Heathens

For discussion of philosophy, religion, spirituality, or any topic that posters wish to approach from a spiritual or religious perspective.
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Maria
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Post by Maria »

Your reaction reminds me of ME a decade ago, Vison, when I still believed that nothing supernatural was real. The deaths of my grandparents was intolerable, because I had the world view that this was IT. Life was over, finis. Nothing more. Nothing the minister said could help because I knew it was all lies and self deception and made me cry more. I took it very hard for a very long time.

When my dear father-in-law was dying a couple of years ago, I had just begun to read about the Wiccan religion, and had found quite a few explanations for some strange things that had happened in my life and was willing to give the unprovable parts of their beliefs the benefit of a doubt. I didn't know how to energy heal yet, so I couldn't help him fight it.... but I felt so sorry for him. He'd been fighting cancer for so long, and had already lasted 3 or 4 times longer than expected.

We visited, and he seemed quite cheerful and we finally went home, and then we got a call in the middle of the night that he'd died. It was October 31, All Hallows Eve. The night that is supposedly when the "veils between the worlds" are thinnest. I think he finally saw something that night that made him less afraid, and finally stop clinging to his body and cross over.

I could never have entertained this theory in my previous mindset, nor have believed my mother-in-law a bit later when she told us she thought she'd had a message from him: A palm frond she'd loaded into the back of her van appeared on the driver's seat while she went back into the building. She told us that she thought he'd done it, and that it was supposed to mean that everything was all right between them now. I found out later that they'd had serious trouble in the last couple of decades of their marriage.

Anyway, I guess my point is this: When I was being logical and rational and Oh So Scientific and rejecting all supernatural explanations, I hurt for MUCH MUCH longer than when I accepted the fact that there just might be more to the universe than meets the eye, or that we can explain.

Perhaps there is another dimension that we cannot see or measure, but that interacts with our 4 dimensions in a limited fashion. That perhaps the soul or chi energy or higher self originates there, and is drawn back when the physical connections with the body die. Perhaps that soul does get to play the game again, as a different character. Perhaps souls do compare notes about their previous lives and laugh about who did what to who before they jump back into the game for another round.

It's really impossible to tell from this perspective, but it doesn't hurt anything to toy with the idea. And if it helps get over emotional pain faster, why not use that whatever religious or philosophical mental framework works for you? I've been there, without the support of a belief system, and it was pretty bleak. I don't physically do anything different now that I've incorporated so many religious ideas into worldview... but what goes on inside my head is pretty cool sometimes- especially when it appears to have a real world impact.

The only concerns I have about my worldview right now is that it might not be appropriate for all personality types. What I have is a stripped down version of basic psychic powers without ANY morality attached. It is a neutral force, neither good nor evil in itself- how the person uses it determines that.

I think most religions try to teach morality to go along with the psychic stuff because there are a lot of types of person who would not be nice without a clear moral code, and a clear punishment lined out for transgressions. I don't think I need that part of any religion. I really don't enjoy hurting others, and try to avoid it as much as possible. I was this way long before I learned of Karma and/or the Wiccan rule of three. So that part of any religion is just so much static to me.

There seems to be some *truth* in every religion that I've looked at so far-- a basic system of how to use "supernatural" systems to provoke change in the world -- and so I tend to keep looking for those tidbits of stuff that actually works. I even snagged some stuff out of Christianity when I read the atheist's annotated bible, book of Matthew. There was a part where Jesus was scolding his followers for praying the same way all the time and I've found that this is useful. NEVER get into a rote way of saying a prayer, or shaping the forces the way you want. Do it different EVERY time, and your results will be that much more powerful. At least have several different ways to ask for the same thing and rotate them, so you don't get mentally dull. Intent is everything in this sort of thing and if you get in a habit shaping the energy in the same way EVERY time, it ceases to work.

I'm making it sound like I crazy magical stuff every day, but the only thing I do every day is maintaining my own health. I'm on a rather strict diet right now, and every night before I go to sleep, I "meditate" and envision anything that's working wrong in my body being set right and encourage the fat stores to be accessed properly and generally just keep everything going right, because every time I've been on a diet before- I've gotten sick and quit after a little while. Now I'm into my third month, and have not been sick at all and am still on schedule as far as weight loss goes.

