over the world on a huge scale, involving horrendous mistreatment of women to satisfy men's desires, whether of ego or appetite, I don't think it can be attributed to mental disorder, unless we include common behaviors and cultural norms in a new definition of mental disorder. The use of acid as a weapon in situations such as this is not uncommon.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

It depends on how broadly one wishes to define the term "mental disorder". To my mind, no matter how common the use of acid as a weapon is it is a sign of a diseased mind. But not to the level that it should justify escaping appropriate punishment. But there is no way that putting acid in his eyes is appropriate punishment. That is just barbaric.

[anthriel]

To hell with him. I don't care a fig about him. He's a monster, and deserves every kind of pain, disfigurement and eternal damnation possible.

I worry about her. And us. I worry about allowing this monster's actions and the culture that perhaps supports these actions to bring out the monsters in us. It somehow gives him extra power to allow his actions to drive us to places we would not go, otherwise.

Put him away and throw away the key. He does not deserve to live out a normal life when she cannot. But let's not let this man's barbaric act drag us into the abyss with him.

[Primula Baggins]

It somehow gives him extra power to allow his actions to drive us to places we would not go, otherwise.

That's why I think the nature of punishment should not be determined by the nature of the crime, that right there. I can easily imagine some sick person choosing his method of assault/murder accordingly.

[Nin]

To hell with him. I don't care a fig about him. He's a monster, and deserves every kind of pain, disfigurement and eternal damnation possible.

I worry about her. And us. I worry about allowing this monster's actions and the culture that perhaps supports these actions to bring out the monsters in us. It somehow gives him extra power to allow his actions to drive us to places we would not go, otherwise.

Put him away and throw away the key. He does not deserve to live out a normal life when she cannot. But let's not let this man's barbaric act drag us into the abyss with him.

But by asking for every kind of pain and disfigurement for him you are already in the abyss with him.

[Primula Baggins]

I think if she were wishing for that kind of sentence to be carried out on him, she would not have said "Put him away and throw away the key."

What he did to that poor woman inspires primal anger and certainly thoughts of vengeance in a lot of people. That doesn't mean someone with those thoughts would carry them out or want to see them carried out. That would be the abyss.

[anthriel]

To hell with him. I don't care a fig about him. He's a monster, and deserves every kind of pain, disfigurement and eternal damnation possible.

I worry about her. And us. I worry about allowing this monster's actions and the culture that perhaps supports these actions to bring out the monsters in us. It somehow gives him extra power to allow his actions to drive us to places we would not go, otherwise.

Put him away and throw away the key. He does not deserve to live out a normal life when she cannot. But let's not let this man's barbaric act drag us into the abyss with him.

But by asking for every kind of pain and disfigurement for him you are already in the abyss with him.

VERY nice.

Nin, if you had carefully read my post, you would understand me to write "he DESERVES every kind of pain, etc.". I do believe that he deserves it, but as Prim says, "that doesn't mean someone with those thoughts would carry them out or want to see them carried out".

What I "ask" for is that we throw away the key on this guy. The rest of the post, as well as the lengthy post I made earlier in this thread, should have made that most clear.

[vison]

Gandalf's words to Frodo always come to my mind at times like this.

[Teremia]

I agree with Anthy! The man did something awful, and part of the awfulness of it is that he did not think it was so awful (he probably thought "she deserves it," because human narcissism suffers dreadful shocks when other people don't treat Us as if We were the center of the universe).

It's IMPORTANT that he be tried, and found guilty, and that that be an example to other people: no, you do not have the right to think of anybody else as your own property or to lash out when you are disappointed or to destroy people because they refuse your advances!

But it is also important that justice not be warped into something that makes monsters of the people enforcing justice. Acid in his eyes? Monstrous. Bad for the soul of anyone involved, including the victim.

Her former life cannot be returned to her, but surely there must be some way in which restitution can be put to work here. Let him spend his life working to deposit money in some account that makes her life as pleasant as it can be, under the circumstances.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Exactly right, Teremia.

[Maria]

Let him spend his life working to deposit money in some account that makes her life as pleasant as it can be, under the circumstances.

So, slavery is acceptable punishment for particularly heinous crimes?

[nerdanel]

Let him spend his life working to deposit money in some account that makes her life as pleasant as it can be, under the circumstances.

So, slavery is acceptable punishment for particularly heinous crimes?

I think it is worth considering, at least, whether labor the majority of the compensation for which goes to the victim (and most of the rest to the state) should be considered. I have never understood why it is acceptable to warehouse people for life, but directing them to work gainfully and forfeit their income as punishment for crime is outrageous.

