The Middle-earth 1200

An exhaustive compilation of the characters of Tolkien's legendarium, in order of importance, by Dân o Nandor on Anduin
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Re: #s 1050-1041

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Dân o Nandor on Anduin wrote:#1049 Hiril sister of Beren Erchamion
A controversial entry, no doubt, this daughter of Barahir and Emeldir appears in changes made to ‘Bëor table II’, the final tree we’re given on the genealogy of the 1st House of the Edain composed at the end of the sub-section ‘Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain’, found at the end of the chapter ‘Of the Coming of men into the West’ in the ‘Later Quenta Silmarillion’. Thus, unlike Idis daughter of Théoden, no final publication exists to warrant discounting Hiril’s late (post-LotR) appearance in the working cosmology.
I'm perfectly comfortable with this one, but ...
#1048 Maidros father of Finwë
Likewise, back in ‘Lost Tales I’, before Fëanor’s son was in existence, his grandfather was named simply as the father of his father. Nothing more to the narrative than that, and since there’s no reference to a father of Finwë anywhere else, one could posit that Fëanor named his firstborn after his grandfather, a ubiquitous progenitor of the Noldor. Or not.
Now THAT is controversial! But not necessarily unsupportable. I have always had the impression that in the final conception the three ambassadors to Valinor were among those who awoke by the shores of Kuivienen (and those had no parents). But perhaps not.
Can’t wait for #300! How bout you?
Too far to look ahead. There is too much to look forward to between then and now. :)
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Post by sador »

Dân o Nandor on Anduin wrote:#1060 Elentir brother of Amandil
...CT says these sketches “in fact followed the writing of the long rider to the Akallabêth, and they represent the emergence of a doubt in my father’s mind whether the marriage [of Ar-Pharazộn to Tar-Míriel] was indeed ‘against her will’, and the sketching of a new story on the subject”.
It's a pity that this wasn't completed. Tar-Míriel as written is a quite flat and uninteresting character. :(
#1058 Mogru the Master of Agar
“a fat man with eyes like a lizard”, is Master of the town of the young Tal-elmar... unfortunately the tale goes unfinished.
Another one with an unfulfilled potential, and several mysterious hints. And Mogru could also do with a lot of fleshing out.
#1057 Oikeroi thane of Tevildo
In the ‘Tale of Tinúviel’, Sauron was in his early incarnation as Tevildo Prince of Cats

I'm not sure that was Sauron. The wizard Tú, who was involved in the first finding of Men, and who leaned towards Melko but was afraid of Manwë, seems a better choice - both because of his politics and because the next incarnation of him is ith the name Thú. I think it more likely that Tevildo was discarded, and Tú was given his role as the first jailor of Beren.
On the other hand, I think such a reading would better justify the inclusion of Oikeroi and his mates, according to your approach!
#1056 Borlas of Pen-arduin
‘Old Borlas’ is one of the 2 main characters of ‘The New Shadow’
And a grandson of Beregond (which you forgot to mention).
#1055 Barrow-wight waiting for Frodo
Do you consider it to be the same which eventually imprisoned Frodo?
#1054 the Lonely Troll
The 2nd of 5 trolls to appear gets his 3pts for 3 lines in Foster’s Guide.
So you count Foster's Guide by number of text lines?
#1052 Yávien niece of Tar-Amandil
...2pts for a paragraph in Wikipedia.
Does Wikipedia deem her important enough to warrant a paragraph?
#1051 Meleth nurse of Eärendil
She is one of 7 healers appearing.
I'm not sure 'nurse' means healer in this context.

Well, we’re now one eighth of the way through the list.
:cheers:
And thanks for the fun!
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

sador wrote:
Dân o Nandor on Anduin wrote:#1060 Elentir brother of Amandil
...CT says these sketches “in fact followed the writing of the long rider to the Akallabêth, and they represent the emergence of a doubt in my father’s mind whether the marriage [of Ar-Pharazộn to Tar-Míriel] was indeed ‘against her will’, and the sketching of a new story on the subject”.
It's a pity that this wasn't completed. Tar-Míriel as written is a quite flat and uninteresting character. :(
I have often thought this. Not just that she is a flat character as written, but that the outlines of the new story were potentially really interesting.
#1057 Oikeroi thane of Tevildo
In the ‘Tale of Tinúviel’, Sauron was in his early incarnation as Tevildo Prince of Cats

I'm not sure that was Sauron. The wizard Tú, who was involved in the first finding of Men, and who leaned towards Melko but was afraid of Manwë, seems a better choice - both because of his politics and because the next incarnation of him is ith the name Thú. I think it more likely that Tevildo was discarded, and Tú was given his role as the first jailor of Beren.
I would say rather that Sauron was an amalgamation of Tú and Tevildo.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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#s 1040-1031

Post by Dân o Nandor on Anduin »

As previously indicated, unless otherwise stated, all 3pt characters (continuing to #1003) received 2pts for 1 index line in UT/HoMe, and 1pt for a listing in Wikipedia of less than 30 words.