Doing this EVERY night makes it rather challenging to think of different ways to envision it every day, but apparently I've got a good imagination. ;) The first step is always to let down the "shields" of my aura so I can do an energy exchange. Sometimes I do this by envisioning the shields as a Star Trek style forcefield, and I flick a switch and they disappear with an appropriate hum! :) Sometimes the shields are a shell of ice and the temp goes up and they melt and run away. Sometimes they are smoke, and a puff of wind poofs them away. Sometimes they are like the shields on Batman's car, and they fold away. And on bad days, they can be bricks, and I have to pry them off one at a time after breaking the mortar. :(

Anyway, I digress. When I read a religious, psychic or otherwise metaphysical text or even a medical book, if I find ONE useful thing in the whole book, I consider my time well spent.

That stuff about your brother is very interesting, Ethel. Native American spiritual traditions are something I really know nothing about. I'm probably too focussed on the purely mental aspect of all this. My dad works as an archaeologist, though, and any time they find Native American remains, by law they have to call in a shaman (is that the word?) before they can proceed with the dig. Once they found a child's burial somewhere in Eastern Texas, and called in the local shaman, a young man, and as he did his thing over the grave, my dad says a small dust devil kicked up not far away and came close and circled the shaman and the onlookers and then disippated.

They were all amazed, and my dad says the funniest expression was on the shaman's face, like: WOW! This stuff really WORKS! :shock:

My dad never tells supernatural stories like that, so this one really made an impact on us.
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vison
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Post by vison »

Thank you, MariaHobbit.

A long post that deserves a long reply, but I can't do that right now. Excellent post. :)
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TIGG
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Post by TIGG »

Ethel :hug:

I teared up as I read your words, and further more as I read Visions and Maria's posts.

This week I said goodbye to an extraordinary young man, sitting through his service was a lesson in itself. I remember my first encounter with the death of a loved one, cried for over 12 months, it took until recently for me to speak of my grandmother without crying. She died 3 days before my 21st birthday and was buried the day before. I had 2 children, a 3 1/2 year old son and an 18 month old daughter. Sitting through that service with my daughter in my arms, she reached up with a handkerchief and wiped away my tears.

Monday we sat side by side and farewelled a 29 year old man, who had battled a terrible disease for the last 2 years. Both of us sat with no handkerchiefs or tissues and tears rolling down our cheeks, while my son stood and spoke of the young man who was his best friend and 'chosen brother'.

The difference in my learning to deal with grief is I cried for what we had lost, for what Jason had been robbed of, but I celebrated the fact I had known him, that I was his 'chosen' other mum. It would be a terrible thing to believe that so vital a spirit was extinguished and so I believe that we continue on not just in memories but on a higher level.

Over the years I have had my palm read, just recently in Dubai, some of the things I was told puzzled me, when I got home I discovered events had occured in my abscence that were being hidden from me and explained my confusion.

The first time I had my cards read, I was worried that I had 'self fullfilled' the prophecy's, even then knowing that I had in fact avoided and tried to stop some of them, because they were such painful experiences.

The second time my cards were read, I was told my son was to travel overseas ( I expected that, he was planning on working in London) the reader said: "no, it would be somewhere not the norm", he spent 6 months in China. I was told I would travel overseas, this I discounted, because my husband was anti travel, yet last year we went to Europe.
I was told I would win a prize about the same time as we planned the trip. I won a lovely 'summer of Gold' kit, barbecue, stereo, table, all the requirements for an outdoor barbecue.

I was told I would lead a long life. That sustains me during the headaches and side effects of my condition.

I do NOT like to believe that my life is 'mapped out' but there is comfort at some level, because it means that there is something more. Something long term, and I can grieve the loss of someone I love while still holding on to the belief that sometime in the future we will interact again.


