Winter is Coming: A Game of Thrones (SPOILERS)

Post by **Ellienor** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:27 pm

Well, I've now watched two epis of Season 2. I have to say that I'll be kind of surprised if the show holds on to its audience. The challenging thing about the books (and I can see it happening in the show) is that characters that you care about and get invested in tend to get killed off/written out, and then a whole bunch of new characters get introduced and you have to start caring about their stories too. I mean, we've now almost completely left Dani and the Starks and now we're seeing Davos, Stannis (I've never really cared about Stannis' story), Littlefinger (another story I never found compelling), etc. I do think that the Imp is really great and I like that they're following his story, as well as King's Landing characters (the Queen and Joffrey). But I can see that as a challenge to the show, that they're going to have to get us interested in all of these new stories. And then the stories of the people we care about--so many of them end badly.

Hidden text.

/end spoiler

Post by **Dave_LF** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:35 pm

Since there isn't a thread specifically for these books (that I see), I'll post this observation here. Did anyone else notice how many elements this series shares with Robin Hobb's Farseer one? Off the top of my head:

-It's all about bringing dragons back
-Main characters are able to project their minds into the bodies of animals. Wolves are preferred. The practice is widely viewed as an abomination against nature. Over time, the animal becomes more human and the human becomes more animal.
-A major protagonist is a bastard incongruously born from a man who is obsessive about honor and duty. The identity of his mother is a secret.
-7 Duchies/7 kingdoms
-There was an ancient dragon civilization that was destroyed in some cataclysm.
-The slave trade is important to a part of the world that is modeled after Byzantium. The protagonists attempt to put a stop to it.
-There is a tall tower that contains a table shaped like a map of the world.

I'm positive I've noticed more than that, but they're all I remember right now.

There's no way this is a coincidence. Both series began at almost the same time--who copied whom?

Post by **narya** » Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:28 am

I met both Hobbs and Martin on the same day at Worldcon. I must be the connection!

That aside, there are bound to be overlapping tropes if you write enough books in a genre that all started from the same small canon of myths.
-Bringing dragons back is way cool
-shape shifting is way cool and telepathy is a handy way to get around difficulties with language
-bastards are a common trope for bridging us vs them (common vs royal)
-seven is a lucky number
-ancient civilizations tend to get themselves killed off
-slave trade is bad
-I don't remember the tower in ASOFAI but there were two in the realm of the elderlings

If you want to discuss this at length, you can join me on www.theplenty.net, a Hobbs-obsessed site.

Post by **Pearly Di** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:59 pm

Tolkien also borrowed many tropes.

He's still a genius, and an original.

Well, I just rented Season 1 and watched all ten episodes last week.

Wow. Just wow. This is some of the best television I've ever seen. Superb world-building, superb writing, superb acting. If this was on terrestrial TV, half of Britain would be watching!!

An American show with an all-British cast.

At least everyone is British except Peter Dinklage as Tyrion Lannister (a splendid character) and the guy who plays Jaime Lannister, who is also fabulous. Everyone is fabulous. Not just obvious people like Charles Dance, who is always awesome, but British character actors who produce, in GoT, some of the best work I've ever seen them do. Like Mark Addy, famous for playing an affable, bumbling steelworker in the 1997 comedy The Full Monty: he is phenomenal as the drunken, embittered King Robert Baratheon. Likewise Lena Headey as the creamily soft-voiced, insidious Cersei Lannister. (Never, ever, reveal your gameplan to Cersei. Ever.)

Here also is Sean Bean's finest hour. Bean's acting is more nuanced than I've ever seen it as Ned Stark, a man "honourable to the point of stupidity", as one of my Facebook friends said.

The child actors are also superb. (Why couldn't some of the Harry Potter kids have been this good?) This is not a nice world for children, by the way.

Game of Thrones is far more 'Macbeth' than it is LotR. Apparently, George RR Martin was inspired by the Wars of the Roses. I see that.

Indeed, GoT has some of the most chilling violence since the BBC’s I, Claudius, which I watched as a teenager. I, Claudius made a lot of people famous, e.g. Derek Jacobi, John Hurt, Brian Blessed and Patrick Stewart. I wouldn’t say that the GoT violence was gratuitous, exactly, unlike some of the sex scenes. (As another friend said, it's OK that many of the characters are gorgeous and many of them whore around, that's part of the story, but, honestly, some scenes are like watching a hard porn movie, and why is it only the women who feature in such explicit material?

There is some male nudity, but the female nudity far outstrips it.) Anyway, the violence: since this is a faux-medieval fantasy world, the story shows medieval-style warfare and torture in a brutally realistic way. You do need a strong stomach to watch this at times ... and the suggestion of violence is somehow even worse.

