The Music of the LOTR Films/Rarities Archives: Late 2009

[Primula Baggins]

If that list is official, it needs a good copyedit. Just sayin'.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Ah, you mean the FOTR-ending redux. FOTR ends with camea pans up to show Mordor -- the hobbits have a Long Ways To Go Yet. TTT ends with ... camera pans up to show Mordor -- the hobbits have a Long Ways To Go Yet.

Maybe they should have called it "Still a long ways to go yet."

[TheTennisBallKid]

Éowyn has three themes, all of which are intricately interrelated. One of the themes applies to just her, two apply to her relationships with other characters. They all share material in common, but are very specifically applied in the film. Watch carefully to see where these themes appear. Or, wait for the Annotated Score – that’ll walk you through each iteration.

....


Hi everyone,

Whoah, you’ve all been busy. Sorry for my absence. Yes, I’ve been working on the Annotated Score, did some work for composer Mychael Danna, did a quick interview with Danny Elfman and assembled a Film Score Monthly Podcast. It’s been busy around here. I’m going to start answering questions right now and will update the file until I fall asleep. I’ll finish the rest tomorrow. In the meantime, please feel free to check out the Podcast, if you’re Elfman-inclined.
http://media20a.libsyn.com/podcasts/fsm ... st_016.mp3

Ok, keep your eyes here, I’ll keep updating for a while.

-Doug


*****
>>>Do all three of Éowyn's themes appear in TTT then? I know there's also the material for her and Merry in ROTK.>>>

I should be more specific here. Éowyn has three themes in TTT. The Merry and Éowyn material doesn’t come into play here yet, obviously. So yes, then, all three Éowyn themes are in TTT.


>>>The other major unused pieces on the OST being the opening of Forth Eorlingas, the alternate arrival of Shadowfax, the alternate in Taming of Sméagol and the middle section of Breath of Life (intended for "Arwen's Fate"?)>>>

These are other major pieces you’re already aware of. They’re really just a taste however.

>>>There's a theme specifically for Éowyn and Théoden? And yet another thing that's new to me.
But there can't be major differences between those three themes? Don't they all start with that perfect fifth leap?>>>

They’re different enough to be notably separate.

>>>About the "Wonderment of Treebeard": I noticed that in Treebeard's scenes, there's some kind of electronic- sounding drone in the background, which sounds somewhat like a very distorted flute. Is there some connection to the score?>>>

That’s sound effects, not score. There are no electronic instruments anywhere in the LOTR scores.

>>>The music during Gandalf's conversation with Aragorn strongly reminds me of Gandalf's first scene with Denethor in ROTK. I suppose there's some connection ... ?>>>

No, there’s a much more specific connection than just that.

>>>Something I've mentioned to Doug in the past was about many of us "LotR score Joes" getting together with Mr. Shore, Mr. Adams, and all of those that have worked on the CR project to celebrate. This might seem very unlikely, but it's a good idea that could happen if many are interested and work together to make it happen. This would be once RotK CR/book has been released. This would be a GREAT opportunity to recognize all of those people that have worked so hard that aren't receiving the amount of recognition that they should. We would be able to meet them and find out just how they've contributed to the whole thing. We could have discussion time, hang out time, food time , etc. I like the idea. What about you-uns?>>>

If you’re interested in setting up something like this, I’d suggest you consider working through theonering.net. They’ve got considerable experience setting up things like this.

>>>The theme when Gandalf talks to Aragorn is also appearing in the opening scene when they climb down with the elven rope. You can actually hear it in the EE scene menu (of that scene)>>>

The Elven Rope music to which you’re referring contains the Evil Times theme, which is similar and related to the music used in the Gandalf / Aragorn scene, but a separate theme.

>>>And a good one for Doug:
In the FOTR EE version if you play it with commentary (the one with Howard Shore) you will hear Howard refer to the History of the Ring theme, as a Gondor theme.>>>

I think Shore was sort of thinking double meta here… so to speak. I think he originally conceived of the History theme as a theme that could have potentially been written by Gondorians about the History of the Ring. He largely moved out of that mode of thought as he progressed through the series, but I think this was his starting off point.

