"Gondor calls for aid!" (and other movie changes)

[Alatar]

I think we may have been separated at birth Di...

[Pearly Di]

I was always an apologist for PJ's films, as films, but the HP fandom has totally clinched that.

I enjoy discussing how Tolkien's LotR is superior to PJ's but it has no bearing on the actual success of the films themselves.

I'm grateful I've always been able to separate the two.

Even despite some of my 'WTF' moments!!


And I often remind myself what we could have got instead. *shudder* That's reason enough to be thankful.

[Holbytla]

Of the handful of non-Tolkien geeks that I know who saw the films, everyone of them found the Nazgûl scene confusing.
It has something to do with how Frodo was portrayed while holding the ring. It looks like an offering.

Maybe it needed more of Frodo being dragged against his will kind of thing. Not sure, but I am sure the movies could have lived without that regardless of Tolkien. Maybe it was acting, maybe directing, but the scene leaves something to be desired with regards to its meaning.

[Elentári]

Holbytla wrote:

Maybe it was acting, maybe directing, but the scene leaves something to be desired with regards to its meaning.

Exactly. I'm not complaining from a purist POV, I just think the whole scene didn't come across as intended because it ended up looking as though Frodo was saying "here I am, come and get me!"

[Voronwë the Faithful]

The worst offender, for me, is actually the RotK:EE! It just goes on too bloody long, and I don't think I like any of the additional scenes. Oh, apart from Merry offering his sword to Théoden. Obviously. All the rest -- meh.

My dear Di, I find it difficult to believe that you didn't like any of the following scenes (just off the top of my head):

Éowyn's dream (which was Tolkien's dream, and then Faramir's dream, before her)

Merry's simple courage (where he talks about wishing that he could see Frodo, Sam and Pippin again)

Frodo and Sam seeing the king have a crown again

Sam seeing the star over Mordor and saying that there was light and beauty that no shadow could touch

Frodo and Sam getting caught by the Orcs, and escaping, and their journey in Mordor being otherwise extended

Personally, I also liked the scene with Aragorn and the palantír, though it certainly wasn't canon.

Edit: And how could I forget:

Éomer finding Éowyn on the battlefield, and his deperate concern for her while Aragorn heals her.

The short but sweet scenes between Éowyn and Faramir.

The lovely little interaction between Faramir and Pippin

And most of all,

Faramir telling his father that he wouldn't use the ring to save Minas Tirith.

[Elentári]

V - I only watch the EE - far too much was left out of the the theatrical version for my liking.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Oh and one more: Gandalf reciting Faramir's words about Kings making tombs more splendid than the houses of the living, and childless lords sitting in aged halls, musing on heraldry, or in high, cold towers, asking questions of the stars, along with those wonderful shots of Minas Tirith. That was a great scene.

[Pearly Di]

My dear Di, I find it difficult to believe that you didn't like any of the following scenes (just off the top of my head):

Éowyn's dream (which was Tolkien's dream, and then Faramir's dream, before her)

Yeah, that bit is OK.

Merry's simple courage (where he talks about wishing that he could see Frodo, Sam and Pippin again)

I have no clear memory of that. It's been quite a while since I watched the RotK:EE ...

Frodo and Sam seeing the king have a crown again

Visually, it's perfect. I hate what follows after: Frodo saying "I have a feeling I won't be coming back" or words to that effect, but basically it totally contradicts what PJ set up with Frodo's character at the end of Film One, in which the audience have no doubt that Frodo is 'setting his face like flint' for Mordor and he knows he isn't coming back.

Because he isn't bloody stupid.

Honestly, that whole EE scene is like something shoe-horned in at the last minute and Fran, Philippa and PJ simply hadn't done joined-up thinking on the matter of Frodo's characterisation, because they seem to have forgotten what they wrote for Frodo's character at the end of FotR. Sheesh.

Sam seeing the star over Mordor and saying that there was light and beauty that no shadow could touch

Oh yes, that's beautiful.

Frodo and Sam getting caught by the Orcs, and escaping, and their journey in Mordor being otherwise extended

I don't object to that.

Personally, I also liked the scene with Aragorn and the palantír, though it certainly wasn't canon.

I hate that.

Sauron: "HA HA LULZ YOUR GIRLFRIEND BE DYING FOR REASONS NOT EVER EXPLAINED"
Aragorn: *EEEEK WIBBLE111!!!!*
Me:

Éomer finding Éowyn on the battlefield, and his deperate concern for her while Aragorn heals her.

Ah, yes.

The short but sweet scenes between Éowyn and Faramir.

Ah yes, the video montage. Very nice. Better than nothing, anyway.

I wanna see their wedding. It was filmed.

The lovely little interaction between Faramir and Pippin

I have forgotten that.