My cat is my soul mate, she was born on the anniversary of my fathers birthday, she was meant to be mine.

recently my daughter was trying to purchase a puppy, 2 litters were Phantom pregnancy, then she saw another one registered, the sire was Kidsgrove Bilbo Baggins, the lines traced back to our Staffordshires, the litter was born on my husbands b'day, the grand sire was .... Basil razzmattaz. ( our nickname for my husband). She phoned, and was told another couple had first right of refusal. She was devestated. I said "don't worry, that puppy is yours, it is meant for you". The other couple did not keep in touch and young Neo ( formal name:.(kennel name)..... dragonslayer) is now my 'grand Puppy'. :D

somethings are meant, and we must have faith that if it is meant if will happen.


now thats alll the ramblings of this Tigger I will subject you to for the moment ;)
da TIGG is back and bouncin'
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Dave_LF
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Post by Dave_LF »

I am also a "heathen" (or whatever word you prefer); having been brought up a conservative Christian, but choosing another way in early adulthood. The whole thing used to be a real hot button issue for me but, happy to say, it's become less important and less a source of angst as time has gone by. It's still a subject on which I can be rather long-winded once I get started, but that's not likely to happen tonight.
Then, some of the fish designs have feet and inside is the word "Darwin"
I dislike the Darwin fish even though I'm a member of the target demographic. For one thing, it carries the implication that Darwin is a god or messianic figure. He is not. He's not even a "founding father" of the philosophies that are usually attached. For another, it's mocking in both senses of the word. It feels too much like picking a fight. Finally, I think it's unhealthy to define yourself by what you are not or by what you oppose--it's the same reason I squirm a little when people list "atheist" as their religion. Secular Humanism, Freethought, Wicca, Neopaganism, and all the rest have their own symbols that could make fine bumper stickers if one were so inclined. I still smile a little when I see a car with a Darwin fish because I know the person inside probably has a lot in common with me, but I do wish they'd choose another symbol.
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Post by Cerin »

Hi Dave_LF, good to see you. :)

Forgive me being a bit dense, but were you saying above that you were part of the target demographic being a heathen, and that the fish was mocking those who believe in evolution? Or were you still identifying yourself with the Christian demographic (being that you started out that way), and thinking it mocked Christianity?

Oh, wait. I think you mean that the 'target' of the Darwin fish are the 'heathen' who will chuckle at it, but that it's mocking Christianity?

:oops: :D

What struck me when reading about the fish is whether people would find it similarly amusing if a different religious symbol were used in like manner. The Star of David, for example, or perhaps an image of the Buddha (not sure if that is quite as parallel an example).
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vison
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Post by vison »

I don't think of "the fish" as primarily or originally a "Christian" symbol. "The Cross", yes. I would see it as disrespectful of Christianity if someone made fun of a cross or crucifix in some way.

As for the fish, well, fish belong to me, too. Fish have had many special meanings in various cultures over the centuries (still do) and I don't see, myself, why using it in these ways is disrespectful of anyone.

However, I dislike such car ornaments on principle, as I dislike personalized license plates or all the bumper stickers of the world. I laugh if they're funny but they irk me just the same. I'm bemused and somewhat annoyed that so many people feel the urge/need/desire to announce their religious or political or philosophical attitudes and beliefs by putting "signs" on their cars. I don't think it should be outlawed or banned, mind you. It's just not my thing. :)
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Post by Cerin »

vison wrote:As for the fish, well, fish belong to me, too. Fish have had many special meanings in various cultures over the centuries (still do) and I don't see, myself, why using it in these ways is disrespectful of anyone.
But of course, it wasn't just an image of a fish. It was the image of the fish used as a Christian symbol (the outline with the greek letters inside) that was being referenced.

As for bumper stickers, I wouldn't use one, yet I think they can add some amusement when one is waiting tediously in traffic. They can also give one a clue as to which cars one would prefer not to tangle with. :D
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

I've seen little metal plates like that with the Christian fish swallowing the Darwin thingy.

I dislike the Darwin footed fish because it just strengthens the false idea that you have to choose between Christianity and science.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by Ethel »

Primula_Baggins wrote:I dislike the Darwin footed fish because it just strengthens the false idea that you have to choose between Christianity and science.
Yes. Good point. Generally speaking, I'm opposed to even the humorous and kindly meant alteration of sacred symbols. It's such a thumb in the eye of believers.