But wow, just wow. Epic, intense and astounding. Amazing characterisation: these are some of the richest characters I've ever seen on screen, and the acting is truly stellar.

I've not read the books. George RR Martin is a consultant on the series, and has written a few of the episodes. I'm put off, a bit, by the books because they are all very long, and I need an over-arching narrative to help sustain my interest. There are so many characters and sub-plots, and GRRM just seems to be adding to them all the time. I have other good books to be getting on with.

But, wow. This first book does make fantastic television.

My friends assure me that Season 2 is also worth it.

Post by **Holbytla** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:52 am

The books are in need of a good editor. They are far too wordy and there is far too much superfluous material in there.
Having said that, while I really like the HBO series, the books are more coherent and clever. The HBO story suffers somewhat because of the way the time constraints were dealt with, and visual appeal won out over story. I guess you can say that about most adaptations, but this was a miniseries that had room to let the story breath a bit more.

and why is it only the women who feature in such explicit material?

Watch Season 2.

Your point is still valid though.

Post by **narya** » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:08 am

My local cable provider offered HBO for free on line for one week. So I came back from my vacation and watched 6 hours of Season Three on Sunday, and the remaining 4 hours on Monday.

Spoiler concerning episode 7 of season 3:

Hidden text.

I was not as impressed by the quality of the third season, but perhaps it is because I watched it so quickly, and on a laptop. Or perhaps it just matches the books, which start out strong, then tend to wander like an old man as they progress through the series. I don't know how Martin is going to wrap these various threads all up. I suppose he can just kill off 50 more characters and then neatly tie up the threads of the two or three folks that remain. (Spoiler speculation about books 6 & 7:

Hidden text.

There is still no word when book 6 will be out, though GRRM has read excerpts from it at conventions. Sigh, do I sound jaded?

Edit to add spoiler tag.

Post by **Alatar** » Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:17 am

Ouch!!! That's a pretty major spoiler about Arya for those of us who haven't read the last few books Narya! The real suspense in these books is that you don't know who's safe.

In general, can I ask that people clearly label Book spoilers separately to Show spoilers? I'm up to date on the show, but choosing not to read the books until after its all complete.

Post by **anthriel** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:58 pm

mr. anth and I have rented these disks from Netflix and just finished season 3.

I had read the books, but mr. anth had not. I think I'm glad I knew what was coming; mr. anth just told me this morning that the death of Ned still bothers him. It bothered me, too, so I stepped out of the room when it was onscreen. Yes, I'm a weenie. But a forewarned weenie.

Hidden text.

Post by **Passdagas the Brown** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:39 pm

This is one if the rare instances where I think the film/ show is of higher quality than the books. GRRM is a mediocre writer, while the show is the best TV I have ever seen.

Post by **Smaug's voice** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:54 pm

I haven't seen the series or read the books. But hearing about the excesses of "fan-service" in the series a.k.a. R-rated scenes, I never thought it can be the best TV-series.

So I am intrigued by PtB's comment, as I know he is generally against fan-service!

Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:17 pm

The scenes of nudity (which I never saw as "fan" service) are actually quite few and far between. In season 1 and 2 it was sometimes rather gratuitous (and the "sexposition" could be annoying), but this was toned down in season 3. But compared to most television shows on HBO, it barely has any nudity. And when it does, it's usually appropriate for the world we're watching.

Along with Breaking Bad and Battlestar Galactica, Game of Thrones is the best American-produced TV show I have ever seen.

In terms of writing - though I know the format is completely different - the LOTR scriptwriters are like teenaged delinquents compared to the GoT writers. This show makes me pine for a LOTR television series. Imagine 90 hours of LOTR, focusing on the main Frodo and Fellowship storyline, but also cutting to Erebor, Mirkwood, Lórien, Gondor, etc...The epic awesomeness would be overwhelming.

Post by **narya** » Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:42 am

Passdagas the Brown wrote: This show makes me pine for a LOTR television series. Imagine 90 hours of LOTR, focusing on the main Frodo and Fellowship storyline, but also cutting to Erebor, Mirkwood, Lórien, Gondor, etc...The epic awesomeness would be overwhelming.

I agree that a lengthy miniseries handling of Tolkien's world would be wonderful, but I cringe to imagine an HBO-ified version. They'd have to add a lot more than Tariel, doing a lot more than exchanging chaste looks.