>>>No but really, at that price I too wonder what wonderful extra gems will packed into this box set!>>>

Ok, here’s one where I’ll admit to being stumped. I don’t know where the price comes from… though, to be honest, I don’ really know where the price came from on the original release. I think the label sets it, so I’m nowhere near that picture.

Unless the higher price could simply be the effect of rising gas prices?

>>>I have a question. Could someone identify the musical piece that plays on Disc 1, Track 1 of the complete recordings from 3:32 to 3:52? This is the score for the scene when Isildur cuts the One Ring from the hand of Sauron ending in the Dark Lord's physical destruction. It has that repeating phrase that was heard earlier when Sauron forges the One Ring and later on in the film when Boromir trys to take it from Frodo. There is also another theme playing that sounds like Aragon's. Am I on the right track? I don't remember reading about this in the liner notes, maybe I'm mistaken. It's become one of my favorite pieces of music in the score. Thanks!>>>

That’s the good ol’ down-and-back-up shape… which is contained in any number of LOTR themes. I think that’s addressed the FOTR Annotated material.

>>>But gas prices are going down!... and this is a 25% increase in the price over "Fellowship"!! OK, Doug, put on your PR hat and reassure us that this price is not just due to our increased demand!! ;-)>>>

I would tend to doubt that pretty severely. I don’t think Warners monitors this thread while hungrily rubbing its palms together. At least I hope not!

And since it’s already here for the taking… yes, the track list below is accurate. Most of the names come directly from Tolkien’s writing, from the DVD chapters or from the film’s dialogue. And just to be nice, I’ve broken it up properly for each disc.

Tracklist:
1. Glamdring
2. Elven Rope
3. Lost In Emyn Muil
4. My Precious
5. Uglúk's Warriors
6. The Three Hunters
7. The Banishment Of Éomer
8. Night Camp
9. The Plains Of Rohan
10. Fangorn
11. The Dead Marshes
12. Wraiths On Wings
13. Gandalf The White
14. The Dreams Of Trees
15. The Heir Of Númenor
16. Ent-draught

17. Edoras
18. The Court Of Meduseld
19. Théoden King
20. The King's Decision
21. Exodus From Edoras
22. The Forests Of Ithilien
23. One Of The Dúnedain
24. The Wolves Of Isengard
25. Refuge At Helm's Deep
26.: The Voice Of Saruman
27. Arwen's Fate
28. The Story Foretold
29. Sons Of The Steward
30. Rock And Pool
31. Faramir's Good Council

32. Aragorn's Return
33. War Is Upon Us
34. Where Is The Horse And The Rider?
35. The Host Of The Eldar
36.: The Battle Of The Hornburg
37. The Breach Of The Deeping Wall
38. The Entmoot Decides
39. Retreat
40. Master Peregrin's Plan
41. The Last March Of The Ents
42. The Nazgûl Attack
43. Théoden Rides Forth
44. The Tales That Really Matter
45. Long Ways To Go Yet

Now, to be honest, there are a few “featuring…” subtitles missing here, but I’ll leave those to the spies among you to discover!

>>>Shouldn't "Gollum's Song" be at the end there...or maybe it is included in the last track.>>>

Gollum’s song is contained within “Long Way To Go…” That’s one of the “Featuring…” that’s missing.

>>>-----Would you recommend me to buy the first single disc releases, for sake of different music?>>>

Depends on how much of a completeist you are. As was the case with Fellowship, there will be a few seconds of music on the OST that will not be on the boxed set… only because the OST presented an early version of something that was later revised. Shadowfax’s appearance springs to mind.

>>>----- Doug, you mention here that we will eventually get non-final versions of the music, do you mean in the supplementary/rarities disc(possibilities)/s?>>>

That is what I’m referring to, yep.

>>>-----Doug, another thing, I know we are all very excited about the up and coming release, and we know (or at least I do) that you can't give out too much information, but would you be able to (well this might sound a bit ridiculous, and unjustifiable), lets just say, if you know the exact time, and can't give it out, by all means don't ruin your career, but as you say it is longer than TFOTR:CR, each time that you post some information would it be possible to tease and excite the readers by uping the time, by saying that it is longer than a specific time????? (lets say Post 1 - more than 180:30, Post 2 - more than 181:30 etc etc), and yet still leaving a huge gap between the time you post, to the time that it actually is.>>>

This is a great idea, but to be honest, with my schedule as it is right now, I’d probably do this so sporadically that it wouldn’t accomplish anything other than making people irritated with me.


