Arizona Immigration Law

[yovargas]

The republicans seem to finally be hearing their constituents about the issue, which is why they won't support "comprehensive immigration reform..."

Could you see why, after some Republicans had softer attitudes and policies on immigration when they were in power but now that Obama is they're all ultra hard-line, this would look to many people as simply being obstructionist more then "hearing their constituents"? Especially since, if high level Reps. like Bush and McCain had softer views on immigration, I'm quite confident that many Rep. citizens do as well. Or at least they did. Until Democrats got elected.

[River]

Wilma, it's the type of work and where the immigrants are coming from. the illegals people are all up in arms about by an large come from Mexico and countries south of Mexico, where unskilled jobs do not pay a living wage. So they come here, and do jobs Americans and Canadians really really wouldn't want to do, like pick fruit and pack meat. Here, they make enough to stay housed and fed AND send money home so their families are also housed and fed. Or they bring family with them, because there are oppurtunities here. Illegals also come in from other parts of the world, but for various geopolitical reasons Central America is the biggest source, or, at least, is portrayed as the biggest source.

There are also people who end up in this country illegally but thought they were legal. There was a bust here in Boulder recently in which a group of Thai slaves paid money in Thailand to come here and work and believed that their money had gone to a visa application. Where it had really gone was to a smuggler hired by an unscrupulous restaurant owner who, when the worker arrived, seized their papers and enslaved them. Fortunately, the US currently amnesties people who are trafficked in such a manner if they're willing to come forward and talk. But cases like these are the minority.

A person can, of course, get a potential employer to sponsor them for a H2-B and perform their unskilled labor legally, with the added protections of the US labor laws, but that costs an employer more than hiring illegals. Also, there's a limit on both H1s and H2s and that limit tends to be below the demand. Really, one apparently simple step in the right direction would be first opening up more of these worker visas and then prosecuting people who hire illegals. It's not a perfect solution - being on a H visa is a sort of indenture - but it's better than the current garbage. But apparently even going that far is politically unacceptable.

All of that aside, if I lived in Canada I'm not sure why I'd be wanting to sneak over the US border. Not that it would be hard to do - some of those crossings are controlled by a phone booth - but what would be the motivation? People are, by and large, as wealthy, safe, and educated in Canada as they are in the US. That's not true for Mexico and part of the reason why most of our problems are on that southern border.

[Hachimitsu]

All of that aside, if I lived in Canada I'm not sure why I'd be wanting to sneak over the US border. Not that it would be hard to do - some of those crossings are controlled by a phone booth - but what would be the motivation? People are, by and large, as wealthy, safe, and educated in Canada as they are in the US. That's not true for Mexico and part of the reason why most of our problems are on that southern border.

That is what I was hinting at.

I would like to have an idea on how Mexico contributes to this. It is pretty bad when people are running from your country and the government is thinking that is ok. I do think that remittance money could be a small part of why Mexico may not be helping to end this problem.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Wilma, I share your ambivalence about this issue. It bothers me that people who follow the rules are penalized, and those who don't are rewarded. But I also know that it simply isn't that simple, and that there are many other variables. And, even more, I recognize that there must be a pragmatic approach to solving this problem - which has to include a multi-pronged comprehensive reform - or it will just get worse and worse.

[River]

Oh I'm sure remittance money is a huge deal to Mexico. Remittance money is a huge deal in any poor country. In Serbia, the families that are doing well are the families who have someone either working in the US, Canada, or EU or they've got someone working for an American, Canadian, or EU-based company with an operation in Serbia. What's scary is S sends chunks of change home to almost monthly and while it makes a huge difference to his family, it's hardly a sacrifice for him.

[Hachimitsu]

Yeah my family has done it too. It is imporrtant and is a partial reason for immigrating.

[halplm]

The republicans seem to finally be hearing their constituents about the issue, which is why they won't support "comprehensive immigration reform..."

Could you see why, after some Republicans had softer attitudes and policies on immigration when they were in power but now that Obama is they're all ultra hard-line, this would look to many people as simply being obstructionist more then "hearing their constituents"? Especially since, if high level Reps. like Bush and McCain had softer views on immigration, I'm quite confident that many Rep. citizens do as well. Or at least they did. Until Democrats got elected.

