Arizona Immigration Law

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Adding further to the mess:

Threats flood into Arizona judge’s office after SB-1070 ruling.

[halplm]

Adding further to the mess:

Threats flood into Arizona judge’s office after SB-1070 ruling.

I assume this is the mess you were talking about:

Protesters plan to be arrested

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Yes, that is part of the mess that I am referring to (and presumably part of what Anthy was referring to). But the main mess, from my point of view, is our disfunctional immigration system, and the failure to fix it (blame for which can be appropriated to both parties).

[Hachimitsu]

From being away from this, it seems to that the law while terrible, was passed to highlight that the state of Arizona can't be stuck holding the bag anymore when it comes to the failures of immigration law. Just wanted to say that. I will be catching up.

[axordil]

The powers that be in Mexico aren't blameless either, I'm afraid.

[halplm]

no one in government is blameless. That's the entire problem. The government[s] refuse to do anything because the individual politicians profit (or think they do) from doing nothing.

That is why AZ passed 1070, because continuing to do nothing is costing the citizens of AZ money, safety, property, and life!

And the Federal Government is saying "screw you guys, we don't want to do anything, and you can't make us!"

One of the reasons McCain never had a chance against Obama, is that he was in favor of amnesty!

There is going to be more and more serious trouble as long as elected officials do not FIX the problem. And no amount of screaming racism is going to stop that.

[yovargas]

The government[s] refuse to do anything because the individual politicians profit (or think they do) from doing nothing.

Really, I think it's mostly that the issue is too damn controversial for most any politician to wanna touch it.

[JewelSong]

One of the reasons McCain never had a chance against Obama, is that he was in favor of amnesty!

Who was in favor? Obama or McCain?

[Frelga]

Both of them, IIRC.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Well, not exactly amnesty, but a path to legalization. Unfortunately, not a single GOP Senator is now willing to endorse a comprehensive immigration reform plan that includes any realistic solution to the problem of illegal immigrants currently working in the country (since "deport them all" is simply not realistic). That's what's so frustrating about this debate. The Republicans in Arizona and elsewhere say we need to implement these harsh (and unconsititional) measures because the Federal government won't address the problem, but the federal government can't address the problem because the Republican party won't support proposals that just a few years ago were being proposed by the Bush administration.

[Hachimitsu]

Yes, I remember just before Sept 11, Bush was trying to do something about it. I was actually quite pleased with this and I thought maybe having Bush might not be so bad. But then Sept 11 happaned and Bush went from saying Mexico was America's important friend to England being an in important friend. (On the day though who did they call to take in all those flights with God knows who, on the planes? It wasn't Mexico or England. Yep I am a bit bitter)

I never thought Arizona would actually go forth and actually implement this law. Maybe it's just a giant game of chicken. I can understand the desperation, because when there is no money, there is no money and getting more money won't fix the problem anyway. This law is so bad police don't seem to want to touch it.

Who is going to call 911 when there is an emergency if they are afraid of getting caught? Once when a child was hit by a car, once he came to, he was pulling on my shirt begging to stop calling 911!!! That sort of thinking can lead to other crimes not gettting reported and people dying.

For amnesty, how is that going to prevent people from illegally crossing the border hoping to get amnesty too? That could be considered validating queue jumping.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

The McCain-Kennedy immigration bill that Bush supported was actually in 2006, five years after 9/11.

For amnesty, how is that going to prevent people from illegally crossing the border hoping to get amnesty too?

The plan was to both stiffen border enforcement, and provide a legal work program that would mitigate the need for any ongoing legalization programs.

[Hachimitsu]

There was something with Mexico just before September 11th. It was 2 weeks before I think. There were ads with a latino member of the Bush family and there was some kind of acknowlegment that something had to be done. The family member was young and attractive was getting fangirls. Everyone practically forgot about it, and I don't remember the details. It did stick in my mind at the time, since I was kind of bitter as I mentioned above.

For a legal work program, I can sort of see Hal's concerns about indentured workers.

[Hachimitsu]

Ok I think I remember, the ads were a part of Bush's appeal to latino voters, where he said he would address the problem of illegal immigration. I remember the ads being framed as "kinder" to Illegal immigration. Immigration reform would not harm or hurt the illegals already there, and it would make it easier for them to get there relatives up. There was an acknowledgment that latino immigrants want to work and contribute to the economy. ( Before from what I had from some Republicans was, "make the fence higher" , "deport them", "they are criminals" etc) I remember being impressed with that part. I remember after September11th that was not brought up again.

Considering he did support the plan put out McCain in 2006, he did keep his promise on that (I am a bit surprised I am saying good stuff about Bush).

So what this is boiling down to, is that immigration reform has been stalled in a refusal to act in a bipartisan way? It's more important to stick it to Obama then to solve this problem?

[Primula Baggins]

To stick it to Obama in hopes of being able to take over the House of Representatives at least in the fall elections, yes. If the Republicans take over the house, the rest of Obama's term will be taken up with subpoena after subpoena, investigation after investigation, just as they did to Clinton. Until they find something that sticks just well enough that they can impeach him, just as they did to Clinton. (Of course, they may well not find anything like that; Obama's a lot more self-controlled than Clinton, and certainly no less smart.)

[River]

For a legal work program, I can sort of see Hal's concerns about indentured workers.

