The 2008 Presidential Campaign (was Obama Phenomenon 2)

[Ellienor]

I don't criticize Catholic believers for their beliefs, CG. I regret that instead of making their own informed choices, they make the choice made for them by their church.

I resent Catholic leaders taking a position in U.S. politics. I agree they have the right to criticize Democrats on abortion, but why not criticize Republicans on human rights (suspending Geneva Convention rights for "terrorists"), their positions against universal health care (social justice), tax cuts for the wealthy (social justice), and promotion of a war unsanctioned by our global allies that has led to the deaths of an estimated 100,000 Iraqis?

The Republican party is not pristine on Catholic doctrine. Neither are the Democrats. No earthly government entirely adheres to their doctrines and beliefs (well, except for the Vatican). So they should stay out of it.

[anthriel]

Okay. I am going to refrain from saying anything, because as a non-Catholic, I might be misinterpreting how the Catholic church interacts with its members.

[Lurker]

CG, you have to be Roman Catholic to understand where Ellie and I are coming from. It's difficult to explain without actually having brought up in the Church, double, if you got 13 years or more Catholic school education. In fact, I was talking to my Greek Orthodox friend who feels the same way, if you don't follow what the church says, then you better get out.

[Padme]

Unless the person tells the priest, how is the priest going to know who they voted for?


On a side note, having an Obama sign in your yard could possibly keep religious door knockers away.

[sauronsfinger]

I grew up Catholic - went to Catholic school for all 12 years and was even an altar boy from the 4th grade onwards. I went to church six days a week, sometimes seven, sometimes twice on some days. So I guess I know the secret handshake and can mouth off about this without being a bigot.

Back in the late 60's or early 70's, I was in Church one Saturday evening and we had a younger priest who was talking about the concept of civil disobedience as it applied to Viet Nam and the draft. He was not taking one side or the other but just explaining the concept and what the position of the Church was on it.

An older man stood up and started yelling at the priest in a loud manner. He said the priest had no right to talk about such things. Now I had been to Church thousands of times and never saw that happen before. Then somebody else stood up and said pretty much the same thing. So being a real loudmouth myself, I stood up and said the people were out of line and just let the priest talk like they do every time. Some people clapped and some people walked out. It was a pretty big deal since ours was the biggest and most established Catholic church in town. And my Dad gave me hell to pay for it when he heard about it.

What is my point?: I think the idea of Catholics as empty vessels just ready to be filled with the opinions of a priest is a false one. Sure, on some domga related matters, people defer to the church authority. But just look at birth control and Catholics and you know not everyone is following the party line.

A bishop can tell people how to vote - but once they get in the booth its all up to them. Yes, some sheep will blindly follow and if this report is true in Colorado, it will hurt Obama somewhat. But I do not think its a dealbreaker or going to decide the election unless it happens in many places all over this land.

But its still disgusting.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

One of the attorneys here (another closet D like me) and said his father, who is an ardent Catholic, just quit the church. Archbishop Chaput just made all the priests in his diocese (including Denver) to tell everyone that they cannot take communion if they plan to vote for Obama.

I would be very hesitant to believe that this is truly doctrine based on this kind of anecdotal evidence.

[sauronsfinger]

Here is an article about it with two different links at the end which may be useful.

Archbishop Chaput to Obama Catholics: If You're Serious Catholics, You'll Be Serious About Making Your Candidate Pro-Life, Not Editing My Words

By Peter J. Smith

DENVER, May 21, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com) - The Catholic Archbishop of Denver is warning a group called "Roman Catholics for Obama" that if they're serious about being faithful Catholics then they'll do more than simply take his words out of context to justify electing the virulently pro-abortion Democratic senator to the presidency.

Archbishop Charles Chaput dedicated his Monday column in the Denver Catholic Register to challenge the group's misrepresentation of his teachings on Catholics' pro-life voting responsibilities from a January letter called "10 Points for Catholic Citizens to Remember." Chaput revealed that he has more credibility on this issue as a Catholic, a bishop, and a former Democratic Party activist.

