Would you vote for a Mormon president? (or highest elected)

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Would you vote for a Mormon president? (or highest elected)

Post by nerdanel »

A potentially provocative question, but I'm interested to hear how people feel and why. Please note that I am not asking, "Would you vote for Mitt Romney?" (although, if you feel that Romney is "typically" Mormon in any relevant sense, feel free to use him as an example of why you would or would not be open to the possibility of voting for a Mormon candidate.) For non-Americans, I'm equally interested to know whether you would vote for a Mormon for your country's highest elected position.

Broadly speaking, it seems to me that people who might have reservations about voting for a given Mormon as president fall into three categories:

(1) People who have reservations about Mormon theology that are so strong that they do not feel that someone who embraces said theology should hold their nation's highest office. (If you fall into this category, please elaborate on whether you would harbor similar reservations about people from other religious backgrounds, and if so, which ones (e.g. all non-Christians? Mormons? Jehovah's Witnesses? Hindus? Polytheists? Wiccans?))

(2) People who are not de facto opposed to a Mormon as President, but whose views on social issues (or other issues?) are so different than those commonly held by Mormons that they are unlikely ever to support the merits of a Mormon's platform. (If you fall into this category, please elaborate on whether you would be able to vote for a Mormon whose views on social (or other) issues were more closely in line with your own.)

(3) People who don't have either of the above broad-based reservations about Mormon candidates, but still reach the conclusion that a given Mormon candidate falls short on the (other) merits of his or her platform.

Of course, then there are the people who could, or would, support a Mormon candidate for President. I want to hear from those, too. :)
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Post by Primula Baggins »

I'm a (3). I could never vote for Mitt Romney. I do also think it's quite unlikely that I would be able to vote for any Mormon candidate whose views on social issues were in line with those of the church elders. But that doesn't make me a (2), because I wouldn't make that judgment until I knew the actual candidate's actual positions.

A Mormon candidate with positions on social issues that I could support, BTW, would probably be on his way to excommunication. I don't think it's likely to come up in a church where one can be excommunicated for being a feminist.

To say that one will never vote for a candidate of a particular faith or no faith is, I have to say, un-American.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

(e) None of the above. :P

I'm definitely not a (1) because I don't look at a candidate's religious beliefs in determining whether to vote for her.

I'm definitely not a (2) because I don't look at a candidate's religious beliefs in determining whether to vote for her.

I'm definitely not a (3) because I don't look at a candidate's religious beliefs in determining whether to vote for her.

That having been said, I certainly will not be voting for Mitt Romney. But not because he's a Mormon.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Reread that, Voronwë—(3) has nothing to do with the religious beliefs of the candidate:
Nel wrote:(3) People who don't have either of the above broad-based reservations about Mormon candidates, but still reach the conclusion that a given Mormon candidate falls short on the (other) merits of his or her platform.
(bolding mine)
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Post by yovargas »

I don't really know enough to say but maybe out of ignorance (which, you know, breeds fear) I'd think it pretty unlikely that a member of the Mormon church would have views compatible with my own.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

I would be surprised if there wasn't a wide range of opinion within the Mormon church as in other churches. But the Mormon church does very specifically dislike its members taking public positions that disagree with those of the church.

So, one can have a particular view the church hierarchy dislikes and get by, but if you tried to run for office (or wrote a book, or made speeches) based on that view, you would at the very least be brought in to explain yourself and might well be thrown out.

Most churches do not do this.
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Post by Jnyusa »

I would never personally vote into high office:

A Mormon who was endorsed by her church
A Catholic who was endorsed by her church
A 'Fundamentalist' Christian endorsed by any minister
An Orthodox Jew endorsed by the Rabbinate
Any Jew endorsed by the State of Israel
An Orthodox Moslem endorsed by any mullah

I would not vote for any person whose religious beliefs superceded their civic beliefs. If you want to be religious, run for Pope or Chief Rabbi, not for President.