But that's how it is already. If you're a non-resident alien on a worker visa, you can only get your visa through your employer and your visa is only valid so long as you stay with your sponsoring employer. The H1s are good for three years and you get one renewal. H2s are shorter, structure for seasonal demands for unskilled labor. If you have a spouse, they can enter and live with you on a spouse pass but they can't work unless they get themselves a worker visa. If you want to change jobs, you've got to get a new visa. If you get laid off, you have one month to find a new job and new visa or you must leave the country. This happened to some friends of ours. They're in England now. Furthermore, the visa supply does not meet the demand so if there aren't any visas left, sayonara baby. Back to wherever unless you can marry an American - S and I know a couple who married about a year before they planned to because her H1-B application was rejected. Furthermore, if you pay the bri^H^H^H expedite fee, your visa is more or less guaranteed, but the fee isn't exactly small. When S was applying for his H1 back in 2005, is was $1000. His employer paid up because it would be that hard to find someone else who can do what S does and, at the time, he was working for a small start-up run by a couple very nice, humane guys.

Green cards are another story. A green card holder can do just about anything a citizen can, except vote or serve on a jury or be employed by certain government agencies (and security clearances to work with defense contractors might be tricky to obtain as well). A nice employer might throw you into the green card queue as soon as the H1 comes through (not sure about H2's). S's employer did that for him, which was nice because once you've got your labor certificate (pre-green card) you aren't indentured anymore, but most employers don't do that until their immigrant labor has maxed out their visa renewals. But S's former employer was more exception than rule and even then their lawyer was really pushing him to just marry me because that's a faster and cheaper way to get a green card. As it was, it took almost a year for the labor permit to come through and roughly another year for the green card to arrive. That was fast and it only happened because someone in the Bush Administration decided to release all the applications being held up in the background check phase (this can be tricky because the FBI needs to obtain and translate records from an immigrant's home country and not all countries keep good records nor does the FBI necessarily have enough translators) with the understanding that, once the background check came through and something bad came up, the green card would be revoked. I'm not too worried about S because even though he was very active in the opposition to Milosevic he never got arrested. Most of the time though, the waiting game takes years and if they lose your papers at one of the processing centers (not an unknown occurrence) it's somehow all your fault and you have to go back to the beginning. Once you have the green card, you need to wait a few more years before you're allowed into the citizen queue, which can be just as long though less frightening - a green card lasts ten years and then you can renew it.

That's not even going into all the other byzantine ins and outs and the special rules that only apply to people from certain countries and so on. There are lawyers whose sole purpose in life is immigration law and larger companies and universities will actually retain an immigration lawyer or two to deal with the issues as they arise. S has a friend who had "sponsor me for a green card" included in his hiring package. The thing with the illegals is a symptom of the disease, I think, not the disease itself. And really, the only practical solution to the issue of illegal immigration is to amnesty the people already here AND open up more guest worker visas so that those who would cross our border to find work can do so legally. Getting rid of the indentured servitude aspects of the US worker visa system (and I agree, it sucks...in fact, if you can't tell, I've had close-hand experience with the suck) is something else that would require reform so comprehensive I don't think this country has the belly for it.

[halplm]

Bush's massive unpopularity among conservatives while primarily was about spending... was probably secondarily about his failure to do anything about immigration.

The republicans seem to finally be hearing their constituents about the issue, which is why they won't support "comprehensive immigration reform..." which is simply another way of saying amnesty.

If illegals can stay legally without consequence... that is amnesty no matter what you rename it.

We already have a path to citizenship... it's called immigration.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

That's a perfectly reasonable attitude, hal, but it simply isn't realistic. As Ax pointed out earlier in the thread, the Obama administration has considerably increased the number of people deported. Enforcement by itself simply isn't going to solve the problem. The 2006 bill had numerous important provision, including making it a crime for employers to hire illegal workers, in addition to the special guest worker program, and a path to citizenship for current illegal immigrants that included significant penalties. Those provisions together could have helped prevent the problem from continuing to mount exponentially.

[River]

The republicans seem to finally be hearing their constituents about the issue, which is why they won't support "comprehensive immigration reform..." which is simply another way of saying amnesty.

No. It's not.

Think of it this way. You have a house. It's in rough shape. The mice have gotten in. So you need to do two things: you need to get rid of the mice and you need to make sure they never get in again. Amnesty (because we're talking about humans who provide needed labor, not mice who eat your socks) or mass deportation is the first thing. Comprehensive reform is the second thing.

[Hachimitsu]

To me personally I am mixed on this issue as one family member had to wait four years to get up here as they went through all the legal paths. Parents applied at 4 years old couldn't be with their parents until 8. Queue jumping is a huge issue for that person, and it's pretty valid I think. But for the illegals there has to be a really good reason they would come to the US, and work jobs that aren't that great. I mean, there is not a giant problem of Canadians illegally crossing.

River, I think you are right that the country is not ready for the level of reform required.

Also if a law like the Arizona immigration law is actually going to be enforced, this will make the US as a whole look terrible internationally. Enfocing a law similar to Nazi Germany in it's persecution of Jews. It looks like the US is violating their own principles. Now I know some Americans don't care, but this sort of thing can be used to justify hatred of Americans. Considering US security concerns I don't think it is a good thing to look this bad.

I find I have to say, "not all Americans are like that" when people tell me horrible things about Americans. With this now I am not sure what to say.

EDIT: Had to make something clear