#1040 Mrs. Maggot
Called a “queen among farmer’s wives” by Frodo, presumably for her gift of mushrooms, along with graciously serving the hungry and thirsty hobbits; she had one line in LotR: “You be careful of yourself, Maggot! Don’t go arguing with any foreigners, and come straight back!” She’d rank higher if The Adventures of Tom Bombadil had an index, in which she did more serving and laughing and was illustrated by Pauline Baynes. She also had further lines in the LotR drafts (HoMe 6), and receives a 3rd point for her appearance in LotR’s index.

#1039 Beril of the 1st house, younger sister of Andreth
From the family-tree of the House of Bëor, she appears as the youngest child of Boromir 4th Lord of the 1st House of the Edain. She was born in 365 of the First Age of the Sun.

#1038 Hiril of the Haladin, daughter of Halmir
4th child and only daughter of the 3rd Chieftain of the 2nd House of the Edain; she exists solely in the ‘Wanderings of Húrin’, referenced primarily as being Húrin’s aunt, and grandmother to Hunthor and Manthor. The 2 brothers are said to be of “great spirit” due to being descendants of Hiril, unlike their mutual (the brothers’, & Húrin’s) cousin Hardang, the conspicuous villain of this tale of the fall of Brethil.

#1037 Enthor, younger brother of Hunthor & Manthor
The status of Enthor, ‘the captain of the guards near Brithiach’, is admittedly another dubious one. He doesn’t appear in the final tree of the 2nd House, and Tolkien at times used his name for Hiril’s husband (see above), as well as substituting him with a “chief henchman, called Ebor” who appears on his own in the main text in the end. CT writes that it is suggested that “my father intended to cut out the words ‘younger brother of Hunthor and Manthor’, but omitted to do so”. Thus he makes the cut at #1037.

#1036 Ausir, boy of Mar Vanwa Tyaliéva
He was a boy - presumably one of the children who took the Path of Dreams, Olórë Mallë, to the Cottage of Lost Play - who listened in and commented on the ‘Tale of Tinúviel’, as told to Eriol by Vëannë, an elf-child of Tol Eressëa. Of note, Ausir proclaimed: “knowest thou not, O Eriol, that that ancient mariner beside the lonely sea was none other than Ulmo’s self, who appeareth not seldom thus to those voyagers whom he loves”.

#1035 Arachon, brother-in-law of Barahir
He, of unknown origins, married Bregil, the eldest child of Bregor 5th Lord of the 1st House of the Edain, and older sister of Barahir; thus Arachon was uncle to Beren Erchamion. Beldis, his 2nd child, married Handir the 5th Chieftain of the Haladin; his first child is next...

#1034 Brandir, uncle of Brandir the Lame
He is the 1st child of the 1st child of the 5th Lord of the 1st House of the Edain; so if his mother was male, he would have been the 7th Lord of the House of Bëor instead of Barahir. As it was, his sister married Handir the 5th Chieftain of the 2nd House, thus Brandir’s only discernible contribution was giving his name to his nephew, the 6th Chieftain of the Haladin.

#1033 Nuneth, mother of Erendis
She who bore Erendis makes her most significant statement in an entire paragraph in the tale of ‘The Mariner’s Wife’: “All or nothing, Erendis. So you were as a child. But you love this man, and he is a great man, not to speak of his rank; and you will not cast out your love from your heart so easily, nor without great hurt to yourself. A woman must share her husband’s love with his work and the fire of his spirit, or make him a thing not loveable. But I doubt that you will ever understand such counsel. Yet I am grieved, for it is full time that you were wed; and having borne a fair child I had hoped to see fair grandchildren; nor if they were cradled in the King’s house would that displease me”. Of course she did witness the birth of a fair grandchild, “most beautiful, as old tales tell, that ever was born in the line of Elros, save Ar-Zimraphel, the last”, who will appear much much later.

#1032 Aglahad the 19th Prince of Dol Amroth
The great-grandfather of Prince Imrahil appears as the least of the line of named Princes, having not appeared on the family-tree bearing the name of his son, Angelimir (see HoMe 12). Aglahad lived to be 105 years.

#1031 Gilmith sister of Galador 1st Prince of Dol Amroth
She appears only in the note on the tree of ‘Dol Amroth from the time of Angelimir the twentieth prince’. She was the princess, daughter of Imrazộr the Númenórean and the Elven-lady Mithrellas, and was the younger sister of Galador the 1st Ruling Prince.