>>>Question for Doug - though I may have asked this a long time ago and had you answer it. Do you know if Howard Shore wrote music for the 'Second Council of Galadriel' scene when it was still in the film? 'The Leavetaking' is the cue that most clearly corresponds to what material from that sequence ended up in the final film... but did he score the sequence in its earliest version - when Arwen and Elrond go to Lothlórien? I ask this because I've heard references to music that was originally written for a scene where Arwen looks into the 'Mirror of Galadriel'.>>>

To the best of my knowledge, neither scene was ever scored.

>>>If those 45 tracks are correct, then I would guess that disc 1 will have 15 tracks, disc 2-17 tracks, and disc 3-13 tracks. We'll find out soon. It's good to know that Shore's website is finally "up and running". Yay! I'm still working on trying to figure out Éowyn's themes/Rohan material. I thought there were only 3 or 4 themes for Rohan, but I think there are about 6 or 7...?>>>

In TTT there are… sort of four-and-a-half Rohan themes total.

>>>I'm scared about something..."they're coming...no...No!...NOOOOO!!!"........uh, just kidding (about that ^ ). Seriously though, I love the "nice ending" to the OST track 16 - Forth Eorlingas. I hate the film version where (because of the editing, of course) the "ending" of tr16 goes immediately to the "Flooding" music without finishing. Now, I'm BASING this on the 45-long track list, ASSUMING it's the right one. Track 43 to 44, by name, sounds like there's no "Flooding" music, but it's obviously there, AND, it "has" to be at the end of 43, not the beginning of 44. Please reassure me that on the CR, the music going from the Helm's Deep battle to the "Flooding" will NOT sound like the film version. I'm...scared...*sniff*...help me Doug Adams, you're my only hope... I'm hoping there's some more "transitional" music or something there that sounds good. I'm sure there is.>>>

>>>Yes. These are exactly the kind of things I had hoped the CRs would "fix". Obviously, FOTR didn't have much of those since it's a linear movie, but TTT and ROTK have several storylines, and the edits that were made are hopefully not on the CRs.>>>

The “Forth Eorlingas” ending you hear on the OST is a created ending, meaning it only exists through editing. You are not really hearing the end of the composition, you are hearing something that was edited together artificially create an ending. (You can sort of tell if you listen to the beginning of the suspended cymbal hit…) It’s done incredibly well, and it suits the needs of the OST’s shorter running time, but it is not what Howard Shore composed.

The idea behind the CR project is most certainly to present what Shore composed. There will be no messing around with the order of the passages, because that’s pretty contrary to the project’s purpose. Shore wrote the music to the end of the film in *nearly* the same order it appears in the finished film. There was a little tweaking for a few of the Osgiliath cutaways, and tweaks have been restored to Shore’s original vision for the CR. But don’t expect someone to go slicing away to create a recording in which all the Isengard scenes are grouped together, all the Helm’s Deep scenes are grouped together and all the Osgiliath scenes are grouped together. The shape of Shore’s composition very carefully reflects what’s happening on screen… his transitions and balances were very intricately thought out, and there’s no desire to upset that with a bunch of harsh editing and artificial assembly. Personally, I think it’s absolutely amazing that Shore was able to delineate three different stories so clearly and dramatically – it’s a real juggling act. I would feel just awful if all that were tossed by the wayside for a gimmicky purpose.

>>>I wonder, in the ROTK there is an unused scene were Aragorn is wearing the Gondorian armor. Did Howard Shore score this scene? Because the Music in the TTT were Aragorn is wearing the Rohirrim armor in Helm’s Deep is Fantastic! Very dynamic and epic.>>>

The assembly on ROTK begins soon, so we’ll be ale to take a closer look at questions like that very soon!


>>>About the edits on TTT: all along I thought we would get the full pieces that were recorded and how they were recorded, not necessarily how they were split up or edited together in the film. At least that's what Doug and the press release promised all along, "the full pieces how they were recorded". And that would also include Forth Eorlingas with the clean ending.>>>

As you seen above, in this case, the “clean” ending is false ending. The CR will actually present, for the first time on CD, the ending as it was written and recorded.