I hope this isn't offensive, but I'd be very curious about how you and Cerin feel about the Christian fish being used in advertising. I often see it in ads in the newspaper or yellow pages. I tend to find it offensive because it seems to me that they are attempting to trade on their religion to make money: "Choose us because we're Christian like you!" But perhaps I misread the motivation. Perhaps it's simply intended as testimony. What do you think?
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Post by Erunáme »

Could someone explain the Christian fish symbol to me?
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Post by Ethel »

This explanation seems to cover the basics:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_symb.htm
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Post by Cerin »

Ethel wrote:I tend to find it offensive because it seems to me that they are attempting to trade on their religion to make money: "Choose us because we're Christian like you!" But perhaps I misread the motivation. Perhaps it's simply intended as testimony. What do you think?
When I was newly saved and positively burning with the passion and joy of it, I put the fish in the upper corner of a resume. It had nothing to do with money, just with the desire to identify that aspect of myself. 'For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ.'

I didn't get the job. :D
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vison
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Post by vison »

And here are the Google ads again for "Religion Run Amok"!!!!

I dunno. :scratch:

I am beginning to think Google is Spawn of Satan. :D
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Post by Jnyusa »

Yes, when symbols are on cars I tend not to like them, even if they reflect my point of view. I think it's because the person inside the car is anonymous. It can't be a profession of personality when it's on a car; it can only be a kind of tally presented to the rest of the world.

The one bumper sticker that I actually gave out to all my friends, and gave out here with every sale I made at a flea market when I was doing flea markets was a sticker a friend of mine had printed up at his own expense.

"God Bless the Whole World. No Exceptions."

When I see it on cars around town it does still make me smile.

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Post by Dave_LF »

Cerin wrote:Oh, wait. I think you mean that the 'target' of the Darwin fish are the 'heathen' who will chuckle at it, but that it's mocking Christianity?
Right; I'm the sort of person the fish is marketed toward, but I dislike it because it's derisive and imitative (and for the other reasons I mentioned). While I was in (Christian) college, I had a bumper sticker that said "the religious right is neither". I needed the outlet then, but I eventually took it down for similar reasons. It felt too much like picking a fight with strangers.

The icthus fish, like the cross itself, is an ancient pagan religious symbol in a different rotation. For whatever reason, the human mind seems to come up with the same icons again and again (the swastika is another good example).
And here are the Google ads again for "Religion Run Amok"!!!! I dunno. Confused I am beginning to think Google is Spawn of Satan.
Firefox + Adblock = no more Google ads. :D
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Post by narya »

Ethel wrote: Alert about the rest of this post - it's about other eerie things that happened around the time of my brother's death. I thought Maria and narya might find it interesting, but I suspect a lot of others might not - hence the alert. It's long, too, because there was a LOT of strange stuff.
The whole world is connected if you look hard enough. But most of those interesting connections are ignored because we go through life not looking for them. Sometimes, I hear a Bible quote that is just what I needed to hear. But really, I've read that quote dozens of times. It wasn't until I was stuck behind a particular door and rummaging around in my mind for a way through the door, that I noticed the quote was a key. I don't consider such coincidences to be supernatural, just rare lucid moments.
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vison
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Post by vison »

Lucid is a word I am very fond of. I would like to have lucid thoughts.

When I was younger I was able to plan my dreams ahead of time. This is called "lucid dreaming" and it is a lovely gift. I no longer have it.

Everything is connected because everything is connected. It has to be, when you stop to think about it. But you mustn't, I think, make too much of it, since it only means what you want it to mean and what it means to you it might not -- probably won't -- mean that to me.

Once the atoms that are my fingernails were part of a supernova. Once my eyelashes were carried in waves to the shore of some fabulous planet with red skies and inhabited by tall, graceful creatures evolved from birds. Once my heart was part of an interstellar craft caught in a black hole, and as the craft stretched and broke up, the various atoms drifted for eons until they fell as meteor dust over Gondwanaland.

I bet the same kind of thing happened to everyone here.

Only you guys don't remember it.

eta: Evidently Impenitent does!!!

I think we all do, if we let ourselves. :D
Last edited by vison on Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Impenitent
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Post by Impenitent »

vison wrote:Only you guys don't remember it.
Speak for yourself. ;)
Mornings wouldn't suck so badly if they came later in the day.
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Mr. Prim the scientist once told me his theory that the universe, in all its interconnections and complexities, is so amazing that if we all truly understood it, we wouldn't need to tell stories. We could just talk about what is.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by Dave_LF »

A recent survey found that atheists are the most hated group in America. :(
University Of MN
From a telephone sampling of more than 2,000 households, university researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society.” Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry.
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