Thing is, in the US, people running for high office have to be nominally religious; that is, they have to appear in church or synagogue or mosque, participate in the community of God-fearing people, and look ... righteous. They might break all ten commandment every seven days of the week and twice on Sunday, as the saying goes, but they have to pretend to some religiousity. So it can be hard to tell whether a candidate really is a puppet of organized religion or only pretending ... or, as in the case of someone like Jimmy Carter, seemingly very spiritual but well-able to distinguish between personal beliefs and civic representation.

And also, in the US, the mainstream Protestant churches have evolved a set of religious beliefs that look very much like our civic beliefs and our public ethic, so there is no particular reason to be alarmed at the nominal religiousity of most candidates, most candidates being (hitherto) some denomination of Protestant other than the Fundamentalist variety. Whether they came to resemble America or whether America came to resemble them is an interesting question, but the net effect is that one doesn't fear abrupt changes of direction when mainstream Protestants are elected. The Anglicans are starting to get up my nose a bit with the schism over homosexuality, but that hasn't entered the political arena yet. It has stayed an issue of the church membership, as it should.

I am seriously allergic to the mixing of religion and politics, and some religions seem more inclined to do this than others. So I am definitely more mistrustful of candidates from those backgrounds (including my own).

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Post by Teremia »

On my really grumpy days I say nobody who really believes in life-after-death in a literal sense should be allowed to hold a public office in which they would have to make life or death decisions for other people. In other words, I am really not comfortable with someone who has a literal and concrete belief in "heaven" deciding questions of capital punishment or war.

An example from the Albigensian Crusade, courtesy of Wikipedia:
In July the crusaders captured the small village of Servian and headed for Béziers, arriving on July 21. They invested the city, called the Catholics within to come out, and demanded that the Cathars surrender. Both groups refused. The city fell the following day when an abortive sortie was pursued back through the open gates. The entire population was slaughtered and the city burned to the ground. According to the Cistercian writer Caesar of Heisterbach, one of the leaders of the Crusader army, the Papal legate Arnaud-Amaury, was asked by a Crusader how to distinguish the Cathars from the Catholics. He answered: Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius" — "Kill them [all]! Surely the Lord discerns which [ones] are his."[1] Contemporary sources give estimates of the number of dead ranging between seven and twenty thousand.
That sort of thing really gets me down. :cry:

p.s. on the Mormon candidate question, I can say with confidence that I would never vote for Mitt Romney, but not on theological grounds.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Primula Baggins wrote:Reread that, Voronwë—(3) has nothing to do with the religious beliefs of the candidate:
Nel wrote:(3) People who don't have either of the above broad-based reservations about Mormon candidates, but still reach the conclusion that a given Mormon candidate falls short on the (other) merits of his or her platform.
(bolding mine)
I read it pretty carefully, Prim. As long as the consideration is whether the person is a Mormon (or Lutheran, or Jew, or Muslim, or Taoist, or whatever) it is de facto taking into consideration their religious beliefs.

Now, if they let those religious beliefs (or their religious affiliation) affect their positions in the issues, that is something that I would take into consideration. But only what the affect on the positions, not what the beliefs (or affiliation).

Does that make more sense?
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Post by Primula Baggins »

I guess I just read it differently—that it wouldn't matter for (3) what faith a candidate had. If that is not the case, I would answer differently, of course.

What I meant was that in my opinion a (the) given Mormon candidate (Mitt Romney) falls short on the merits of his platform. Not because he is Mormon, but because of the platform. I don't see anything shocking or regressive about that.

Surely I should not have to cut Romney extra slack because he's of a "non-mainstream" religion.

If I disagree strongly with his position on many issues that are important to me, surely I should be able to say no.