Closing in on the top 1000, but before getting there, we wrap up the remaining 3pt characters, a quarter of which are Elves – Sindar, Avari, and even some Unbegotten!
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Post by Dân o Nandor on Anduin »

All right, answering some overdue queries:

Okay, sador: the concepts of Avari and Eldar were not fleshed out yet when Narthseg existed; I have no recollection, and highly doubt, that Rateliff mentioned any connection between Avari & Hobbits; nor do I see any connection between Nan the Giant to either Nan ‘valley’, or Nan ‘mother’ (in the Etymologies), but linguists may have more to say; Ithilbor is indeed a product solely of the ‘Narn’; no, Tréowine and Jeremy weren't combined on this list, nor were any other of the ‘time-travel’ parallel characters, as there’s an element of displacement/separation with these that does not exist with, say Thû/Sauron or Trotter/Aragorn; I see no indication that Ilkorins were in any way forerunners of the sons of Bor; Mablung 'the heavy-handed' indeed appeared in the earliest incarnation of the tale of Túrin; there are 3, not just 2, other Firiels, all appearing later, though my own theory is that Sam’s granddaughter (whom you failed to mention) is one-&-the-same as the Firiel of ‘The Last Ship’; whether Borlas is the grandson of Beregond, or more removed, depends on the accepted timeline; Foster’s ‘Guide’, as most other sources, is indeed scored by # of text lines; and finally, ‘healers’, as most selected occupations here, are generally catch-all categories, which include nurses as ‘caretakers’.

And, Faithful One, if Ingwë and Elwë had no parents, how did they have siblings? Hmmm? :)
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Re: #s 1050-1041

Post by sador »

Dân o Nandor on Anduin wrote:Sorry, summer delays
Well, same here.
And so glad to see you there sador, I'll answer all your queries when I can.
Thank you!
#1050 Mr. Mugwort
Mr. Mugwort, a hobbit of Bree and apparent frequenter of The Prancing Pony, saw Frodo disappear, “or leastways I didn’t see him, if you take my meaning”. Several Mugworts, “an odd name to [the Fellowship’s] way of thinking” were present in the Pony in the LotR drafts. He gets 1pt for being indexed in LotR, as well as 2pts for being indexed in HoMe 6.
:shock:
Isn't he indexed by Foster?
#1049 Hiril sister of Beren Erchamion
A controversial entry, no doubt, this daughter of Barahir and Emeldir appears in changes made to ‘Bëor table II’, the final tree we’re given on the genealogy of the 1st House of the Edain composed at the end of the sub-section ‘Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain’...
Is anything else known of her?
#1048 Maidros father of Finwë
Back in ‘Lost Tales I’, before Fëanor’s son was in existence, his grandfather was named simply as the father of his father.
As father of Finwë king of the Noldor, or of Finn Fëanor’s father? If I remember correctly, in The Book of Lost Tales Fëanor wasn't of royal blood.
#1045 Sagroth
“Trust you to find trouble, as ever, Sagroth!” said Forhend, another man of Brethil.
And truly so.
#1044 Gorgol the Butcher
We’re overdue for another orc, and who better than this victim of Beren. “Of hunters hunted, slayers slain / they sang, of Gorgol the Butcher hewn, / of ambush in Ladros, fire in Drun, / of thirty in one battle dead, / of wolves that yelped like curs and fled, / yea, Sauron himself with wound in hand.” CT says of line 519 of the 'Lay of Leithian': “Gorgol the Butcher. He is named nowhere else”. Pity!
Forgot that one. Nice!
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Re: #s 1040-1031

Post by sador »

Dân o Nandor on Anduin wrote:#1040 Mrs. Maggot
Called a “queen among farmer’s wives” by Frodo, presumably for her gift of mushrooms, along with graciously serving the hungry and thirsty hobbits; she had one line in LotR: “You be careful of yourself, Maggot! Don’t go arguing with any foreigners, and come straight back!” She’d rank higher if The Adventures of Tom Bombadil had an index, in which she did more serving and laughing and was illustrated by Pauline Baynes. She also had further lines in the LotR drafts (HoMe 6), and receives a 3rd point for her appearance in LotR’s index.
Yes. I note that Goldberry was not the first lady to be the subject of Frodo's gallantry after becoming an elf-friend.
He should have stayed in the Shire, and become a local Casanova. That way his adventures would be quite different, and more in line with modern tastes... 8)
#1038 Hiril of the Haladin, daughter of Halmir
... The 2 brothers are said to be of “great spirit” due to being descendants of Hiril, unlike their mutual (the brothers’, & Húrin’s) cousin Hardang, the conspicuous villain of this tale of the fall of Brethil.
I'm not sure you're doing Haradang full justice here. But that is the subject of a whole discussion.
#1033 Nuneth, mother of Erendis
I am grieved, for it is full time that you were wed; and having borne a fair child I had hoped to see fair grandchildren; nor if they were cradled in the King’s house would that displease me”.
I find the last comment pretty revealing, don't you? A hint at courtly ambition.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Dân o Nandor on Anduin wrote:And, Faithful One, if Ingwë and Elwë had no parents, how did they have siblings? Hmmm? :)
Um, the same way that various members of the Valar had siblings?

