Discussion of Racism

Discussions of and about the historic 2008 U.S. Presidential Election
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Well said, Impish.
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Post by yovargas »

I haven't read the article or listened to the interview - I pretty much don't care about this guy anymore - but it seems a fair question to ask: is it possible in your (generic your) view for a black man to have racist attitudes towards whites?
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Post by Impenitent »

I find that such an odd questions, yov.

From Dictionary.com:

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

I don't think skin colour would determine whether a person is capable or incapable of adhering to such reprehensible beliefs.
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Post by Griffon64 »

Isn't there white children who learn "from the right side" too, though? :scratch: And black children who can learn on the logical, analytic side? Bunches of it comes from culture and what you grew up with, maybe some of it is genetic without being race-specific

Goodness knows, it would be a great day for humanity when we can truly celebrate differences without feeling threatened by it. That day may come sooner if people do not try to change or expect everybody to be like themselves or some melting-pot ideal - but that is countered by: respect the differences of others. And, of course, throw away the pigeonholes and compartments.

Or something. It is a complicated world out there. I delight in its differences as long as I'm also allowed to be myself, while respecting my fellow humans.
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Post by Faramond »

I don't even know where to begin. I can't believe this racist brain-difference garbage has to even be argued against. It's being dressed up as diversity and cultural tolerance but when you boil down what Wright is really saying you get something as nasty as would come out of David Duke's mouth.

Could anyone really think that it's true that we can assign left-brained to all kids of one race and right-brained to kids of another race? Did anyone ever stop to think that there isn't a monolithic white culture and black culture? Did anyone ever reflect upon the reality that almost all children of any race have both analytical and creative capabilities?

So when I look at a black person, am I supposed to think, "he can't learn the way a white person could --- he can't be logical and analytical --- he was too busy climbing on desks and being creative as a kid." Because, you know, that's the natural conclusion to be taken from what Wright has said.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I think this is typical of Wright. He takes a valid observation - that many black children are aculturated differently than many white children and therefore learn differently - and then exxagerates it into a hard and fast generalization that not only can't be supported by the facts, but also tends to close off the possibility of having the kind of valid discussion of the subject that is so desperately needed.

A shame, really.
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Post by Faramond »

What kind of discussion is needed?
He takes a valid observation - that many black children are aculturated differently than many white children and therefore learn differently
But is this really true? My understanding is that how we learn is more a product of brain wiring than culture. I think it's telling that a great deal of the passage is devoted to music, which is one case where there are undoubtedly different African and European forms. But being familiar with different music is not the same as learning in different ways.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Faramond wrote:What kind of discussion is needed?
A discussion that will help us get to the point where "we can truly celebrate differences without feeling threatened by it" (as a certain wise woman put it).
My understanding is that how we learn is more a product of brain wiring than culture.
That is by no means a universally accepted belief. I certainly believe that culture has a lot to do with how we learn, and many (but by no means all) experts in the field believe so as well.
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Post by yovargas »

Impenitent wrote:I find that such an odd questions, yov.
I ask because I wonder what a black person would have to do for the label "racism" to be deemed appropriate. The Wright "different not deficient" speech (I ended up reading most of it) is something I have no doubt whatsoever would be getting shouts of racism were it said by a white man. I have no trouble calling it racism when said by a black man.
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Post by halplm »

Wright is a racist. He proves it more and more every time he opens his mouth.
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Post by River »

yovargas wrote:
Impenitent wrote:I find that such an odd questions, yov.
I ask because I wonder what a black person would have to do for the label "racism" to be deemed appropriate. The Wright "different not deficient" speech (I ended up reading most of it) is something I have no doubt whatsoever would be getting shouts of racism were it said by a white man. I have no trouble calling it racism when said by a black man.
Yeah, I read that and wondered if he realized that those broad generalizations hurt way more than they help.
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Post by Jnyusa »

Faramond wrote: But is this really true? My understanding is that how we learn is more a product of brain wiring than culture.
That is my understanding as well, Faramond. We are trained to use multiple approaches with our students, because their hardwiring is, in fact, different.