Ok guys, that’s gonna do me in for the night. More tomorrow.

-Doug

I really like the way the discs are split up, I didn't like how the Moria sequence was spread over two CDs; here, none of the dramatic sections are broken up like that.




ttbk

[TheTennisBallKid]

Amazon ($75.98...if the price goes down between now and when they ship it -- which it will -- you'll get it at the best price.)
Barnes and Noble ($60.78; members: $54.70)
CD Universe ($56.37)
Moviemusic.com ($70.66)
Amazon.uk (£48.99)




ttbk

[TheTennisBallKid]

Amazon ($68.49)
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Hi everyone,

I’m pretty crushed for time tonight, so I’m probably only going to be able to get to a few questions on this go-round. Whatever I don’t cover tonight, I’ll get back to asap, deal?

>>>So Doug, will you tell us the name of one of the new themes that we PROBABLY don't know? >>>

Sorry, that crosses from info into content, so that’s not up for discussion at the moment, however…

>>>4.5 themes for Rohan, huh...Rohan, Éowyn's 3, and maybe that ascending motive that's occasionally used...? >>>

I will tell you that Éowyn’s third theme only plays in TTT once, so it doesn’t become notable as a theme until ROTK. However, since it’s so closely related to and clearly drawn from TTT material, it’s listed in the Two Towers’ liners/

>>>Half a Rohan theme ...
Do you mean that counterpoint melody underneath the main theme for Rohan (The Riders Of Rohan)?>>>

No, it’s a theme that relates both to Rohan and something else, musically speaking.

>>>A question for you Doug!
As your book will be released hopefully in the near future will there be material concerning the scoring process or is the book going to focus purely on the music. I mean are there any insights from the composer and director and delving into the recording sessions. I know that there is enough material in the music itself to fill a book but will there be any behind-the-scenes sort of stuff there.>>>

Yes, indeed. There while quite a bit that relates to the Making Of side of things.

>>>In FOTR:CR, track 8 (A Conspiracy Unmasked) from 4:49 - 5:00 (very strongly) and continuing uptil 5:30, which in the movie is Gandalf telling Frodo "You must leave. And leave quickly" there's this "theme" that plays along; which is repeated again in ROTK, when Gandalf tells Pippin "Peregrin Took, my lad, there is a task to be done. Another opportunity for one of the Shire-folk to prove their great worth!">>>

There’s something to this, but not quite what you have in mind. The ROTK notes will shed some light.

>>>Doug mentioned a long time ago that track 8 would be 2:54 long, and apparently some people found this info important enough to add to Wikipedia.>>>

I did? Hmm, don’t remember that. If I did say that, I think it may have been in jest, although it’s not far off at all.

>>>Guys, Doug - one more question that bothers me since the CR release:
when you compare the FOTR OST track 3, 01:37 the choir opening, and the same moment on FOTR CR, Disk 1, track 7, 06:23 - the choir on the CR is of a really low volume, even hardly to be noticed! Was it amplified for the OST or something went wrong during the CR mixing stage, what choir version is closer to the live performance? [Obviously, OST version sounds more powerful and majestic because of that boost.]>>>

As suggested in other posts, yes the choir was recorded separately from the orchestra, though this is generally how these things are done in recording sessions. In selected pieces of FOTR, there was an attempt made to better balance the choir and the orchestra, so that neither would totally dominate and so that they’d interact a bit more gracefully. As with anything, some people like that, some don’t.

>>>I just discovered a new little motif from Two Towers and was wondering if it is indeed acknowldged as a motif by Mr. Shore. It plays over the part in Two Towers when Frodo, Sam, and Gollum discover the Haradrim and the Olyphants in the Forests of Ithilien, just before they are captured by Faramir and his men. It starts at 1:43:26 on the TT EE. Is it considered a motif for the Haradrim and the Olyphants? This motif can also be heard on the OST on track 13 starting at 45 seconds (which plays in the film right when you see the Olyphants on screen). I also wonder if it is heard at any other moment in the films. If it is indeed a motif for the Haradrim and the Olyphants, then I would suspect to hear it in ROTK, but maybe its just a nice little danger motif only heard in the TT scene.>>>

This question gets asked a lot, and the answer is, no, it’s not really a theme. In that line Shore DOES set up a specific style of writing that pertains to the Mumakil, but the low string melody is not a recurring motive. In fact, it was only meant to play once in TTT – you hear it twice because of music editing. You’ll be hearing the music that was supposed to be there in the near future.