Seriously, the whole concept of the Elves wakening by the shores of Kuivienen doesn't make much logical sense (any more than the story of Adam Eve), so there really is no particular reason why some of them would be siblings, would they?
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Post by Dân o Nandor on Anduin »

Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:Seriously, the whole concept of the Elves wakening by the shores of Kuivienen doesn't make much logical sense (any more than the story of Adam Eve), so there really is no particular reason why some of them would be siblings, would they?
The spouses of the Unbegotten (re: the Cuivienyarna) will appear on the list in a couple weeks, so I gotta pursue this; plus I’m thoroughly confused by the thrust of your above quote. My answer to your closing query would be this, “Exactly, my friend, that’s my point”, if I truly thought you were conceding anything. Are you? On 2nd thought, Maidros, father of Finwë, not a problem?

Or are you actually saying that Elwë & Olwë, and Ingwë & Indis, weren’t really siblings, a-la the Valar? Not a problem with me, I use the same argument rationalizing the Children of the Valar in early writings, and their ‘later’ incarnations. Nor do I have a problem, per se, equating Ingwë, Finwë, & Elwë, with Imin, Tata, & Enel, of the Unbegotten; the latter are essentially numbers, and the former were likely acquired names. The problem arises trying to work in the spouses who awoke beside them. Míriel, Indis, and especially Melian, can’t easily be explained, given Laws & Customs.

Or are you completely rejecting the Cuivienyarna written by JRRT in the ‘60’s, for more ‘canonical’ writings like the ’77 Sil? (Who are you, and where am I?? tORn? ;))

And I don’t get your ‘Adam & Eve’ reference. Are we seriously going to discuss the “logical sense” of Tolkien’s world? You figure out the Lamps, the Trees, the Change of the World, the Last Battle, while discounting the Unbegotten... I'm watching San Fran leading Favre's Vikings 13-10... 8)

The list resumes, for better or worse, in a day or 2... :)
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Post by Dân o Nandor on Anduin »

And sador, no, only the "Mugworts" family-name appeared as an entry in Foster, not "Mr. Mugwort" himself, not even mentioned as an individual within that entry. I didn't apportion any family-name entries towards individual characters, for obvious reasons. Neither Mr. Mugwort, nor Mrs. Maggot, receive their own listings in my pre-Hammond-&-Scull LOTR indices, which is why Foster may have overlooked them. Thanks, as always, for your interest!
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Dân o Nandor on Anduin wrote:
Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:Seriously, the whole concept of the Elves wakening by the shores of Kuivienen doesn't make much logical sense (any more than the story of Adam Eve), so there really is no particular reason why some of them would be siblings, would they?
The spouses of the Unbegotten (re: the Cuivienyarna) will appear on the list in a couple weeks, so I gotta pursue this; plus I’m thoroughly confused by the thrust of your above quote. My answer to your closing query would be this, “Exactly, my friend, that’s my point”, if I truly thought you were conceding anything. Are you? On 2nd thought, Maidros, father of Finwë, not a problem?

Or are you actually saying that Elwë & Olwë, and Ingwë & Indis, weren’t really siblings, a-la the Valar? Not a problem with me, I use the same argument rationalizing the Children of the Valar in early writings, and their ‘later’ incarnations. Nor do I have a problem, per se, equating Ingwë, Finwë, & Elwë, with Imin, Tata, & Enel, of the Unbegotten; the latter are essentially numbers, and the former were likely acquired names. The problem arises trying to work in the spouses who awoke beside them. Míriel, Indis, and especially Melian, can’t easily be explained, given Laws & Customs.

Or are you completely rejecting the Cuivienyarna written by JRRT in the ‘60’s, for more ‘canonical’ writings like the ’77 Sil? (Who are you, and where am I?? tORn? ;))

And I don’t get your ‘Adam & Eve’ reference. Are we seriously going to discuss the “logical sense” of Tolkien’s world? You figure out the Lamps, the Trees, the Change of the World, the Last Battle, while discounting the Unbegotten... I'm watching San Fran leading Favre's Vikings 13-10... 8)

The list resumes, for better or worse, in a day or 2... :)
I'm not actually saying anything, just idling speculating. :D But if pressed, I probably would agree that what I am saying is that perhaps "Elwë & Olwë, and Ingwë & Indis, weren’t really siblings, a-la the Valar." Or maybe they really were siblings, complete with parents.

One thing I can say for sure that I am not saying is "completely rejecting the Cuivienyarna written by JRRT in the ‘60’s, for more ‘canonical’ writings like the ’77 Sil?" I promise! :spin:

Go Niners!
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Post by Dân o Nandor on Anduin »

if pressed, I probably would agree that what I am saying is that perhaps "Elwë & Olwë, and Ingwë & Indis, weren’t really siblings, a-la the Valar." Or maybe they really were siblings, complete with parents. One thing I can say for sure that I am not saying is "completely rejecting the Cuivienyarna written by JRRT in the ‘60’s, for more ‘canonical’ writings like the ’77 Sil?"
Okay, I’ll press you. If Ingwë, Finwë, & Elwë, are to be equated with Imin, Tata, & Enel, that means their spouses and siblings will need to be explained: “Eru had so ordained that each [of the 144 Unbegotten] should lie beside his or her ‘destined spouse’.” No problem with Iminyë, she can still be the spouse of Ingwë for all we know. Equating Tatië with Míriel might work. But Enelyë will need some serious explaining. She either died, or left the presumed-dead Elwë before crossing to Aman herself, or was Melian all along; all remotely possible, but in each case, it all went unrecorded (I’m speaking within the conceit of the tale, of course), as well as unrecognized within the construct of Laws & Customs.