Isn't the whole point that his religion should be irrelevant and that I should be basing my decision on his politics?
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
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Post by Holbytla »

Since this country is very diverse with regards to religion, I believe it would be common for people to feel reticent to vote for anyone belonging to any kind of organization that doesn't at least partially represent a broad base of beliefs.
Whether or not there would be any real affects on decisions because of those beliefs is pretty much moot because politics is mostly perceptions, and people will vote with what they perceive to be the truth. Facts need not apply in most instances.

I am not going to pick someone to represent me that I feel doesn't represent the majority of the people of this country.
That doesn't rule out Mormons or any other belief, but to be strongly tied to any organization that isn't broadly accepted country wide, is something I would have a hard time getting past.

As for Romney himself?
Hah. We just got rid of him. I don't want him to represent me again.

No I wouldn't not vote for someone that is a Mormon, but they would have to show me their ideals are broadly based.
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Post by anthriel »

It would never occur to me to hesitate to vote for someone, simply because he was a Mormon.

I, personally, disagree with a lot of the tenets of the Mormon faith, and some of them, frankly, scare me.

But I do realize that some people feel that way about my faith.

If the guy had a platform that I felt was the best for the country, I don't care what his religion is. I'm not voting on the Mormon faith, I'm voting on that individual, and his/her capabilities in the office for which they are headed.

Aren't these some of the same stereotypes and fears that faced JFK when he ran for president?
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Post by anthriel »

On my really grumpy days I say nobody who really believes in life-after-death in a literal sense should be allowed to hold a public office in which they would have to make life or death decisions for other people. In other words, I am really not comfortable with someone who has a literal and concrete belief in "heaven" deciding questions of capital punishment or war.

I think this is really interesting, Teremia!

But I have a literal and concrete belief in "heaven", and yet I disagree with capital punishment and am very, very negative about the whole idea of war.

I see your point how one belief could lead to a certain... callousness?... in one's choices on the other. But it's certainly not a direct correlation. (And I know you weren't implying that... you did say "on your grumpiest days!")
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Post by axordil »

There are varieties of Mormonism. I have a friend whose affiliation is with a pretty laid-back variety, not centered in Utah, and he's a fairly reasonable guy. I've worked with a woman who had the same relationship with her Mormonism that I used to have with SF: wouldn't it be cool if that stuff happened?

But if we're talking about SLC-based Mormonism, I can't see someone who deeply ascribes to the beliefs there ever getting my vote. Their worldview and mine are simply too dissimilar for their likely policies to be compatible with my ideas on how things should be.
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Post by Glawariel »

Jnyusa wrote:I would never personally vote into high office:

A Mormon who was endorsed by her church
A Catholic who was endorsed by her church
A 'Fundamentalist' Christian endorsed by any minister
An Orthodox Jew endorsed by the Rabbinate
Any Jew endorsed by the State of Israel
An Orthodox Moslem endorsed by any mullah

I would not vote for any person whose religious beliefs superceded their civic beliefs. If you want to be religious, run for Pope or Chief Rabbi, not for President.
I do not understand your statement about any Jew endorsed by the State of Israel. Did you mean to say endorsed by the Chief Rabbinate of Israel, because the Rabbinate and the Knesset are 2 totally different things. And why should it matter if an American candidate is endorsed by an international country regardless of their religious affiliation? What if Israrel's endorsement was for a non-Jewish candidate? The decision of whether or not a candidate for the US presidency is deserving of Israel's support is most likely not at all about religious beliefs but rather on international policy regarding that region. And what if the Israeli government (as in the prime minister and the majority in the knesset) at that time was a completely secular party whose focus and priority is not on religious beliefs at all and have very left wing political opinions.

It's true that Israel is unique in that religion is a major influence and significant factor there but there is no such expectation of the US which is much more of a "secular" country- as in separation of church and state. Is that why you singled out Israel in that regard? Would you say the same of the endorsement from an other country where a different particular religious belief was dominant? I also do not understand how your discomfort with a Jew endorsed by the State of Israel follows from the reason you gave for your above hesitations.
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Post by Jnyusa »

Glawariel,

My mistrust is aimed at any candidate who seems to be subservient to interests other than the civic interests of our own country.

