National Prayer Day unconstituitonal

Post by **Maria** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:33 pm

If it could be shown that having a whole lot of people praying for the same thing at the same time had a tangible effect on reality, then the leader of a country would be totally justified in asking everyone to wish for the same thing at the same time.

Since that has yet to be proven, there's not much point in having a national prayer day.

Post by **Cerin** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:50 pm

Just wanted to point out that praying isn't the same thing as wishing.

Post by **Maria** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:56 pm

Semantics.

Post by **Cerin** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:12 pm

Yes. Those words mean different things.

Post by **Nin** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:20 pm

Frelga wrote:Absolutely, Cerin, it is having the law that I feel crosses the line. A believing President asking believing citizens to pray with him, as you say, is a different matter and I don't see it as controversial.

Still problematic for me if he acts that way within his presidential function which is an official function for a secular state.

Post by **Maria** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:28 pm

Petition type prayer is wishing with magical oomph behind it, if done right. A leader would be remiss in not utilizing a resource like that.... IF mass prayer was more effective than single prayer.

Post by **Nenochtoo** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:51 pm

Not that big of deal, one can can take part or not, but the scary afterthought I have is - Why all of sudden is our national leader wanting us to pray ?

Is getting to the point where there's nothing left to embrace or depend on but hopes and prayers ?

Making the reapings of one small harvest last until the next while praying for rain during a growing season in years growing ever so dry ?

Post by **MithLuin** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:12 pm

It's not 'all of a sudden' - Congress decided in 1952 that the president would mark one day each year as the National Day of Prayer. Of course, they all write their own proclamation. I quoted the text of Lincoln's and Obama's in full so you could see the very different tones of one in the midst of a crisis, when the US was engaged in civil war, and one that was more just a 'wouldn't it be nice if people prayed for the country' type of thing. I found Obama's language to be very mild in comparison to Lincoln's, and like in his inaugural address, it acknowledge that people in this country have the freedom not to worship if that is what they choose.

Post by **Nenochtoo** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:25 pm

Honestly this is the first I've heard of it, of course having never even known there was such a National Day,,, up until now there has been no need for me to participate.

What are they suppose to be praying for anyway ?

Post by **MithLuin** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:50 pm

Most of the groups that organize events for the National Day of Prayer are evangelical Christians. So, you would be more likely to be aware of it if you were one

. You may observe it (or ignore it) in any way you see fit, but generally prayer consists of praising God, thanking Him for blessings received, confessing sins sorrowfully, and petitioning for more blessings. Any or all of those things could be done with a focus on the country as a whole or our nation's leaders in particular.

But of course we're free to do that any day we like. One church I attended said a 'prayer for our country' before each weekly service, and I think most of the times there is a petition for our nation, the armed forces, and/or our political leaders in the prayer of the faithful at Catholic masses.

Post by **Lidless** » Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:08 am

National Prayer Day?

Really? Yes, that's not exactly constitutional! I'm also looking forward to the 'In God We Trust' being kicked to the kerb as well. OK, like National Prayer Day it doesn't mention a specific god, but not everyone believes in them.

And if you know your bible, you are supposed to pray in private, not at some event that no doubt will be organised and many will attend and (want to) be seen at.

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:33 am

That is one of the peculiarities of this country, yes.

Edited for rudeness

Post by **Pearly Di** » Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:17 am

Lidless wrote:And if you know your bible, you are supposed to pray in private, not at some event that no doubt will be organised and many will attend and (want to) be seen at.

The Bible mentions both private and corporate prayer, actually.

But it's certainly against any kind of showing off and 'look at me I'm so holy' attitudes.

As I mentioned before, King George VI organised several National Days of Prayer in the UK during WW2.

The issue here seems to be that it seems very weird for Congress to mandate a President to organise one.

Post by **axordil** » Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:46 pm

The legislation establishing National Prayer Day dates from the same "we have to prove we're not godless Commies" period as the addition of "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance.