And if Valar-like sibling relationships are accepted, Olwë and Elmo can be explained without problem, I think (even Galadriel’s stated ‘kinship’ with Thingol, I suppose). But then there’s Indis. What happened to her Unbegotten spouse, and why wasn’t this included in L&C, especially since it was Finwë she later married? Of course she might be a niece of Ingwë, not a sister (a lesser possibility, I believe). So, there’s some work to make it all fit, but Elwë/Enelyë/Melian is going to border on fanfic in any case, I’m afraid.

I once thought as you - that Ingwë, Finwë, & Elwë must have been the first to awaken at Cuiviénen – it’s nice, it’s sanitized, it’s regimented. But Michael Martinez convinced me otherwise, a few years back, stating they must be at least 2nd generation, *but more probably 3rd*, extrapolating average elvish birthing ages (letting alone the Cuivienyarna). So, taking his lead, I’ll further posit that Maidros fits in nicely as son of Tata, but certainly won’t push that!

Nonetheless, it’ll take more of a revelation than you’re offering for me to remove Maidros and the 6 Unbegotten on this list. And as it is, I’ve got other marginal Elves to work in before we reach the millennium mark; namely Orodreth’s mother, Eriol’s 2nd wife, and a son of Fingon... :P :)
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Dân o Nandor on Anduin wrote:and a son of Fingon... :P :)
You mean Gil-Galad? :nana:
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#s 1030-1021

Post by Dân o Nandor on Anduin »

Again, unless otherwise stated, all characters earned 2pts for an index line in UT/HoMe, and 1pt for a mention (less than 30 words) in Wikipedia.

#1030 Elboron, son of Faramir & Éowyn
He only appears on the ‘Princes of Dol Amroth’ family-tree (HoMe12), being the great-grandson of Adrahil the 21st Prince, through Finduilas mother of Faramir. “Second Prince [of Ithilien]” is how he’s referenced, but no dates are given. CT comments on him in the last paragraph of ‘The House of Dol Amroth’ section: “Faramir’s son Elboron likewise only appears in this genealogy. In him an old name reappears. Elboron and Elbereth were the orginal names of the young sons of Dior... Later the sons of Elrond were named Elboron and Elbereth, before they became Elladan and Elrohir”. 3rd time was a charm for the name of Elboron.

#1029 Belegor, 2nd son of Lord Boron of the 1st House
He’s the great-grandson of Bëor the Old and uncle of Andreth. Anything more will require fanfic...

#1028 Rohald
It’s been a while since an animal’s appeared here, so here’s Gandalf’s white horse in The Hobbit, receiving all 3pts from Rateliff’s History of the Hobbit index. Tolkien’s notes in the drafts say this: “the white horse Róhald belonged to Rivendell, & had been lent by Elrond to Gandalf”. To which Rateliff responds, “This final point should perhaps be taken to indicate that Rohald would be left behind in Rivendell when Thorin & Company set out again to attempt the mountain-passes. Certainly it is disquieting enough to think of all the ponies being eaten by the goblins in Chapter IV, now that they have been given a sort of corporate personality and even pseudo dialogue (cf. Page 795), much less an elven horse such as Rohald”. Indeed.

#1027 Eldalótë, mother of Orodreth
She appears in the ‘Names of Finwë’s descendants’, an excursus appended to the ‘60’s ‘Shibboleth of Fëanor’ (HoMe12). She’s the wife of Angrod and mother of Orodreth, according to the later (and arguably definitive) genealogy, and it states “Eđellos translated Eldalótë according to sense: ‘Elven-flower’”. Since the former name is Sindarin, I’ve classified her as such due to this phrasing.

#1026 Gildis, wife of Hador Lórindol
She only appears on the ‘Folk of Marach’ family-tree (HoMe11), “later & usually called the ‘House of Hador’”. Thus, she’s essentially the matriarch of the 3rd House of the Edain, and grandmother of Húrin and Huor. Too bad we don’t know more about her.

#1025 Bregil, 1st child of Lord Bregor
Mentioned in her son’s entry (#1034), that if she was male she would have been 6th Lord of the 1st House, and Brandir the Lame may have been the rightful heir of both of the first 2 Houses. As it turned out, Barahir and son Beren became 7th and 8th Lords of the 1st House. Chalk one up for male primogeniture, at least in this case.