Post by **Passdagas the Brown** » Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:45 am

narya wrote:
Passdagas the Brown wrote: This show makes me pine for a LOTR television series. Imagine 90 hours of LOTR, focusing on the main Frodo and Fellowship storyline, but also cutting to Erebor, Mirkwood, Lórien, Gondor, etc...The epic awesomeness would be overwhelming.
I agree that a lengthy miniseries handling of Tolkien's world would be wonderful, but I cringe to imagine an HBO-ified version. They'd have to add a lot more than Tariel, doing a lot more than exchanging chaste looks.

As I have said before, imagine the "Galadriel, Frodo and Sam in the glade" scene done for HBO!

So no, I wouldn't want HBO to do a LOTR series, as I am afraid of just that. But another competent network doing it, with great writers, directors, actors, and excellent production value, is something I hope happens in my lifetime.

Post by **anthriel** » Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:07 pm

Okay, so no one's going to address my blacked-out question above.

(SV brought up the gratuitous sex stuff, and THAT will change the course of a discussion, boy howdy.)

Actually, I think I know "why" she did it... she said she would. But it still seems a less than noble act for her, in the last moment of her life. That girl was as innocent as either of Cat's daughters.

And speaking of the sex stuff (you know we will.... ); I keep reading that it is not that over-the-top for HBO, which I totally accept, because I guess I never watch anything on HBO. But I kind of resent it, because it makes it too uncomfortable for us to watch as a family. Even though my kids are technically adult, it's too weird to sit and watch scenes like that with them. Heck, it would be hard to watch that with MY dad, and he and I have both been adults for a while.

It just rings of... unnecessary. (!)

Post by **Smaug's voice** » Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:41 pm

Passdagas the Brown wrote:The scenes of nudity (which I never saw as "fan" service)
are actually quite few and far between. In season 1 and 2 it was
sometimes rather gratuitous (and the "sexposition" could be annoying),
but this was toned down in season 3. But compared to most television
shows on HBO, it barely has any nudity. And when it does, it's usually
appropriate for the world we're watching.

One friend (who is a fan) at TORC said that most of the sex scenes are clearly meant as eye-candy and is always a case of boobs flying here and there. :lol: that doesnt sound like few.

plus, as Di said above nearly all of the nudity involves women only, which to me suggests its not meant for realism. Rather fan service. For
men.
Even if for realism, wouldn't it be appropriate to take a more subtle approach? At least for those scenes which are not necessarily needed to be shown?

Post by **Smaug's voice** » Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:48 pm

anthriel wrote:Okay,
so no one's going to address my blacked-out question above. (SV
brought up the gratuitous sex stuff, and THAT will change the course of a
discussion, boy howdy.)

Actually, I think I know "why" she did it... she said she would. But it
still seems a less than noble act for her, in the last moment of her
life. That girl was as innocent as either of Cat's daughters.

And speaking of the sex stuff (you know we will.... ); I keep reading
that it is not that over-the-top for HBO, which I totally accept,
because I guess I never watch anything on HBO. But I kind of resent it,
because it makes it too uncomfortable for us to watch as a family. Even
though my kids are technically adult, it's too weird to sit and watch
scenes like that with them. Heck, it would be hard to watch that with MY
dad, and he and I have both been adults for a while.

It just rings of... unnecessary. (!)

Aah, sorry Anthy for misdirecting the discussion!

But I agree. The fact that other HBO shows have excess nudity doesnt excuse GoT for having less of it. It still is, by and large, unnecessary.
From my zero knowledge on GoT of course!

Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:14 pm

I would answer your question, my dear anth, if I could, but I've never seen it, never read the book, and have little interest in doing so.

I could make up an answer if you like

Post by **Dave_LF** » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:17 pm

Of course the sex scenes are unnecessary--the whole story is unnecessary from start to finish. It and most other stories and all the scenes they contain were created for the sole purpose of adding unnecessary entertainment to what would otherwise be a fairly dull existence. And are you not entertained? The numbers suggest you are.

To address a different point: "fan service" usually refers to adding minutiae to a series or adaptation for the sole purpose of pleasing the hard-core fanbase. To really meet the definition, it has to be something that would completely go over the head of the casual viewer. Or better yet, confuse and annoy him.

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:19 pm

I still haven't watched the scene in question or the rest of that season. Even though I know what's in it. I may follow your example, Anthy, and step out of view of the screen until it's over.

As for your question, I guess an extra note of cruelty? Or possibly (assuming it's in the book) he layered it in to give a foundation for some later plot turn involving vengeance. It seems to be a big thing in this world, almost the only reason anyone ever does anything. . . .

Post by **Jude** » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:26 pm

I have to confess, I'm reading the series, and I'm only continuing because I'm hooked enough to want to know what happens. I doubt I'll ever return to re-read it once I'm done.

And I have absolutely no desire to ever see the TV series, despite all the glowing reviews. Reading all scenes of gratuitous cruelty was harrowing enough.