"Roman Catholics for Obama" posted the following quote from Chaput - a Catholic bishop known for his faithful adherence to the official teachings of the Catholic Church - giving the mistaken impression that Catholics could possibly vote for Senator Obama in the presidential election, despite his radical commitment to abortion:

"So can a Catholic in good conscience vote for a pro-choice candidate? The answer is: I can't, and I won't. But I do know some serious Catholics -- people whom I admire -- who may. I think their reasoning is mistaken, but at least they sincerely struggle with the abortion issue, and it causes them real pain. And most important: They don't keep quiet about it; they don't give up; they keep lobbying their party and their representatives to change their pro-abortion views and protect the unborn. Catholics can vote for pro-choice candidates if they vote for them despite - not because of - their pro-choice views."

"What's interesting about this quotation - which is accurate but incomplete - is the wording that was
left out," Chaput responded in his column. Roman Catholics for Obama had deliberately edited out the last sentence of the quoted passage which read, "But [Catholics who support 'pro-choice' candidates] also need a compelling proportionate reason to justify it."

The passage following that sentence continued, "What is a 'proportionate' reason when it comes to the abortion issue? It's the kind of reason we will be able to explain, with a clean heart, to the victims of abortion when we meet them face to face in the next life - which we most certainly will. If we're confident that these victims will accept our motives as something more than an alibi, then we can proceed."

Roman Catholics for Obama says on its website that Obama is a candidate that best represents Catholic social teaching and he "will look for common ground in addressing some of the most pressing needs of our time -- among them alleviating poverty, protecting the environment, making peace and, we believe, creating a culture of life."

The group does not explain "how" a President Obama would create "a culture of life," when he is very pro-abortion and has gone to pains to get voters to conceive of him as more abortion-savvy than his opponent Sen. Hillary Clinton.

Instead the group says that "the call to embrace a culture of life often leaves us with a voting dilemma, as it is the rare candidate who adopts all of the positions that would best lead to such a culture."

"After faithful thought and prayer, we have arrived at the conclusion that Senator Obama is the candidate whose views are most compatible with the Catholic outlook, and we will vote for him because of that -- and because of his other outstanding qualities -- despite our disagreements with him in specific areas."

"I'm familiar with this reasoning," said Chaput. "It sounds a lot like me 30 years ago. And 30 years later we still have about a million abortions a year. Maybe Roman Catholics for Obama will do a better job at influencing their candidate. It could happen. And I sincerely hope it does, since Planned Parenthood of the Chicago area, as recently as February 2008, noted that Senator Barack Obama "has a 100 percent pro-choice voting record both in the U.S. Senate and the Illinois Senate."

Chaput said he had worked for the presidential campaign of Bobby Kennedy as a young seminarian in 1968, and as a priest in 1980 he supported the reelection efforts of President Carter. Although Chaput knew Carter was "soft on permissive abortion" he justified supporting him because Carter was not "aggressively 'pro-choice.'"

"I believed he was right on so many more of the "Catholic" issues than his opponent seemed to be," admitted Chaput about himself then. "The moral calculus looked easy. I thought we could remedy the abortion problem after Carter was safely returned to office."

"In the years after the Carter loss I began to notice that very few of the people, including Catholics,who claimed to be 'personally opposed' to abortion really did anything about it. Nor did they intend to," continued Chaput. Chaput described "personal opposition" to abortion for the past 30 years as "little more than pious hand wringing and a convenient excuse" and said he could not name a single "pro-choice" Catholic politician, who has ever taken sustained public steps to discourage abortion and save unborn lives.

"In the United States in 2008, abortion is an acceptable form of homicide. And it will remain that way until Catholics force their political parties and elected officials to act differently."

"Changing the views of "pro-choice" candidates takes a lot more than verbal gymnastics, good alibis and pious talk about "personal opposition" to killing unborn children," he said. "I'm sure Roman Catholics for
Obama know that, and I wish them good luck. They'll need it."

Read Archbishop Chaput's column:
http://www.archden.org/images/Archbisho ... spaperColu...

Read Roman Catholics for Obama's verbal gymnastics on Obama building a "culture of life":
http://www.romancatholicsforobama.com/

[Lurker]

Thanks SF. I didn't believe my cousins when they told me that over the phone. (They are not from Colorado, mind you. You'll be surprised where they are from. ) They think it's a nationwide campaign, their opinion not a fact.