However, it is also true that students with a particular kind of hardwiring tend to glom on to particular fields of study. One of the things I have to contend with is that Business students tend to be visual learners, whereas Business professors tend to be verbal learners. So we have to learn to go against our own grain in order to teach our students.

This is not a cultural difference, but I wonder whether cultural differences could install or at least favor differences of other sorts ... such that, given a weak correlation in hardwiring, race would be a predictor of likely learning method.

Don't get me wrong ... I don't think that a study of this sort would generate results broadly applicable enough to be of use ... and I think that Rev. Wright is jumping over his own pipik on this one ... but from an empirical point of view I just don't know how cut and dried the issue might be.

I'm being a bit polemic here ... so take this as the aside it is intended to be. The issue of learning method has nothing to do with the campaign, or even with racism as such. I certainly agree that Rev. Wright is preaching now from a bandstand, and he would help his flock the most by shutting up at this point.
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Post by anthriel »

One of the things I have to contend with is that Business students tend to be visual learners, whereas Business professors tend to be verbal learners. So we have to learn to go against our own grain in order to teach our students.



That's interesting, Jn. Because surely Business professors were Business students at one time? Does one's "mode" of learning change over time?

I agree with the hardwiring idea, but I also think that the environment in which one is raised has a strong effect on learning styles. My son had the incorrect eyeglass prescription for two years (perhaps you all remember that story?) and is now an extremely dependent aural learner.

My thought is that perhaps he was hardwired to follow his ears when learning, but perhaps he had no chance of being a visual learner in those years: he simply couldn't see. So maybe he adapted to listening to learn, and has continued with that mode.

He was and is very good on spelling tests... which seems odd when I realized he was good at this when he couldn't see. But he says he listens to the teacher spell the word, and remembers the letters as a musical string. Every word becomes a song.


I thought that was cool. :)

I certainly agree that Rev. Wright is preaching now from a bandstand, and he would help his flock the most by shutting up at this point.

Well, Rev. Wright sure would help Obama if he would just shut his pie hole. But I think that is unlikely; the good reverend seems to like that bandstand, unfortunately.
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Post by Jnyusa »

Anth wrote:hat's interesting, Jn. Because surely Business professors were Business students at one time? Does one's "mode" of learning change over time?
The small percentage of Business students who eventually become Business professors were always verbal learners. But we have to teach to the middle. Those capable of becoming professors are also capable of learning the material on their own. (At the basic level this is surely true ... by the time you get to grad school it's not true, but by then you're with you're own kind.)
But he says he listens to the teacher spell the word, and remembers the letters as a musical string. Every word becomes a song.
That is really cool, and worth exploring.
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Post by River »

Brain wiring and culture play off each other guys. Some tendencies are inborn, others are the result of stimuli as the brain develops through childhood and adolescence. And some inborn tendencies could very well be the result of stimuli in utero and not flat out genetics. When it comes to brains and personalities, nature and nurture are hard to untangle. Be careful.
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Post by axordil »

And don't forget epigenetics! :D
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Post by River »

That's the stimuli in utero bit. :P

You are what you eat and what your mom ate. :D
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Post by axordil »

And what your grandparents ate, if that Scandinavian study is right.
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Post by Cerin »

yovargas wrote:I ask because I wonder what a black person would have to do for the label "racism" to be deemed appropriate.

My understanding is, the black person would have to be a member of a group (black persons) that was in a position of power so as to be able to institutionally oppress the group of people they were talking about. In other words, they would have to be in a position to put their beliefs/attitude into action on a broad scale.
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Post by Impenitent »

Cerin wrote:
yovargas wrote:I ask because I wonder what a black person would have to do for the label "racism" to be deemed appropriate.

My understanding is, the black person would have to be a member of a group (black persons) that was in a position of power so as to be able to institutionally oppress the group of people they were talking about. In other words, they would have to be in a position to put their beliefs/attitude into action on a broad scale.
Really? I disagree with this. I think it is possible to hate on a small scale. One need only be in a position of power adequate to oppressing one person at a time - a pre-school carer towards a pre-schooler in one's care; or a middle manager towards one being managed; or a professor towards a student of the 'wrong' race - or even a cabbie towards a passenger being taken the 'long' way.

I think hate is so very easily expressed in covert ways. Positions of power are relative.
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