#1024 Agathor, husband of Meleth
“Meleth’s husband is apparently named Agathor”, is how Agathor, of unknown origin, enters the cosmology, in CT’s notes following the last tree given for the 2nd House of the Edain. Thus he’s the father of Hunthor, Manthor, and Enthor, and husband of the next entry...

#1023 Meleth of the Haladin
She appears on the same last family-tree of the 2nd House, but also appears, without being named, in ‘The Wanderings of Húrin’ when her son Manthor, acting legal counsel for Húrin, was answering to Avranc, the prosecutor: “It is so indeed. The mother of Húrin was Hareth daughter of Halmir, once Halad of Brethil, and Hiril her sister was the mother of my mother. But this lineage does not prove me a liar. More, if Húrin of Dorlómin be akin to me, he is kinsman of all the House of Haleth. Yea, and of all this Folk. Yet he is treated as an outlaw, a robber, a wild man without honour!”

#1022 Naimi, 2nd wife of Eriol
Back to the earliest ‘cycle’, Eriol the Angle was gripped by sea-longing after the death of Cwén, his 1st wife (and mother of Hengest & Horsa), and sought se uncúpa holm, ‘the unknown island’. There, “in Tol Eressëa he wedded, being made young by limpë (here also called by the Old English word líÞ), Naimi (Éadgifu), niece of Vairë, and they had a son named Heorrenda”. Along with 2pts for BoLT2, her 3rd point comes from being indexed in Garth.

#1021 Déor, father of Ælfwine of England
Likewise, the father of the mariner Ælfwine of England, earns 2pts for BoLT2 as well as a pt for being indexed by Drout. He was a minstrel, and “wedded to wife a maiden from the West, from Lionesse as some have named it since, or Evadrien ‘Coast of Iron’ as the Elves still say”. She died in a Viking raid, and “Déor fell before the walls even as he sang a song of ancient valour for the raising of men’s hearts. That was a desperate sally, and the son of Déor was Ælfwine, and he was a boy left fatherless”.

Next, a couple Princes of Dol Amroth, and a couple Avari, along with the usual fare of Edain...
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Pretty non-controversial set, but interesting as always.

I guess Eldalótë could be controversial, although I notice that you don't specifically describe her as "grandmother of Gil-Galad". ;)
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Re: #s 1030-1021

Post by sador »

Dân o Nandor on Anduin wrote:#1030 Elboron, son of Faramir & Éowyn
As a matter of fact, that should have been my screenname.
I ran across it in Wikipedia sometime long ago, just around the time I've found the TORn message boards. I intended to use it as a screenname (if it wasn't taken yet), and decided to lurk a bit before logging in.
The very first day I started reading I felt there was an important point in some discussion nobody mentioned. I signed up, realised that I had clean forgotten the intended username, impatiently picked up another, wrote a long post - and instead of "submit" pressed "Enter"!
So the post was lost (I wrote a shorter one with about the same idea the day after), but I was sador ever since. :oops:

(I suppose the story hows how apt my username is, doesn't it?)

#1028 Rohald
Tolkien’s notes in the drafts say this: “the white horse Róhald belonged to Rivendell, & had been lent by Elrond to Gandalf”.
Is the horse Beorn lent him also named?

#1025 Bregil, 1st child of Lord Bregor
As it turned out, Barahir and son Beren became 7th and 8th Lords of the 1st House. Chalk one up for male primogeniture, at least in this case.
Do you think remaining in Dorthonion after the Bragollach was such a great idea?

#1022 Naimi, 2nd wife of Eriol
Along with 2pts for BoLT2, her 3rd point comes from being indexed in Garth.
Garth? In what context?

#1021 Déor, father of Ælfwine of England
And later the name of a king of Rohan. What does the name mean? How does it connect to both?
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Re: #s 1030-1021

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

sador wrote:
#1022 Naimi, 2nd wife of Eriol
Along with 2pts for BoLT2, her 3rd point comes from being indexed in Garth.
Garth? In what context?
I'll answer this, since I had the same question, and I decided to check. Naimi is in fact indexed in Tolkien and the Great War. Garth talks quite a bit about "The Cottage of Lost Play"; indeed his book is perhaps the best source of information about Tolkien's earliest writings that I know of (in fact, it is one of the best books about Tolkien that I know of, period). Here is the passage in which Naimi is mentioned:
'The Cottage of Lost Play', complete by early February 1917, makes plain that Tolkien already in had in mind the idea that Eriol would hear the Lost Tales in Kortirion. In one note, the tales were to be written down by Heorrenda of Haegwudu (Great Haywood), Eriol's son by the elf-maid Naimi, in a 'Golden Book': the Qenya and Gnomish lexicons give translations for this title. But it was lose to be known as i-band a-gwentin laithrai, the 'Book of Lost Tales'.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Post by Dân o Nandor on Anduin »

All of these next characters earned 2pts for an index line in UT/HoMe, and 1pt for a mention (less than 30 words) in Wikipedia.

