Discussion about joke about Gen. Petraeus

[yovargas]

I love it, JS. Unfortunately, my brother-in-law - who LOVES to constantly tell that kind of joke about every stereotype-able people ever (including gays, despite me asking him not to at least do those in front me, please ) - knows me too well for that to work, hehe.


( Anthy - )

[JewelSong]

IUnfortunately, my brother-in-law - who LOVES to constantly tell that kind of joke about every stereotype-able people ever... - knows me too well for that to work.

Well, sounds like your BIL is an equal opportunity type of guy, at least.

My strategy still might work if someone else did it. But if your BIL tells jokes about EVERYONE...well, might be a good idea just to smile sweetly and indulgently when he does so. Not all politically incorrect jokes have to be taken to task.

[Alatar]

What one shouldn't do as a reaction is be totally dismissive and condescending towards other people's feelings.

Is the implication here that this is how I behaved? Cause I don't see that I did that.

ETA: Its quite possible however. I regularly get told I'm much nicer in person than I come across online, which makes me wonder how much a jerk I obviously appear to be...

[anthriel]

Jewel, what great advice! I'll have to try that.

Unfortunately, you seem to think that me walking out was some sort of strategy, and it wasn't... PURE reflex. I just couldn't believe that was being said, and I sort of just automatically moved, for self-preservation, somehow. I just found myself in the next room.

I did have a pretty good conversation with my niece, nephew, and kids about it. They had varying reactions to my view of things, but at least they got to hear them.

[Erunáme]

What one shouldn't do as a reaction is be totally dismissive and condescending towards other people's feelings.

This is true.

I wonder why you would worry about this post, Eru.

Because there are ones before that I've gone to great care to try to not upset anyone has upset someone.

Coupled with the amazing, nearly life-changing advice from Frelga many years ago to ASK if something seems upsetting, I have hope that I can participate in discussions more, and feel some confidence that if someone is upset with something I write, they will ask me about it.

I suppose I should ask you about that status of Nick's that you liked as I found it an upsetting status.. but eh, sometimes it seems to be not worth it and potentially cause more rifts. That's why I often don't ask... here and in real life.. out of fear of making something worse.

[yovargas]

bunch of x-posts - this was directed at JS.

Not everyone, just all easily stereotyped minorities. He thinks it's cute; I think it's obnoxious as hell.

(As a total sidenote - even asides from "politically correctness" I totally don't find jokes based on stereotypes funny because they're so lazy! Even if I didn't find it insulting to call all Mexicans poor and criminals, I absolutely don't get why regurgitating such common stereotypes amuses people so much. And soooo much of our cultures humor is based on that - it feels like almost every character in comedies are based on some stereotype or another, which is so lazy and unimaginative. It feels like hearing the same joke being told over and over again. After a while, why do people still laugh?)

[anthriel]

I wonder why you would worry about this post, Eru.

Because there are ones before that I've gone to great care to try to not upset anyone has upset someone.

Me, too! Happens to me a lot, actually. I'm trying to figure out how to post better, but I don't always do a good job. I can quit trying, of course, and just lay low. That's worked for board harmony in the past.

Coupled with the amazing, nearly life-changing advice from Frelga many years ago to ASK if something seems upsetting, I have hope that I can participate in discussions more, and feel some confidence that if someone is upset with something I write, they will ask me about it.

I suppose I should ask you about that status of Nick's that you liked as I found it an upsetting status.. but eh, sometimes it seems to be not worth it and potentially cause more rifts. That's why I often don't ask... here and in real life.. out of fear of making something worse.

This is just the type of thing I WANT to know. I actually don't remember "liking" a specific update of Nick's (was there one about a cute cat? I can't remember), so definitely I didn't know it might upset you. If you would like to talk to me about it on PM, I would welcome that.

[Alatar]

As a total sidenote - even asides from "politically correctness" I totally don't find jokes based on stereotypes funny because they're so lazy! Even if I didn't find it insulting to call all Mexicans poor and criminals, I absolutely don't get why regurgitating such common stereotypes amuses people so much. And soooo much of our cultures humor is based on that - it feels like almost every character in comedies are based on some stereotype or another, which is so lazy and unimaginative. It feels like hearing the same joke being told over and over again. After a while, why do people still laugh?