Post by **JewelSong** » Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:03 pm

National Day of Prayer has been around for a while...and I always thought it was a bit odd, although I certainly didn't find it offensive. Like Di, I think it is out of place for something such as prayer to be mandated but I have no issue with the President praying and asking people to join him, if they so choose.

I honestly don't see why the idea should make anyone "ROFL".

I am not surprised that this National Day of Prayer started in the 1950s. That was also when they officially added the "under God" to the pledge of allegiance". It was during the Cold War, a very scary time for many people.

Lidless wrote:I'm also looking forward to the 'In God We Trust' being kicked to the kerb as well.

Not going to happen anytime soon, as it is part of our national heritage...and why on earth would it matter to you?

I have to say that my all-time favorite Presidential prayer is the one by tMorgan Freeman as President Beck in the movie "Deep Impact" when it appears that the world is going to be smashed to smithereens by the comet.

I wish... No. Wishing is wrong. It's the wrong word right now. That's not what I mean. What I mean is...I believe in God. I know a lot of you don't,
but I still want to offer a prayer...for our survival. Mine included. Because I believe that God -,whomever you hold that to be - hears all prayers, even if sometimes the answer is "no."

So, may the Lord bless you.
May the Lord keep you.
May the Lord lift up His divine
countenance upon you...
and give you peace.

Post by **Frelga** » Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:09 pm

Nin wrote:
Frelga wrote:Absolutely, Cerin, it is having the law that I feel crosses the line. A believing President asking believing citizens to pray with him, as you say, is a different matter and I don't see it as controversial.
Still problematic for me if he acts that way within his presidential function which is an official function for a secular state.

Well, I am not exactly thrilled with it myself, truth be told. The President's job is to take care of business. Those of us who are religious usually turn to our spiritual guides for spiritual support. However, I am sympathetic to a man (or a woman, one hopes) shouldering a huge burden if he also feels the need to turn to a higher power in a crisis. So long as he is a) sincere rather than currying favor with certain groups, b) is also taking care of business and c) is doing it in the spirit of "God give me strength" and not "God please fix it."

Jewel wrote:I honestly don't see why the idea should make anyone "ROFL".

That one branch of secular government directs the head of another branch to call citizens to prayer? I suppose it may seem normal to someone who grew up in the culture of prayer. I will be honest, reading about it was one of the biggest "They what?" moments of my week, and that says something in this office.

Post by **Lidless** » Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:33 pm

JewelSong wrote:
Lidless wrote:I'm also looking forward to the 'In God We Trust' being kicked to the kerb as well.
Not going to happen anytime soon, as it is part of our national heritage...and why on earth would it matter to you?

Apologies for having an opinion about the most powerful nation on earth that happens to impinge on every person on this planet.

You and Prim - am I also allowed to have and express an opinion on things I have not experienced and do not completely affect me, such as tsunamis, soccer and hair products?

Yes, it bugs me that 'In God We Trust' is the official national motto, and has been that way for the grand sum of 46 years (some heritage, even if the phrase has been on coins for 140 years).

A national motto based on religious musings. Not, historically, the best of mixes.

Post by **JewelSong** » Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:51 pm

Yes, it bugs me that 'In God We Trust' is the official national motto,

Oh well...you are certainly free to be bugged about it.

But I doubt it will change anytime soon. And frankly, I think there are far greater priorities than worrying about what is written on my cash. Even if it bugged me, I wouldn't put an energy into changing it.

I did see a sign in a shop once that said "In God we trust. All others pay cash."

Post by **Cerin** » Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:21 pm

There was a very recent Ninth Circuit Court decision ruling the Pledge of Allegiance and 'In God we Trust' Constitutional.

Post by **Maria** » Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:33 pm

Frelga wrote:is doing it in the spirit of "God give me strength" and not "God please fix it."

How is supernatural strength morally better than direct assistance?