...especially since we are, for the most part, already doing the latter. The U.S. federal government requires able-bodied inmates to work, "compensates" them 12 cents to $1.15 an hour, then garnishes most of those funds if they have any pending restitution orders or special assessments. If there was an arrangement for an inmate to be "paid" a more ordinary salary, and to redirect those funds for the victim's benefit, I think that would be extremely reasonable.

[anthriel]

Yes, I guess I'd never thought of restitution by criminals in prison as slavery. I always thought the whole idea of slaves is that they were pressed into slavery with no choice in the matter.

People who throw acid into the faces of other people, however, do that by choice. The consequences of that action are only invoked by the action itself.

Slavery, huh? Interesting concept.

[Primula Baggins]

People in prison, at least in Western countries and at least theoretically, have rights that were never extended to slaves.

[Nin]

I'm sorry Anthy, this kind of nuance is not evident to get when you read things quickly in English.

[Maria]

OK. I'm feeling dizzy now.

Some reading about the prison labor system has really shaken my world. I can kind of understand making them work to help pay for the cost of their incarceration... but renting them out to private corporations?? Private corporations selling the products they make for the company's profit?

That's stepping over the line. That's already slipping down the slippery slope.

I feel ill.

Well. the ill part is from thinking too much about incarceration, probably. Ever since I found out last year that I have a full blown phobia about being locked up, I have to be careful about putting my head in that space. I just can't think about it without extreme mental discomfort.

So, I'm leaving this conversation. It's panic inducing to think too much about this. Being locked up would drive me insane, I think. Literally. And I can't help but wonder how many prisoners have this same phobia and are locked up and........

Stopping now.

Bye.

[anthriel]

I'm sorry Anthy, this kind of nuance is not evident to get when you read things quickly in English.

Nin, I didn't realized I was being nuanced, but I do realize that English is not your first language... and I am always impressed by those people who translate while reading/posting! It must be a real challenge.

However, I would appreciate it, in the future, if you would ask me to be more clear rather than respond by throwing me into the abyss with this monster (grrrr) without truly understanding the "nuances" of my post. I am always ready to try to be more clear!


Maria: I am a bit claustrophobic myself!!

[Ghân-buri-Ghân]

A truly interesting case, and a truly arresting punishment. My own thoughts on this are that much of the opprobrium meted out to this State punishment is influenced by the State doing the punishing. It is Iran, and therefore State acts are held as intrinsically "evil". I hasten to add that I oppose all corporal punishment, from falaka in Turkey to the introduction of "acid" into the veins of prisoners deemed deserving of death in the USA. Of course, the latter transcends mere corporal punishment; it is capital punishment. It may be argued that the removal of the ability to see is worse than the ability to live, but I would find that position perverse. However, there is a continuous drip of anti-Iranian propaganda that seeks to highlight Persian "barbarism". It is convenient. Iran is an enemy, and so must be portrayed as deserving of condemnation, in every eventuality. Even when iranian justice sides with the woman, it is presented by those with a specific agenda as an aberrration, with dark undertones.

I do wonder whether those in the "enlightened" West ever grow tired of pointing at an imagined oriental barbarism. It would appear not, generally, even when the catalogue of Western atrocities is identified (I won't bother listing them. Such relativism is routinely censored).

Iran bad? Sure. But I'm left pondering... where good, if all factors are considered?

[Holbytla]

"All animals are created equal."

"Some animals are more equal than others."

Does that work?

[Túrin Turambar]

A truly interesting case, and a truly arresting punishment. My own thoughts on this are that much of the opprobrium meted out to this State punishment is influenced by the State doing the punishing. It is Iran, and therefore State acts are held as intrinsically "evil". I hasten to add that I oppose all corporal punishment, from falaka in Turkey to the introduction of "acid" into the veins of prisoners deemed deserving of death in the USA. Of course, the latter transcends mere corporal punishment; it is capital punishment. It may be argued that the removal of the ability to see is worse than the ability to live, but I would find that position perverse. However, there is a continuous drip of anti-Iranian propaganda that seeks to highlight Persian "barbarism". It is convenient. Iran is an enemy, and so must be portrayed as deserving of condemnation, in every eventuality. Even when iranian justice sides with the woman, it is presented by those with a specific agenda as an aberrration, with dark undertones.

I do wonder whether those in the "enlightened" West ever grow tired of pointing at an imagined oriental barbarism. It would appear not, generally, even when the catalogue of Western atrocities is identified (I won't bother listing them. Such relativism is routinely censored).

Iran bad? Sure. But I'm left pondering... where good, if all factors are considered?

I don't find that I need any further argument to persuade me that a criminal justice system where men are hanged in public for the crime of consensual gay sex is uncivilised. The Iranian regime may be bad because it's anti-western, but it may also be anti-western simply because it's bad.