Personally, I only find them properly funny when they subvert the stereotype or find a new angle. But people find funny what they find funny. You can't legislate people's sense of humour. I find those "Henri the Cat" videos pretty unfunny, but people here and on other boards think they're hilarious.

Do I think "Yo Mama's so fat" jokes are hilarious? No, but if you think they're side splitting I'm not gonna break down and sob about how overweight I am and how you should be more considerate and not hurt my feelings cause I posted in a thread about Weight Watchers. I'm fat, thats my issue, not yours.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

ETA: Its quite possible however. I regularly get told I'm much nicer in person than I come across online, which makes me wonder how much a jerk I obviously appear to be...

Generally speaking, I think you come across as a very nice (and interesting) person online, even though there are times that we have different perspectives about some things.

[axordil]

Humor is a strange, strange thing, a mix of joy and discomfort, occasional profundity...and offensiveness. Humor offends because it reveals things we do not wish revealed, about ourselves or others. Some of these things, perhaps, have no business being revealed; others simply force us to face aspects of people (including ourselves) we would rather avoid.

This episode touches on a number of sensitive areas, but the ability of men who are wealthy and powerful to discard their wives for "newer" models seems central. (To his credit, the general does not seem to have taken that course, but rather is attempting to salvage his marriage. I wish he and his wife the best of luck).

This particular bit of cultural ugliness isn't particularly funny if you're involved in it...but there are aspects that, from the outside, can provoke grim laughter. Many of the mothers, for example, at my son's school are, shall we say, exceptionally well-maintained.

In some alternate universe, they might all be doing it because of the sense of emotional well-being attached to being physically fit. Perhaps some are. Most are doing it, though, in an effort to head off their very successful husbands from looking for a trophy wife. It's an fact of life in these circles, rarely spoken of except in whispers.

I find this a sad comment on our society...and I find it strangely funny that the result is a sort of bland sameness among them. There's a template one could apply: smart, thin, athletic, blonde one way or another, active in support of the school while working part time in a job absolutely optional to maintaining the family's lifestyle. They're all attractive, in an interchangeable sort of way.

One feels tempted to wager that if their husbands did stray--and I use the subjunctive out of courtesy, not empirical observation--they might well look for someone whose imperfections and differences made them stand out.

That would be especially ironic and painful to see. It would also be funny, if framed in the right way. The trick of this kind of funny is not to limit yourself to having empathy for the person who's wronged, but to have it for the entire absurd situation.

In a perfectly just world, comedians would starve.

[yovargas]

Is the implication here that this is how I behaved? Cause I don't see that I did that.

ETA: Its quite possible however. I regularly get told I'm much nicer in person than I come across online, which makes me wonder how much a jerk I obviously appear to be...

Like V-dude, of course I generally think you're plenty nice and generally like you a lot. But this isn't the first time you've essentially come across as saying "yeesh, you people are so uptight, can't you take a joke, how annoying!" which can be a different way of saying "this doesn't bother me so it shouldn't bother you". Which I'd qualify as dismissive as condescending, in these instances.

eta - it occurred to me, looking over this thread, that most regular posters have done/said something that I found...unpleasant...at some point or another but that doesn't mean that I don't find most of ya'll to be terribly pleasant people to be around.

[anthriel]

ETA: Its quite possible however. I regularly get told I'm much nicer in person than I come across online, which makes me wonder how much a jerk I obviously appear to be...

Generally speaking, I think you come across as a very nice (and interesting) person online, even though there are times that we have different perspectives about some things.

Alatar, you have never, ever, EVER come across to me as a jerk, and that is just a cold hard fact.

You do come across as someone who has pretty passionate beliefs about a thing or two, and personally, I kind of like that.

One of the things that makes interacting with you so special to me, though, is your consistant tendency to keep the dialog open. I know I don't personally offer this same behavior, and I regret that. I wish I were more like you, actually.

[Alatar]

See, it cuts both ways. What you find as dismissive and condescending in my response is probably as annoying to you as "How can you say that, when you know how the poor woman must be feeling" is to me, cause that to me is Political Correctness gone mad and is frustrating and stifling.

[Lalaith]

As usual, I agree with anthy. You are not afraid to speak your mind, and I admire that, especially since I don't see you doing it in an antagonistic sort of way. You don't bully others with your views or words, and you are not easily offended.

I don't like you thinking you're a jerk. I've never thought that.