I don't find it disgusting. The Church has always been like that, so I was expecting this to happen eversince Palin was choosen as VP. That's why I was just waiting for a phone call from my relatives south of the border to confirm what I've always thought was going to happen eventually. In fact what Obama said about people clinging to their religion and guns just made them not vote for him at all.

[Holbytla]

Born and raised a Catholic. Married in the Catholic Church. Kids all attended CCD and met all of their sacraments to date.
I've since dropped out. I couldn't take what I perceived to be cover-ups, lies and hypocrisy any longer.

This stance by the church surprises me not at all. Far and away, the abortion issue reigns supreme in the church. They will compromise themselves on just about any belief so long as the candidate is anti-abortion.

To the church, this is not a political issue at all, but a social one. It means nothing to them that this is about a presidential race or whatever other aspects are involved. Abortion is the worst of the worst for them and they will have a zero tolerance policy towards it. If it means preaching from the bully pulpit, they will do just that.

[Cenedril_Gildinaur]

I don't criticize Catholic believers for their beliefs, CG. I regret that instead of making their own informed choices, they make the choice made for them by their church.

I resent Catholic leaders taking a position in U.S. politics. I agree they have the right to criticize Democrats on abortion, but why not criticize Republicans on human rights (suspending Geneva Convention rights for "terrorists"), their positions against universal health care (social justice), tax cuts for the wealthy (social justice), and promotion of a war unsanctioned by our global allies that has led to the deaths of an estimated 100,000 Iraqis?

If I recall correctly, the War on Terror has been condemned by the Catholic Church, including a giant snub when Pope Benedict refused to eat dinner with Bush in spite of being invited to do so.

As for social justice, they're much too clear thinkers to believe that UHC is any sort of social justice.

The Republican party is not pristine on Catholic doctrine. Neither are the Democrats. No earthly government entirely adheres to their doctrines and beliefs (well, except for the Vatican). So they should stay out of it.

I would think that religious leaders have a moral duty to make moral announcements about social issues.

[Ellienor]

I would think that religious leaders have a moral duty to make moral announcements about social issues.

Absolutely.

Refuse communion to people who will vote the "wrong" candidate?

Reprehensible.

[sauronsfinger]

Remember that line fron Palin on Wednesday about the luxury jet. And not coincidently the CEO of Ebay was there to bask in her glory. Nice plug.

"I put it on Ebay" she told the crowd. Turns out that it did not sell on Ebay.

Jet Palin posted on eBay didn't sell there

Mercury News
Article Launched: 09/04/2008 09:13:05 PM PDT


Ebay got a huge plug Wednesday night when, trying to depict herself as a tight-fisted reformer, GOP vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin said she put an Alaska state jet on eBay.

But the Westwind II jet never sold on eBay.

According to PolitiFact, the plane, bought by her Republican predecessor whom she beat in 2006, was listed for sale three times on the San Jose internet auction giant. But no one ever met the minimum bid. The plane was listed with an asking price of $2.5 million in 2007. The state had paid just under $2.7 million for it in 2005.

Finally, the state turned to an aircraft broker, who sold the jet to an Alaskan businessman for $2.1 million.

And her educational background is certainly unique.

Palin's college experience: 5 schools in 6 years before graduating with journalism degree
By Nicholas K. Geranios
Associated Press
Article Launched: 09/04/2008 03:23:46 PM PDT


— Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin attended five colleges in six years before graduating from the University of Idaho in 1987.

Federal privacy laws prohibit the schools from disclosing her grades, and none of the schools contacted by The Associated Press could say why she transferred. There was no indication any of them were contacted as part of the background investigation of Palin by presidential candidate John McCain's campaign.

"Our office was not contacted by anyone," said Tania Thompson, spokeswoman for the University of Idaho in Moscow.

Palin, the governor of Alaska, was born in Idaho. Her family moved when she was only a few months old to Alaska, where she was raised.

She began college at Hawaii Pacific University, a private, nonsectarian school in Honolulu. She attended only as a freshman during the fall of 1982, school spokeswoman Crystale Lopez said.

Then known as Sarah Louise Heath, she was in the business administration program as a full-time student, Lopez said.