They're not all ultra-hard line. They're hypocritical, and it's one reason the tea party movement refuses to be hijacked by the Republican party.


Mass Deportation is not necessary to enforce the law, and I know of no conservative position suggesting it is necessary.

It is often brought up by liberals to show why enforcing the law is not practical... because it's a stupid idea to deport millions of people who have been here a long time.

Illegals will leave if it is no longer beneficial for them to be here. If they can't find work because employers will not hire them, or if they are given massive government handouts. They will leave on their own. The only ones that need active deportation are the criminals in addition to being here illegally...

[Hachimitsu]

The immigrants are not going to leave just because the US makes it uncomfortable. They are not going to go back where they came from. No matter how bad it is in the US, it's worse back home. Just simply because the US operates on admirable principles (like the rule of law),and also they can afford to uphold them (compared to where thay came from). The only way they would leave the US is if it got as bad as it is back home. Which I don't imagine would happen unless the US acts like hypocrits and start violating their own principles. This is why the US got so much international criticism under the previous administration. Keep in mind every country does this too (look up Mahar Arar as a Canadian example) but the US is very powerful nation and if the US considers itself a "world leader" they have to stick by their principles.

Also if they aren't going to back home where they heck are that leave the US to go to?

About handouts, the reason the illegals are coming to the US is to work.To simply earn a living wage, and support themselves. They can't do that at home and that is in part why they are migrating in the first place. Whether legally or illegally. They aren't looking for handouts generally.

[Hachimitsu]

Sorry if my previous post was a bit messy, it's hard to edit posting from an Ipod.

[Griffon64]

How can illegal immigrants' home countries be transformed into places that are good to live in?

[vison]

How can illegal immigrants' home countries be transformed into places that are good to live in?

Revolution. Whether bloodless or bloody, that's the only answer. People have to do it themselves, as history shows.

[River]

The hand-outs thing mystifies me. Really it does. Do people not realize that in order to qualify for government aid you must be either a citizen or permanent resident??

[Primula Baggins]

Some classify government aid as including public education and the use of the public infrastructure such as roads.

[River]

Oh. Um, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

[Hachimitsu]

Lol!

Is that a part of why the healthcare bill was so controversial?

[Griffon64]

Public services are paid for by taxpayers, but used by all. So there is a train of thought that holds that those who use these things but do not pay for it ( i.e. don't pay income taxes in particular, though there are other kinds of taxes of course ) are receiving handouts. Of course, there is some irony to it because the intricate network of tax refunds cause a fair portion of middle income suburbian Americans to end up paying no taxes - and I'm sure among that number is another fair number who are very against "handouts". But there you go.

Revolution. Whether bloodless or bloody, that's the only answer. People have to do it themselves, as history shows.

I agree with the fact that people have to do it themselves. Unfortunately, the new power doesn't necessarily focus on the advancement of the people, either. South Africa had a bloodless revolution of sorts. Sixteen years later, some basic services have been brought to the poor, and a new veneer of rich elite has been installed, but desperate poverty still abound. Yet, South Africa is better off than many countries to the north, leading to an influx of illegal immigrants and the resultant xenophobia ( which mostly manifest itself in the still mostly black townships, where the new [ black ] residents are often the targets of sporadic, targeted violence. )

[nerdanel]

So there is a train of thought that holds that those who use these things but do not pay for it ( i.e. don't pay income taxes in particular, though there are other kinds of taxes of course ) are receiving handouts.

One factual point re: payment of income taxes:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/tax ... axes_N.htm

[River]

Also, everyone who buys stuff pays sales taxes. And since landlords typically roll property taxes into the rent, even people who don't own homes are paying that too.

[Griffon64]

I didn't say I supported that train of thought; I only pointed out it existed. I don't need any convincing that it is a train of thought that doesn't run on tracks of pure, straight fact. I mentioned about other kinds of taxes, the kind everybody pays ( such as property tax & sales tax ), too.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Some classify government aid as including public education and the use of the public infrastructure such as roads.

I don't believe that anyone here has stated or suggested such a thing. At least not in this thread.