I threw in the State of Israel, meaning the Knesset, distinct from the Rabbinate, as indication that it is not only regilious affiliation that might compromise a candidate's position in my eyes. The Jewish neocons who 'represent' Israeli interest within our current administration alarm me just as much as the Christian Fundamentalist contingent.

Because I am an American and not an Israeli, I feel strongly that my support for Israel, in whose survival I hold a stake as a Jew, should be expressed through the WZO and not by attempting to elect candidates within the United States who would place Israeli interest above American interest. Endorsement by the Likud (for example) is not necessarily indication of this - I doubt I could define any one thing that would be by itself an indication of this, but I submit that I would know it when I see it, and I would not vote for such a person.

It is treacherous to use Israel as an example of this - to point a finger at this potential - because 'dual loyalty' has long been one of the charges used to justify persecution of Jews. That was the charge against Kennedy when he ran as well.

And I do not think the concerns about a Catholic president were necessarily eyewash, because the Vatican has no small amount of political and economic power, and it may be that Kennedy's several anti-Communist boondoggles did arise from the 'indoctination' of his Catholic upbringing. There was talk at the time that his support for the Diem government in Vietnam was at the urging of the Vatican, but my own opinion (just from cursory knowledge, not from analysis) is that Kennedy did not pursue specific actions because of undue influence but rather that he probably thought a certain way about global issues because of his Catholicism, and of course there is no way to avoid the general influence of background on any candidate. Rational people do not vote on this basis alone. The question is whether the candidate is transparent about their policy for America and whether its main object is service to America. As much as I disagreed with Kennedy on many issues, I do not believe that he held any dual loyalties.

I dared to use Israel as an example, in spite of the historic imprudence of doing so, in order to use my own People as an example and not someone else. But I have the same feelings about the role Cuban Americans have played in US politics. I would not vote for a Cuban American whose support for anti-Castro foreign policy was a centerpiece of their campaign, and I would not vote for a Jewish American whose support for Israel was a centerpiece of their campaign. It was wildly distressing to me when we learned that a Catholic Bishop was withholding communion from Catholic candidates who did not oppose abortion. This crosses a line for me. And if Secretary Wolfewitz views the US Defense machine as an aegis for the Israeli defense machine, that crosses the line for me as well.

We live in an area of Philadelphia that is sort of an old Tory haven (the Main Line) ... very old English money here. And before concerts and sporting events they sing God Save the Queen. I have to tell you that this creeps me out. :P It also troubles me to sing Hatikva in the synagogue. There's something about the national anthem of another country that does not feel to me appropriate as a public expression within the United States. Find something else to express ethnic affiliation, but not a national anthem.

This is not to say that I would give my vote to someone who advocated the abandonment of Israel! But a particular policy on Israel - using Knesset endorsement as a sort of barometer - would not be a deciding issue for me at the polls. I have other civic mechanisms available to me for protecting my civil and human rights as a Jew within America, and for exercising whatever influence in Israel I might feel entitled to as a Jew, i.e through the WZO. It is also my opinion that using American administrations to clear a path for Israel has not been good for Israel. Crossing one's objectives and loyalties never has a happy ending, in my opinion, no matter what the issue is. If your first loyalty is to Israel or to England or to Cuba, then go live in Israel or England or Cuba.

It's unfashionable to look at things like race, religion, ethnicity, or even foreign affiliation when forming political opinions. How well I know! But it is impractical to ignore them, imo, IF they appear to have significant influence on the candidate's opinions.

And we are talking here about my one vote - on what bases might I withhold that from a candidate. Anything that caused me to suspect they raised some other value above their civic service to America would cause me to withhold my vote from them.

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Post by Teremia »

This thread has become a cloning experiment!! What's the Mormon view on that?