"We're trying to track down someone who knew her," Lopez added.

From Hawaii Pacific, Palin transferred to North Idaho College, a two-year school in Coeur d'Alene, about 30 miles east of Spokane. She attended the college as a general studies major for two semesters, in spring 1983 and fall 1983, spokeswoman Stacy Hudson said.

"We were not able to track down club affiliations or anything,"

[Voronwë the Faithful]

The latest Gallup daily poll has Obama up by 4 points. That's down a few points from his high, but still represents a net gain of 6 points from before the conventions, when he was down by 2. It will be interesting to see in the next few days whether McCain continues to get a bump, returning the race to where it was before the conventions, or whether it stabilizes at roughly this point.

[ToshoftheWuffingas]

Just think of all the wrapping that would be needed.

[anthriel]

"I put it on Ebay" she told the crowd. Turns out that it did not sell on Ebay.

I don't understand why this point is important. She did put it on eBay.

I think it was meant to illustrate a working man's solution, putting the unneeded item on eBay. It was kind of a funny image, too. A luxury jet on eBay!

She didn't say it sold on eBay, and, as it turned out, it didn't. I ask in all honesty: why is this point important?

[sauronsfinger]

I am not saying it is. Just trying to give people more details involving stories they only partialy are aware of.

Information is a good thing Anthriel.

[sauronsfinger]

With the party conventions over, hopefully we can emerge from Wonderland and back to the reality of the current day USA. A real country with real people facing real problems. It sure would be nice if our real politicians tackled these real issues head on.

Here is just the latest example of major news that seems to be lost in all the rhetoric about Al Queda, corrupt teacher unions, small town values, the folly of community organizers and cross country snowmobile races.

US Aug payrolls fall 84,000; unemployment up to 6.1 pct, highest level in 5 yrs
09.05.08, 9:52 AM ET

WASHINGTON (Thomson Financial) - The US unemployment rate rose to its highest level in nearly five years in August as the economy shed jobs for the eighth consecutive month, led by huge losses in the manufacturing, service and retail sectors, the Labor Department said today.

The economy lost 84,000 jobs in August, more than the 75,000 lost jobs economists polled by Thomson Reuters IFR Markets were expecting.

The economy has now lost 605,000 jobs since January. Economists have said the economy needs to create about 100,000 jobs each month to keep up with new workers, but with August's numbers, the economy has now averaged a monthly loss of about 23,500 jobs over the last 12 months.

Labor downwardly revised June and July payrolls by 58,000, for a cumulative two-month total of 160,000 jobs lost.

The unemployment rate, taken from a separate survey of households, rose sharply to 6.1% in August, the highest level seen since September 2003. Economists were expecting unemployment to rise to 5.8% from the 5.7% reported in July.

The official unemployment rate only includes workers who are actively seeking a job.

The labor force participation rate, which includes the number of working-aged people with jobs, was unchanged at 66.1%.

Services jobs are usually a major factor in job gains, but 27,000 jobs were lost in this sector in August, the largest job loss seen in 5 years. Service-sector jobs have declined for the last three months.

Construction jobs fell once again, by 8,000, and manufacturing jobs lost 61,000, the largest drop since July 2003. Manufacturing jobs have not increased in 26 months. Retail jobs lost 19,900, and August was the ninth straight month of job losses in this sector.

Government added 17,000 jobs in the month and education/health services added 55,000.

I am hoping and praying the the upcoming four debates can return both campaigns to a thorough discussion of major policy isses. The heavy emphasis on biography and personal narrative is done at the expense of honest discussion of the problem and issues before the American people.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

While I thoroughly agree with you that the campaign should be about a discussion of the issues, the fact of the matter is that a focus on the issues benefits the Democrats (particularly with the bad economic news) while a focus on biography and personal narrative benefits the Republicans (particularly with McCain and Palin having compelling personal narratives, and Obama being, well, different). So one can not blame the Republicans for wanting to keep the focus on the latter. After all the goal is to win.

[Primula Baggins]

That's one reason I hope the debates are firmly focused on issues, not personalities. I wish I had more faith in the news organizations that are running them.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Who will be moderators? Do we know that yet?