Faramir telling his father that he wouldn't use the ring to save Minas Tirith.

Once again, I have forgotten. I'll have to watch it again at some point. Seriously, I really had forgotten. I am not as familiar with RotK:EE as I am with the other EEs (which I prefer).

Oh and one more: Gandalf reciting Faramir's words about Kings making tombs more splendid than the houses of the living, and childless lords sitting in aged halls, musing on heraldry, or in high, cold towers, asking questions of the stars, along with those wonderful shots of Minas Tirith. That was a great scene.

That stirs a memory.

I honestly prefer the theatrical version of RotK to the Extended Edition -- whereas for the other two films, it's the other way round!

[yovargas]

I honestly prefer the theatrical version of RotK to the Extended Edition

Since you seem to have forgotten all the best EE stuff, don't be so sure!!
(Damn damn damn that POTD extension though. )

(I have no idea what Di is talking about. )

[Pearly Di]

Since you seem to have forgotten all the best EE stuff, don't be so sure!!

It was nice but couldn't compensate for the stuff I found a complete waste of time.

My reaction to the FotR:EE was the complete opposite. I loved all the additional scenes and thought the EE improved on FotR:TE.

(Damn damn damn that POTT extension though. )

POTT? What, pray, is this POTT?

Paths of the Dead? The letters don't match.

[Frelga]

Pirates of the Tomething?

Éowyn's dream (which was Tolkien's dream, and then Faramir's dream, before her)

That seemed a bit pointless, and Aragor was being creepy, IMO.

Merry's simple courage (where he talks about wishing that he could see Frodo, Sam and Pippin again)

Meh

Frodo and Sam seeing the king have a crown again

Great visual, but would it kill PJ to have Frodo say "They cannot conquer forever?" Instead of, in Di's immortal words, wibble.

Sam seeing the star over Mordor and saying that there was light and beauty that no shadow could touch

Yes!

Frodo and Sam getting caught by the Orcs, and escaping, and their journey in Mordor being otherwise extended

Yes.

Personally, I also liked the scene with Aragorn and the palantír, though it certainly wasn't canon.

NOOOOOO!

Éomer finding Éowyn on the battlefield, and his deperate concern for her while Aragorn heals her.

The short but sweet scenes between Éowyn and Faramir.

Both very, very good

The lovely little interaction between Faramir and Pippin

That was sweet, but I always thought of Faramir as a bookish child.

Faramir telling his father that he wouldn't use the ring to save Minas Tirith.

Yeah, that was good.

[Inanna]

I need to see the EEs.

[vison]

I guess I do, too. I haven't watched any of them all the way through. The kids haul them out now and again and I watch from the doorway whilst waiting for the kettle to boil, or whatever.

[Pearly Di]

The EEs are awesome on the big screen, lemme tell ya.

At least FotR:EE and TTT:EE were.

I saw them up in London a month before RotK's release.


Film Celeborn is just so good in the FotR:EE, so much better than he was in the theatrical release. A true Elven lord. Even if he does remind one a bit of Lucius Malfoy in looks. Not that that's a bad thing.

And Boromir in TTT:EE ... "For Gondor! For Gondor! For Gondor!"

[Mrs.Underhill]

Agree with everyone for whom the following was so upsetting:

The dialog turned upside-down so that Aragorn *advocates* ambushing the old man in Fangorn

Faramir's men doing a Rodney King on Gollum

Gandalf's preventing Saruman's killing only "because we need information"

Théoden waffling over honoring his duty under the Oath of Eorl

AGL beating down Meduseld's security detail in what looks remarkably like a palace coup

Entmoot- a decision changed from courage to faineance, to be restored only by Pippin's trickery. A twofer.

Almost everything to do with Elrond and Arwen's mutual manipulation

I'd add more:

Aragorn letting The Dead to scourge Minas Tirith

Legolas shooting Saruman(?!)

Aragorn (or was it Legolas?) shooting the Pirate who was going to parleau.
I must say I completely agree with Pearl Di in hating allmost all EE in RotK EE, because of stuff like this. The authors went amok on moral ambiguity in RotK extended scenes, and it was so painful to watch. I too prefer RotK theatrical.

As for the good scenes from RotK EE - mostly agree with Pearl Di, but I also didn't like the extension of Frodo and Sam scenes in the Tower and in Mordor. It was mostly more Orc fight and an escape gimmick from Frodo - which I thought would be improbable in his condition. Look, I'm all for more active role for Frodo, and was upset over many scenes where he got shafted of physical courage. But not in this case, not in Mordor. All the gimmicks there should belong to Sam.

Now to Osgiliath and the meaning of Frodo-Nazgûl, Frodo-Sam and Frodo-Faramir scenes there. I'm only happy to explain it to other people after I've seen the light myself.