>>>Also, I know there is an ascending "motive" that is similar to Aragorn's theme. It's used when Éomer rides into Edoras with Theodred, when Gandalf and the 3 hunters ride up to Edoras, and when Théoden prepares for battle at Helm's Deep ("They will break upon this fortress like water on rock; Crops can be resown, homes rebuilt"; etc.) There may be more uses of this, I'm still listenin' for it (and anything else that gets my attention).>>>

See above for Éowyn discussion. As for this once…listen carefully to that Helm’s Deep scene… that’s actually a theme you already know, not a new one.

>>>Now, Doug, what I had mentioned before about some possible connection between Minas Tirith, Into the West, and the "Théoden's Old Age" motive, well, I'm wondering about that motive...It's used first when Théoden is grieving his son's death (on trumpet), when Gandalf tells Aragorn that Théoden will need Aragorn's help (just before Gandalf leaves Edoras), and when Aragorn and Théoden are riding to Helm's Deep and Théoden talks to him about Éowyn's father being killed, and "...doomed to wait upon an old man". Is this an actual motive? It consists of 4 notes, and it sounds similar to the first 4 notes of Minas Tirith and Into the West. Thanks.>>>

Similar, but not really a theme.

>>>I recently learned how to play a cymbal with a bow, and now I REALLY like the music when Frodo sees the Ringwraiths at Weathertop because bowed cymbals are used. Awesome writing!!! (To bad it's not in the film, but is on the CR )>>>

That’s a Shore specialty. It’s all over the Army of the Dead music… though if you really want to hear Shore go nuts with it, take a listen to Seven.

Ok, my brain is fried. More as soon as time allows!

-Doug

Soundtrack.net

Disc 1
1. Glamdring 3:50
2. Elven Rope 2:19
3. Lost in Emyn Muil 4:14
4. My Precious 2:56
5. Ugluk's Warriors 1:41
6. The Three Hunters 6:12
7. The Banishment of Éomer 3:54
8. Night Camp 2:50
9. The Plains of Rohan 4:14
10. Fangorn 5:13
11. The Dead Marshes 5:07
12. "Wraiths on Wings" 2:07
13. Gandalf the White 6:47
14. The Dream of Trees 1:54
15. The Heir of Númenor 6:50
16. Ent-draught 2:53
Total Time: 63:01

Disc 2
1. Edoras 4:34
2. The Court of Meduseld 3:10
3. Théoden King (feat. "The Funeral of Theodred" performed by Miranda Otto) 6:12
4. The King's Decision 2:07
5. Exodus of Edoras 5:42
6. The Forests of Ithilien 6:37
7. One of the Dúnedain (feat. "Evenstar" performed by Isabel Bayrakdarian) 7:13
8. The Wolves of Isengard 4:22
9. Refuge at Helm's Deep 3:59
10. The Voice of Saruman 1:11
11. Arwen's Fate (feat. "The Grace of the Valar" performed by Sheila Chandra) 3:58
12. The Story Foretold 3:58
13. Sons of the Steward 6:02
14. Rock and Pool 2:54
15. Faramir's Good Council 2:20
Total Time: 64:19


Disc 3
1. Aragorn's Return 2:11
2. War is Upon Us 3:35
3. "Where is the Horse and the Rider?" 6:15
4. The Host of the Eldar 2:50
5. The Battle of the Hornburg 2:52
6. The Breach of the Deeping Wall 3:03
7. The Entmoot Decides 2:06
8. Retreat (feat. "Haldir's Lament" performed by Elizabeth Fraser) 4:40
9. Master Peregrin's Plan 2:31
10. The Last March of the Ents (feat. Ben Del Maestro) 2:31
11. The Nazgûl Attack 2:45
12. Théoden Rides Forth (feat. Ben Del Maestro) 5:47
13. The Tales That Really Matter 12:01
14. "Long Ways to Go Yet" (feat. "Gollum's Song" performed by Emiliana Torrini) 8:05
Total Time: 61:12

Grand Total Time: 3:08:12

ttbk

[TheTennisBallKid]

Amazon.uk (£46.99)
Amazon ($60.99



ttbk

[Primula Baggins]

I'm curious, ttbk—why does the price keep creeping downward? On more "standard" CDs and DVDs, at most places, it stays at the same lower price for preorder and maybe the first week, then goes up. But here everybody seems to be shaving it down bit by bit.

