Toyota recalls

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halplm
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Toyota recalls

Post by halplm »

link

I had been wondering about this. It seems terribly convenient that so much attention has been focused on Toyota and the recalls it's having to make. Other cars have been recalled recently, but there was no outcry. No massive campaign against those companies.

The last paragraph of the linked article sums it up nicely.
The government, in this case backed by the union saturation of GM, has a clear conflict of interest in owning companies that are in direct competition with Toyota. The problems have been determined, the solutions are in process. Sec. LaHood and the union-supported Democrat heads of the committees holding hearings on this matter should step back and allow the private sector to function without biased interference.
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Post by vison »

There is a big article in Maclean's magazine this week about Toyata. I will report back when I've had time to read it.

It looks, however, that this is just one more thing about the Japanese economy, etc., that has been a big deceit for many years.
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Post by Lidless »

A Toyota
Race car

Both palindromes.

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Post by Frelga »

A Business Week article spoke at length about Toyota's mismanagement of the recall, the attempts for cover up and denial, and the systemic problems that are creeping into Japanese economy. I don't know if it's online, it's worth checking out.

I think part of is sheer shock that Toyota's are not perfect. People expect American cars to have problems. :P
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Post by River »

I think it's a bit of a stretch. Especially this bit:
Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, told owners of a recalled Toyota to “stop driving it” and take it to a dealer to get it fixed. As a appointee of President Obama, who supported the government takeover of GM, LaHood’s comments should be viewed as a violation of the government’s own “non-compete” commitment. In publically condemning Toyota, which is now a competitor of a government owned corporation, LaHood is using his position to drive down the market share of Toyota and advance the interests of GM.
Really, isn't the suggestion to "Stop driving it and get it fixed" just common sense when dealing with a flawed car? For pete's sake, that's what you always do when your car's having problems. Mechanical issues have an unfortunate tendency to not go away when ignored...though with Toyotas and Hondas and Subarus it often seems that way because those little Japanese cars just don't quit. And that's what I think is at the root of the all the wild press about the recalls (and Congress calls hearings on everything that gets a lot of press and has a link to public health and safety because when a safety issue goes nation-wide voters expect them to Do Something). Toyotas are popular in the US because they're fuel efficient and they have a reputation for not breaking...until now. On the flip side, GM's cars have a reputation for being gas-guzzling crap (I will forever mourn the slow, excruciating death of Saab) so there's no sensation when GM's cars need a recall, and that's pretty much true for Chrysler and Ford as well.

Audis have also been recalled a few times in the past six years. I think the only people who heard about that, though, were Audi owners (I only heard about it because S drives one) but, then again, Audis don't have the sort of market share Toyotas do. A massive Audi recall isn't going to affect half your neighborhood like a Toyota recall will.
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Post by Inanna »

I think it's quite a stretch.

My colleague's research has shown that after product recalls, firms that have higher brand equity hurt more than firms with lower brand equity. The theory is simple - you set expectations, you have to meet them. When you don't - boom, bang, splat. And Toyota's brand equity has been much higher than GM's.

Frelga, I read that article too and was shocked.

I agree, River, given that the braking problems have led to fatal crashes, "stop driving it and getting it fixed" is a very sensible suggestion!
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Post by Frelga »

Oh, but surely a site named biggovernment.com is perfectly fair and balanced in its reporting. :P
Last edited by Frelga on Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Ellienor »

It is funny. There is a real "hothouse" going on with Republicans and those who hate government. I was out to lunch today with my coworkers and the right-wing contingent were complaining about how the government was making a big stink about Toyota because the government now owns GM. :)

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Post by Griffon64 »

I stopped reading stuff about Toyota the moment a politician opened his mouth about it. Seems you can't get just plain old information about anything anymore. Everything gets gobbled up to be a political weapon.

We drive a couple Toyotas, one of which are under recall. We still drive that one. It has way lower mileage than the mileage that these problems are reported to start to crop up at, for one thing, and this seems to be a wear and tear thing. Another reason I drive it without even thinking about the recall is that most of its miles are long distance miles, so the accelerator probably has low wear on it even for the miles - assuming the kind of wear is caused by the number of times the pedal travels up and down, as opposed to it being held steady either by a person cruising or by being in cruise control.