But seriously, Anthriel, of course I know and love :love: many people who have some sort of belief in an afterlife, and because they are good people, they are not, I know, the sort of people who would make callous decisions if they were to find themselves In Charge! And the people who do do such things are probably fairly callous generally, and would go to war and order the destruction of others even if they had been born without the faith gene.

But it's when I hear people soothe themselves for having made a hateful and callous decision with platitudes about the afterlife -- as if it doesn't really matter what I just did to this particular human being, because God will sort it out later -- then I get really, as I said, grumpy. I remember when a campaigning Bush had a completely reformed woman executed in Texas in 1998:
CNN wrote:Minutes before her execution, Texas Gov. George W. Bush denied Tucker a one-time, 30-day reprieve, saying her cause had been thoroughly reviewed by appellate courts. The U.S. Supreme Court also rejected without comment two 11th-hour appeals to halt the execution.

"Like many touched by this case, I have sought guidance through prayer. I have concluded judgment about the heart and soul of an individual on death row are best left to a higher authority," Bush said.

The governor said it's his job to make sure the laws in Texas are enforced fairly and evenly, and that no preference or special treatment is given to anyone. He ended his statement by saying, "May God bless Karla Faye Tucker and may God bless her victims' families."
OK, now this turns my stomach. She was about the most "reformed" criminal there ever was, and it was really appalling to execute her (full disclosure: I'm against executions under any circumstances). But the then-Governor assuages his conscience with a "God bless Karla Faye Tucker"! I find that obscene.
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Post by ToshoftheWuffingas »

We live in an area of Philadelphia that is sort of an old Tory haven (the Main Line) ... very old English money here. And before concerts and sporting events they sing God Save the Queen. I have to tell you that this creeps me out.......


There's something about the national anthem of another country that does not feel to me appropriate as a public expression within the United States. Find something else to express ethnic affiliation, but not a national anthem.
:rofl:
A lot of us British get creeped out by our anthem too. It is a dreary dirge. :D We sing other of our national songs with far more enthusiasm. Strangely, we have no particular worry about other anthems being played. The Marseillaise and the Star Spangled Banner as the best known ones would be treated with respect and anyone complaining would be seen as a bit unusual. You might notice that our Last Night of the Proms party concert which is about as nationalistic as the English get has scores of foreign flags waved merrily in the audience.
You have it spot on that religious duty should come second to civic duty. All we require from politicians is decency and wisdom and no religion has the monopoly on that.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Anthriel wrote:
On my really grumpy days I say nobody who really believes in life-after-death in a literal sense should be allowed to hold a public office in which they would have to make life or death decisions for other people. In other words, I am really not comfortable with someone who has a literal and concrete belief in "heaven" deciding questions of capital punishment or war.

I think this is really interesting, Teremia!

But I have a literal and concrete belief in "heaven", and yet I disagree with capital punishment and am very, very negative about the whole idea of war.

I see your point how one belief could lead to a certain... callousness?... in one's choices on the other. But it's certainly not a direct correlation. (And I know you weren't implying that... you did say "on your grumpiest days!")
As usual, Anthriel bears out my point for me. You simply can not judge what someone's positions on the issues are going to be based on their religious beliefs or affiliation, and as much as you can say you are not doing so, as soon as those beliefs or affiliation get taken into consideration ON ANY LEVEL, it is going to effect most people's impression of that candidates position on the issues is likely to be.
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Post by Teremia »

My response to Anthriel just got lost on the bottom of the previous page, due to a moment of Unprecedented Thread Activity (UTA -- something like turbulence as you cross the Rockies).

But anyway, of course it's not religion to blame when people behave badly. People tend to do very bad things, and religion just happens to be the excuse for a large percentage of 'em. (People also tend to do good things, and religion can't be "blamed" for those either!) Religion does not make people "good" or "bad."

STILL, if a person says, "I'm a devout X," and religion X has components which make your skin crawl, I don't see why it would be wise to vote for that person. (It's the "devout" rather than the "X" that really causes the problem in a secular society, if you see what I mean! :D)
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