Osgiliath makes total sense in the context of the movie, as it:

- Provides the motivation for Movie!Faramir to reject the Ring at let Frodo go.
How so? Try to watch it in TTT EE, and it becomes much more clear that Faramir refuses the Ring not because of Denethor, but because of Boromir, because he realizes of what the Ring did to Boromir, and how it brought about his destruction.

See how the scene of Crazed!Frodo-Sam fight mirrors the scene of Crazed!Boromir-Frodo fight in FotR. Recall that Sam, just a minute ago, told Faramir that "the Ring drove your brother mad", and that Boromir attacked Frodo. Faramir doesn't believe Sam at first, but then he sees almost the same exact scene playing before his very eyes.
But with one important difference. *Frodo stays his hand*, Frodo overcomes the Ring effect - by himself, and because of Sam.
Frodo and Sam succeded where Boromir failed. That's why Faramir sees hope in letting Frodo and Sam on their mission.

- It also shows the impossible burden on Frodo in ways not shown before, in the, IMHO, visually great scene of Nazgûl and the Ring tormenting Frodo and almost breaking him.
What does Frodo-Nazgûl thing represent? Yes, it is an equivalent of Minas Morgul scene where Frodo is pulled over to reveal himself to the Witch King, but resists with the help of Phial, which he accidentally touches. Here the role of the Phial is played by Sam.

- It also gives a great visual of Gondor desperation, in aireal attack on the city and everything falling apart. It also matches Frodo's condition - emphasised by a great shot of Saint!Frodo looking up on disentegrating city.

Osgiliath, by itself, is a great piece of cinema, and works in the context of the movie. Yes, it differs from the book, and yes, it does a lot of damage to Faramir's character, by making him motivated mostly by his family, and a jerk otherwise, beating of Gollum included.

In the movie, it is actually Faramir and not Sam who pushes Gollum over the brink and denies him redemption, first by setting up Forbidden Pool in a much more cruel way, not emphasing Frodo's role in saving Gollum, abusing Gollum afterwards, and worst of all, giving Gollum the final round of thrashing and threats before blessing the Hobbits and letting them go in the tunnel. In the context of the movie, that does it for Gollum, and pushes him to consider Shelob and to betray Hobbits.

UPD: Also agree on Gandalf's usurping Denethor's powers.
And Frelga - in the book, as you rightly noted, Denethor passes his power over to Gandalf with "do what you will, follow the Whie Wizard" etc., while Gandalf, till the last moment, tries to save him, to awaken sense in him. Big difference.
Also, beating a ruler with a staff before inert guards was awful. Especially a staff in the groin - ouch!

My biggest problem with Gondor's storyline was that the Gondorians came out of all of this looking like sheep willing to follow whatever happens to be around whenever they say.
As from Pushkin's Boris Godunov: "The people are silent".

[Frelga]

My biggest problem with Gondor's storyline was that the Gondorians came out of all of this looking like sheep willing to follow whatever happens to be around whenever they say.
As from Pushkin's Boris Godunov: "The people are silent".

Hullo there, Mrs. U! Haven't seen you in a while.

[sidetrack]Anyway, in Pushkin, the people being silent is a portent of popular discontent and possible rebellion - the people refusing to cheer as ordered.[/sidetrack] Those Gondor dudes are entirely incompetent.

Gandalf's preventing Saruman's killing only "because we need information"

Yes, that one. Aside for the moral aspect of it, what information does he want? Even in the context of the book, there aren't many choices. In the movie? Hm... where could Sauron strike? Well, there's Gondor. Or Gondor. Or, wait, there's also... Gondor. Which, apparently, is limited to Osgiliath and Minas Tirith.

[Mrs.Underhill]

Hullo there, Mrs. U! Haven't seen you in a while.

I'm glad to be back!

As for "the people are silent" I also took it as a bit of cynical indifference and being fed up, plus discontent, yes.
But who knows what those Gondorians were thinking. Maybe they weren't very pleased, for example, with Faramir leading a major defence force away from the city to certain death, just to impress his father. But apathy must have won with them.

While visually Minas Tirith and Gondorians were great, I should add.

[Siberian]

PJ believes in lies and tricks more than honesty. If Ents have to be tricked into attacking Saruman, why not trick the Rohirrim into aiding Gondor? At least it's consistent It's all part of his grand artistic vision, you know.

[Alatar]

Woah, bitter much?

[Siberian]

Woah, bitter much?

Disappointed. FOTR showed much promise but most of it was wasted.

What I'm pissed at is the trio's glib remarks about how the professor is wrong and they know better. That's not what they said before the movies proved to be a hit. I know, I followed the preproduction and filming almost from the start.