Which brings me to my one point: why on earth do I have to suffer through politicizing, hype, accusations, more politicizing, etc etc, when what I really want to know is some plain facts so I can make an informed decision? I don't need to be told what to do by a politician - and if I am to be told what to do, I'd rather hear it directly from the dealer or Toyota. Failing that, give me the facts, I've got a brain around here somewhere I can use to make decision :P

I did refresh on what to do when an accelerator pedal does get stuck. I've had the mat-accelerator thing ( which isn't the only cause for this problem Toyota's having ) happen to me once, and I've been in a car once when that happened while traveling at freeway speeds. The latter happened first. I was maybe 11 years old and we were going on vacation in our VW when my dad pressed the accelerator to pass another car, pulled back into his lane and - the car didn't stop accelerating. Pushing the pedal down hard to accelerate had lodged it behind the car's heavy rubber mat that must have been gradually sliding forward. I remember the car revving loudly and muscling forward, and my father figuring out after a second what had happened. He plucked the mat away, and after everybody got over the worst of the scare he told us, very seriously, what had happened, and what to do in such a situation. ( Though we were years away from South Africa's drive-at-18 age! ) It made an impression on me. Years later, I got my old car's mat over the accelerator somehow. It was a brute of a 4-speed Ford and it jumped forward eagerly when that happened. But I knew what to do - thankfully. I've been told what to do and I remembered. You panic when this crap happens, and if you don't know what to do, you could get in trouble.



That brings me to my final point - if politicians really cared about people instead of politics, every last one of them will have only one response: "If this happens, here is what you need to do to avoid an accident." Let the solution be the only thing in people's minds when they think "Toyota accelerator stuck".
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Post by River »

So, er, what do you do if the accelerator sticks? This is a serious question BTW. We covered it in driver's ed but I haven't thought of it since.
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Post by Teremia »

On NPR they said: brake steadily (not pumping) and pop the car into neutral.
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Post by Inanna »

There is a problem with the "brake steadily" solution - according to NPR. As Teremia said, this was what they advised - but they were not sure it would work. I think they also mentioned pulling the handbrake, taking out the keys etc., but once again, not sure it would work.

From NPR: The accelerator does not a physical connection to the engine but an electronic one. Toyota took that tech from German Luxury cars and started applying it in around 2000-2001 in its cars. However, the German cars also have another bit of technology - a brake over-ride. Effectively, if you press the brake, it overrides the electronic signal of the "pressed" accelerator. Toyota did not adopt this particular piece. Which is why pressing the brake does not stop the car.

So it is not simply the mat problem - which is more easily fixable than this one. However, I thought Toyota had figured out a stop-gap solution: a metal "shim" that could be inserted in the accelerator pedal joint? Griff, do you know if that would work for your car - if you have more than the mat problem.
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Post by Frelga »

Mahima wrote:From NPR: The accelerator does not a physical connection to the engine but an electronic one. Toyota took that tech from German Luxury cars and started applying it in around 2000-2001 in its cars. However, the German cars also have another bit of technology - a brake over-ride. Effectively, if you press the brake, it overrides the electronic signal of the "pressed" accelerator. Toyota did not adopt this particular piece. Which is why pressing the brake does not stop the car.
Now that, to me, seems like a glaring engineering oversight. If true, Toyota deserves every bit of trouble they get into.

Even from the politicians.
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Post by Griffon64 »

If Toyota did omit a piece of necessary technology ( and the mechanical override would certainly seem to qualify, to my layman's mind ) then they do deserve every bit of trouble they get into.

If their take on the design somehow makes the override unnecessary, then I'd like to know about that, too.

Toyota doesn't seem to be telling just yet, though.

And keep in mind that other vehicles, like some Chevvies, do not have the override technology either. So it may not be necessary, but I don't know for sure.

( OT - I am not quite comfortable with the modern "fly-by-wire" kind of technology, for just such reasons as this. I'm a programmer, I'm just never going to trust that an electronic solution can be as safe as a good ol' mechanical one :blackeye: I want a key to put in the ignition, not a button to push. And so on. )

Mahima - yes, the stop-gap solution would work for our car, as far as I could gather. As I recall, it is about the mechanism getting fatigued, and the shim strengthens it. I'm hoping for a permanent solution, though :P

The stuck mat problem is almost trivial next to a real stuck accelerator. You yank out the mat and you're saved.