[TheTennisBallKid]

Because they like to keep me in indecision about where to order it from?

I honestly couldn't tell you. Anymore than I could tell you why the "list price" is $15 higher, but they're seemingly going to end up selling it for about the same price as FOTR. Um...not that I'm complaining; discount away, good merchants...



ttbk

[TheTennisBallKid]

Hi guys,

Digging right in:

>>>About new TTT themes: isn't there a motif for Wormtongue? I'm sure I hear one, which is primarily played on lower strings. You can hear it when Grima appears for the first time. Also in his scene with Éowyn at Theodred's bed, and also in ROTK when he shows up on Orthanc.>>>

There IS, in fact, a Wormtongue theme, though it doesn’t appear exactly where you’ve noted. You can find the line twice in TTT.

>>>While were talking about themes and motifs, did anyone notice that a very loud brass theme (horn like) plays the moment Saruman & Grima go out in the balcony and see the 10.000 uruks? And then again in ROTK EE when Saruman dies and fall, the same theme (or motif) is played. Before ROTK EE I thought that the music in the TTT balcony scene were just Horns sfx, but now I thing that is a motif…Doug? Or anyone else?!>>>

I’m assuming here that you’re mentioning the very, very low and brassy rendition of the Isengard theme? This is, by the way, another piece on the CD where you’ll get a a good bit more music.

>>>About the oliphaunts: a while ago, Doug said there was no definitive motif for either the Haradrim or the mumakil, but the orchestration makes a connection.>>>

Yes sir, this is true.

>>>Another question for Doug. Will you be including analysis of the old themes and how they evolve in the TTT into your liner notes or perhaps into the Annotated score? I remember you saying in some point that the liners of all the sets relate to each other in this manner making references to each other.>>>

The liners will discuss all themes present in The Two Towers, returning and debuting.

>>>It was better in the Star Wars episode I, ultimate edition 2 disk, because there were 30-40 tracks in EACH disk! So you could have immediate access to any point
I was disappointed with the combined tracks in FOTR CC
Who makes these decisions? And Who makes the OST decisions?>>>

>>>If I remember some of Doug's posts in the pre-FOTR-EE fervor, one key word was "iPod-friendly.">>>

Well, I did say it was “iPod-friendly” (though I suppose that’s not necessarily a problem since technology has advanced so quickly and newer iPods now feature gapless playback), but the album wasn’t assembled this way *because* it was iPod-friendly. The album was assembled to make musical sense… the iPod factor was a happy byproduct. The FOTR tracks are longer because the tracks contain unbroken musical ideas. 30 seconds of “Keep It Secret, Keep It Safe” really doesn’t give you any sense of what that composition really is. This piece is contains one, unbroken musical thought that evolves over nearly nine minutes, so the track reflects that. The CD’s construction enforces the kind of listening required to properly take in the writing. I wouldn’t want to listen to:

Keep It Secret, Keep It Safe – Part I – The Party Speech
Keep It Secret, Keep It Safe – Part II – Talking to Gandalf
Keep It Secret, Keep It Safe – Part III – Leaving Bag End
Etc., etc., though Part X

…because that just doesn’t make any musical sense. The tracks on this set were designed as an extension of Howard Shore’s musical thought (which makes sense, since HS was behind the tracks as well). Now on TTT, because of the nature of the film, which was edited to tell several stories simultaneously, musical thoughts were often much more compact and self-contained, so you’re seeing more and shorter tracks. The end of the final disc features music where Shore was able to play through and connect all the storylines, so the tracks start to become longer. It’s always all about story. The film editing is drawn from Tolkien’s story, the score is drawn from the editing, the CD is drawn from the score.