#1020 & #1019 Elphir & Alphros, the 23rd & 24th Princes of Dol Amroth
They’re the son & grandson of Prince Imrahil, born in 2987 & 3017 TA respectively, and living to be 100 & 98 yrs old according to the Dol Amroth Princely-tree & table (HoMe12). This would make the death-date of Prince Alphros (3117 TA cont.> 94 FO) one of the latest recorded dates in the cosmology. (Note: CT explains the given 4th Age date of 95 is an error, as it assumes the Age began in 3021, not 3022).

#1018 Hunleth daughter of Hundar of the Haladin
She appears only on the family-tree ‘The Haladin or the folk of Haleth’ and has no listed husband or children. Born in 443 FA, she’s the niece of Haldir, the 4th chieftain of the Haladin, and the aunt of Hardang, the 7th chieftain. CT says, concerning alterations made to this tree: “Hundar’s daughter Hunleth was an addition, though probably of the time of the making of the table”.

#1017 & #1016 Morwë & Nurwë
They appear, post-LotR, in the ‘Annals of Aman’ (HoMe10) under the Valarian Year of the Trees 1105, the year the Great March began: “But the kindreds of Morwë and Nurwë were unwilling and refused the summons, preferring the starlight and the wide spaces of the Earth to the rumour of the Trees... These are the Avari, the Unwilling, and they were sundered in that time from the Eldar, and met never again until many ages were past”. Conjecture (& logic) may suggest, according to sub-section C, ‘The Clan-names’, of ‘Quendi & Eldar’ (HoMe11), that Morwë led the Tatyar-Avari apart from the Tatyar-Eldar (or Finwë’s Noldor), and Nurwë led the Nelyar-Avari apart from the Nelyar-Eldar (or Elwë’s Lindar>Teleri), since the Minyar (or Ingwë’s Vanyar) imparted no Avari in the end.

#1015 Baranor 2nd son of Bëor the Young
Born in 317 FA, he’s the father of Bereg, one of the leaders of dissension in Estolad along with Amlach grandson of Marach. Baranor’s older brother Boron became 3rd Lord of the 1st House.

#1014 Belen 2nd son of Bëor the Old
2nd son of the Young, is followed by 2nd son of the Old: born in 292 FA, Belen is the great-great-grandfather of Emeldir the Manhearted, mother of Beren Erchamion. His son and grandson appear next...

#1013 Beldir son of Belen
Born in 316 FA, he’s the only listed son of Belen, and the father of Belemir, listed next...

#1012 Belemir son of Beldir
Marrying into the 3rd House, he’s the husband of Adanel the 1st child of Malach Aradan, and it’s said (though subsequently crossed out) that “he joined the people of Aradan”. Nonetheless, their 5th child was Beren, whose 3rd child was Emeldir, whose husband was Barahir 7th Lord of the 1st House and father of Beren Erchamion.

#1011 Gimilzagar, Prince of Númenor, 2nd son of Tar-Calmacil
Gimilzagar is the forebear of Inzilbêth mother of Tar-Palantir and “secretly of the Faithful”. He only appears in a footnote in ‘The Line of Elros’ chapter in UT, with this clarification by CT - “In two genealogical tables her [Inzilbêth’s] father is shown as Gimilzagar, the second son (born in 2630) of Tar-Calmacil, but this is clearly impossible: Inzilbêth must have been descended from Tar-Calmacil at more removes”. Granddaughter or great-granddaughter she possibly is - conjecture will be required here as well...

Next, 4 sons & daughters, 3 Unbegotten, 2 of the Haladin, and the 7th Nazgûl on the List...
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Just one question

Post by sador »

Dân o Nandor on Anduin wrote:u]#1017 & #1016[/u] Morwë & Nurwë
Conjecture (& logic) may suggest, according to sub-section C, ‘The Clan-names’, of ‘Quendi & Eldar’ (HoMe11), that Morwë led the Tatyar-Avari apart from the Tatyar-Eldar (or Finwë’s Noldor)...
Adding your conjecture to the stem mor- in Morwe's name - do you think this gives us a glimpse on the origins of Eöl?
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Post by Dân o Nandor on Anduin »

Once again, unless otherwise stated, the following received 2pts from HoMe/UT and 1pt from Wikipedia...

#1010 Fíriel, daughter of Elanor Gamgee and Fastred of Greenholm
She’s the first of Sam’s descendants to appear, and only exists in a footnote in the Preface to The Adventures of Tom Bombadil. Wikipedia gives her last name as Fairbairn, being that of her brother Elfstan progenitor of the Fairbairns of the Towers. Tolkien’s footnote in question leaves it ambiguous if the Fíriel of the Bombadil poem ‘The Last Ship’ refers to the Princess of Gondor of earlier that Age, but he makes it clear that both the poem and the name must ultimately derive from Gondor. However, not knowing the supposed date of this collection of poems, in my mind this doesn’t preclude the possibility that the poem itself refers to Sam’s granddaughter visiting Gondor as a guest of Elessar late in her life, and witnessing a ‘Last Ship’ depart with 3 ‘Elven-kings’ (Celeborn, Thranduil & Círdan?). Nonetheless, all 3 Fíriels appear on this list. (2 of her pts come from Foster’s Guide and 1 from Wikipedia).