If the accelerator is stuck, the first thing you want is to stop the engine from accelerating your car any more, so: put it in neutral. Don't worry about the engine revving its way through the hood if your car is reasonably modern - like these recalled Toyotas - since the engine will cut out before it overrevs itself enough to cause damage. ( Providing that that system doesn't fail :blackeye: ) Even if it is an older car, a fried engine beats dying.

Once you did that, apply the brakes - steadily. Depending on your speed, this will stop you safely. If you ever tried to pull away while holding in the brake you'd realize the engine can't overcome car brakes at lower speeds, so if your car is in neutral, the brakes should allow you to stop safely, if you have some room in which to do it. If you've been sticking to your following distances, you should ;)

So to summarize, do two things: first put the car in neutral, then apply brakes.

Oh yeah: DON'T turn off the engine - you loose power steering and assisted braking, and if you aren't very strong, this will make your car almost uncontrollable. I've had the engine cut out and die driving an old car at about 15 miles an hour, coasted into a parking lot and managed to neatly park the dead car - one spot over from where I aimed, it was that hard to steer. And I had to rise up out of my seat to press the brake, even at that low speed, enough to stop the car. So:

Keep engine on -> shift to neutral -> apply brakes.

I've never experienced a stuck accelerator - I wish there was a test track I could go to to experience this under controlled, safe conditions, and learn how to handle it. I don't want to try it in my own car on a public road :blackeye:
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Post by Frelga »

( OT - I am not quite comfortable with the modern "fly-by-wire" kind of technology, for just such reasons as this. I'm a programmer, I'm just never going to trust that an electronic solution can be as safe as a good ol' mechanical one :blackeye: I want a key to put in the ignition, not a button to push. And so on. )
:agree:
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Post by River »

Griffon64 wrote:If Toyota did omit a piece of necessary technology ( and the mechanical override would certainly seem to qualify, to my layman's mind ) then they do deserve every bit of trouble they get into.

If their take on the design somehow makes the override unnecessary, then I'd like to know about that, too.

Toyota doesn't seem to be telling just yet, though.
I'd lay money on it being an engineering error as embarrassing as the one you and Frelga are postulating and that's why they're shuffling their feet so much.

Korea has a bit of a love-hate relationship with Japan. This is personified in my labmate, who was torn between the thrill of seeing Toyota with mud all over its face and the fear his Toyota might kill him. He badgered his dealer into giving him an appointment even though the dealer said his car was probably safe. And, as it turns out, his car is safe, but he's sleeping better for the inspection and his thrills are no longer spiked with fear.
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Post by Inanna »

If Toyota did omit a piece of necessary technology ( and the mechanical override would certainly seem to qualify, to my layman's mind ) then they do deserve every bit of trouble they get into.

If their take on the design somehow makes the override unnecessary, then I'd like to know about that, too.

Toyota doesn't seem to be telling just yet, though.
Toyota has been claiming that the electronics are not the problem. However Automotive news announced that Toyota has decided to implement the over-ride mechanism. link
Toyota will install a brake override system on the involved Camry, Avalon, and Lexus ES 350, IS 350 and IS 250 models “as an extra measure of confidence.” The system will shut off engine power if drivers press the accelerator pedal and brake pedal simultaneously.
However, Toyota also said, earlier, that this problem exists in the cars in which the system came from a US parts supplier - CTS based in Indiana, and not their older, Japanese parts supplier (Suits in US and Canada are against CTS and Toyota). Which seems to point to the fact that it can't be the override problem - because then it should exist in parts from both the suppliers.

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Post by vison »

"Toyota will install a brake override system on the involved Camry, Avalon, and Lexus ES 350, IS 350 and IS 250 models “as an extra measure of confidence.” The system will shut off engine power if drivers press the accelerator pedal and brake pedal simultaneously."

:scratch:
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Post by Alatar »

This happened here too.

Toyota said "Hey, we've found a little problem with our accelerators and we're recalling cars for a quick fix"

Everyone else said "Erm, ok!"

End of story.
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Post by ToshoftheWuffingas »

And in the UK too. It has been prominent in the news.
So mark it down as another anti Obama opportunity that the Republicans have seized without any regard for truth.

The advice I saw was never to take the ignition key out because it will lock the steering wheel. I saw advice to turn the engine off in conflict with Griffy's warning that you do you will lose power steering. :scratch: :help:
Putting it in neutral will disengage the power. I saw advice to change down the gears if possible as that can slow the vehicle.
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