I also don't think Americans lack a sense of humor. Different cultures find different things funny. Besides, I'm not sure this board is an accurate reflection of American humor. I love you all, but there seems to be a higher proportion of people here who do get easily offended. I credit that to your high ideals, your passion for people, and your desire to provide a welcoming environment. (I'm speaking "your" in general, here, not to anyone specifically.) It's the tone of this board.

Ironically, this desire to have a genial, tolerant atmosphere sometimes makes others afraid to speak freely for fear of offending others, particularly over matters that don't always seem obviously potentially offensive. I like what Eru said, though, and I echo it. We should give each other the benefit of the doubt if something rankles us.

<shrug> I've accepted it as one of the quirks of this place, and I'm really fine with it. If I want to speak more freely about things (God, for instance), I'll go elsewhere. If I want to laugh at ribald jokes (yes, I know, it's shameful! ), I'll go elsewhere. If I want to post off-color humor or bad language, I'll share that with my best friend on our private Pinterest board or via email.

We here, in general, over-analyze things, and that's the nature of written communication. In real life, if Lord M had made his comment, I may not even have given it a second thought. If I had, I might have just said right then and there, "I don't think that's really funny." And, if the conversation had continued, I would have said what I said about it hitting too close to my own insecurities or something. Maybe a longer discussion would have resulted, but maybe not. More likely, we would have laughed and moved on! Maybe a pint of Guinness would have been involved, and there you go.

(Except I'm afraid to post this for fear of someone taking personally what I've said, where I've spoken generally. )

[yovargas]

x-post with Lali

Okay, I'll quote another reaction from this thread:

The comment rankled me. Maybe it's because I'm 40 and not young and pretty, and I'm imagining how Holly Petraeus must feel. ?? I don't know, but it didn't sit well with me.

Does that really strike you as "Political Correctness gone mad"? See, I'd qualify "Political Correctness gone mad" as people going well out of their way look for any possible, perceived imaginable offense. But you don't have to go very far to see the possible, perceived offense in this one. Not only is it not out of the way, it sits pretty damn close to home for a lot of the people - some of who are in the audience.

[WampusCat]

Given that this is a diverse group from various cultures, misunderstandings are bound to happen and offense will sometimes be taken. Since that is the reality, here is what I propose:

1. Post without overdue self-censorship, using kindness and regard for others as your standard. There can be no community if we are all reluctant to be ourselves, and HOF would be much lessened without the posts of Anthy and Eru and Alatar and yov and Ax and Voronwë and ... all of you.

2. If someone else's post upsets or offends you, speak up. I don't think anyone here sets out to upset others, but it happens. That's part of learning from one another, and it's much more poisonous to community for you to harbor a secret injury than for you to expose it.

3. If someone is upset at one of your posts, don't get defensive about it and accuse the other person of oversensitivity, political correctness, etc. You don't have to agree with the critique, but listen to it and acknowledge that your words caused unintended pain. If you want to explain what you meant or offer an apology, do so, but don't argue that the other person has no right to react as he or she did.

4. No matter whether you are the original poster or the one who is offended, let it go. Forgive. Accept that we come from different perspectives. Learn where the hot spots are and tread carefully there -- not self-censoring but with heightened awareness of the need to be clear and kind.

It's really just a matter of courtesy, honesty and love.

[Alatar]

Maybe I'm thick skinned, I dunno. If it offended someone, I can't tell them not to be offended. I can, however, think "Seriously? That offended you?". And yeah, maybe it is an Irish thing. "Slagging off" is affectionate here. I find it hard to fathom how people take personal offence at something so generic. And if they do, I'm inclined to think they should TTFU, and not be pandered too.

(No offence intended to whoever made to quoted remark)

[yovargas]

I don't know how to respond to that so I'm probably just gonna back off for the moment.

[Frelga]

I wonder if Mrs. Alatar shares your puzzlement or if perhaps she may be able to explain why remarking that it is only natural that a man would cheat on his aging wife with a slightly younger female, forgetting all his personal and professional duties, may not have come across as hilarious.

For the record, I found LM's comment more naive than anything.

Also for the record, I don't recall ever presuming to teach Anthy anything.

In conclusion, IAWWC.

[Alatar]

I just told her the joke. She laughed.

I explained the discussion and asked her to respond to you. Direct quote: "It was a joke! Don't be so flipping sensitive!"