#1009 Ebor, liege of Manthor
In ‘The Wanderings of Húrin’ he was the chief henchman of Manthor and a captain of the guards the North-march of Brethil, who captured and blindfolded Asgon of Dorlómin and Húrin’s former companions, leading them to Hardang of Brethil. It was then Ebor also who, feeling ill-pleased of their treatment by the Lord, gave them back their weapons and “more courteously” sent them on their way, for “so would my lord Manthor do, at the least”.

#1008 Forhend, a guard of Brethil
Later in the same tale, he was one of Manthor’s men who first found Húrin slumbering after Morwen’s passing. Forhend suggested he simply be thrust out of Brethil’s borders, to the alarm of Avranc son of Dorlas who wanted him slain. Manthor overruled them both, leading Húrin to the house of Lord Hardang; Forhend being the only other of the company that was brought along with the two of them.

#1007 Morwen, sister of Orodreth the 16th Ruling Steward of Gondor
She’s mentioned within the line of ‘The Ruling Stewards of Gondor’ [B-text] in the chapter ‘The Heirs of Elendil’ of HoMe12, significant only because Orodreth’s son, Ecthelion I, “had no children and was followed by Egalmoth, grandson of Morwen sister of Orodreth”. She’s noted later by CT as having originally been written as the sister of Belecthor I, the 15th Ruling Steward; clearly a mistake due to “the rapidity with which my father sketched out the dates and relations of the later Stewards in this earliest [A] text”.

#1006, #1005 & #1004 Enelyë, Tatië & Iminyë
They’re the spouses of Imin, Tata & Enel, the first 3 Elves to awaken according to the ‘Cuivienenyarna’: “Imin, Tata and Enel awoke before their spouses, and the first thing that they saw was the stars, for they woke in the early twilight before dawn. And the next thing they saw was their destined spouses lying asleep on the green sward beside them... And being impatient they could not wait but woke up their spouses. Thus, the Eldar say, the first thing that each elf-woman saw was her spouse, and her love for him was her first love; and her love and reverence for the wonders of Arda came later. Now after a time, when they had dwelt together a little, and had devised many words, Imin and Iminyë, Tata and Tatië, Enel and Enelyë walked together, and left the green dell of their waking, and they came soon to another larger dell and found there six pairs of Quendi, and the stars were again shining in the morrow-dim and the elf-men were just waking”. Iminyë then has an extra mention when she and Imin set out with their first 12 companions.

#1003 Winged Messenger of the Nazgûl
His only 3pts come from Foster’s Guide, simply being cited as “One of the Nazgûl, whose steed was shot by Legolas over Anduin during the Quest”; even though he’s also indirectly indexed in LotR (in parentheses under ‘Nazgûl’). Thus, he could either be the last 3pt character to appear, or the first 4pt one, depending; but he’s definitely the 8th of the Undead Men to appear, with 4 more to go well on down the line.

#1002 Lúsion son of Telimektar son of Tulkas
A controversial 4-pointer, before we enter the top 1000. His points come from being indexed twice in HoMe2, under his names ‘Lúsion’ and ‘Lúthien (2)’, with one line each. Lúthien (1) is Ælfwine of England, or rather a name given to him by the Elves of Eressëa. Lúthien (3) is England itself, or Luthany. Lastly, Lúthien (4) was given to Tinúviel. CT says, “I have been unable to find any trace of the process whereby the name Lúthien came to be so differently applied afterwards... a note of this period explains the name quite otherwise: ‘Lúthien or Lúsion was son of Telumaith (Telumektar)...”. And so the only known 'grandchild' of the Valar, if one can stomach such a thing.

#1001 Old Professor Rashbold, Anglo-Saxon scholar of Pembroke College
Described as “a grumpy old bear” by Arundel Lowdham of the Notion Club, this 2nd 4-pointer is quite likely the father of the 2nd-last 4-pointer [see #940]. At this, CT notes the “hidden puns and jokes in the list of members”.

Since my last post (sorry for the month hiatus), in real time of the ‘Great Years’, Gandalf escaped from Orthanc; Black Riders reached the Shire; Frodo left the Shire, met Bombadil, visited Bree & Weathertop; and Glorfindel just left Rivendell. Also, following the 1200 questions of Andrew Murray’s Tolkien Quiz Book, we’re now at #7 of section 17: “Who built the West-gate of Khazâd-dûm?” (hint, he appears at #487 on this list).

Next, we enter the 2nd sixth of the countdown...
Last edited by Dân o Nandor on Anduin on Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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