So, that’s the thought process, anyway.

>>>Eh. That's if you're basing complexity off of leitmotives. There's plenty of Western music that's more interesting harmonically than the LotR trilogy.>>>

Musical complexity is a terrifically difficult thing to pin down. To what does it really refer? Harmonic complexity? Rhythmic complexity? Architectural complexity? Performance complexity? A combination of all these elements? What if a piece contains only one or two of these qualities? Ever try to play a piece by Steve Reich? These works can be insanely difficult to play because of their architecture… and because of the demands they make of the performers’ prolonged concentration… but harmonically, they’re not very dense. Rhythmically, they’re not built of wild polyrhythms or rampant meter changes. How about some of Ibert’s work which takes simple little dance tunes, but sets them in two keys at once? Is that harmonically complex, or just simple in duplicate?

I’d wager that complexity is more of a gestalt thing… a big picture consideration, if you will. But even at that, it’s subjective. Do I think Shore’s LOTR score is complex? Yes, I do… but it’s a different sort of complexity that the New Complexity, or the Free Improv schools tout… though Shore’s worked in both those voices as well. The LOTR scores use the orchestra in a very, very specific way, tell a dramatic story with very unique mannerisms, and balance more leitmotifs present in a single work than has any dramatic piece for centuries. And it does all this, incredibly consistently, for nearly 12 hours straight.

>>>You're all forgetting one thing:HS was paid to compose the music for the films.He wouldn't have made it if PJ had been a kiwi salesperson(for example).And i don't think that Wagner and HS are representative to (all of)Europe's(even Western one) musical culture.>>>

Wagner was paid, too. Beethoven had patrons, as did Mozart. Bach had the church. Modern composers are more nomadic, wandering from post to post, commission to commission, but they’re all paid. Believe it or not, all artists have this nasty habit where they like to eat a couple of times a day. Many have families. Some even have kids to put through college. Unless you’re driving trucks through the night and composing all day—which is kind of unlikely, although, Ives directed an insurance agency and was a hobbyist composer in his spare time, so it does happen—you’re going to need to be paid regularly for your work.

>>>I've read some other posts about Lord of the Rings and I'm a little bit confused now. Some people talk about a book, written by Doug. Is there more info about this, is it already published? Could you answer this, Doug? I would be so great to read a book from you about the score for Lord of the Rings>>>

The book look like it will be on shelves *around* the time of the ROTK release next year. The book will likely be the grand finale to the whole Music of LOTR experience, so the publishers are now really beginning to discuss specifics.

The book, in the main, already exists, but it’s on the hard drive right now. I’d say we’re looking in the neighborhood of 160 pages at the moment, though as we all know, layout can radically change all that. Stay tuned, I’ll keep you in the loop.

>>>I wonder what the chances are that for some future rerelease of LOTR, PJ will use the score as HS recorded it, and dispense with all the tracking and alterations we've discussed here.>>>

My guess is that we’ll never see such a thing officially, only because the work involved versus the potential audience would peg this as a pretty futile exercise. On the other hand, I’d bet by bottom dollar that we will eventually see someone from the fan community try this.

>>>Hey Doug, just a question for you (if you can answer it, otherwise ignore the following). WIll your book have an antiquated look like the annotated score? Will it be a hardcover/deluxe book? Not that I'll be able to afford it even if it is, but it'll be good to know its on the market.>>>

We haven’t looked at anything related to the cover design yet, so no word right now. I’m anxious to see, myself!

>>>maby you have answered a question like this before but i am curious to know if you know anything about TTT being released in other countries, for example, Australia.>>>

That’s not my corner of the production, so I really don’t know. Sorry!

>>>I just discovered a new little motif from Two Towers and was wondering if it is indeed acknowldged as a motif by Mr. Shore. It plays over the part in Two Towers when Frodo, Sam, and Gollum discover the Haradrim and the Olyphants in the Forests of Ithilien, just before they are captured by Faramir and his men. It starts at 1:43:26 on the TT EE. Is it considered a motif for the Haradrim and the Olyphants? This motif can also be heard on the OST on track 13 starting at 45 seconds (which plays in the film right when you see the Olyphants on screen). I also wonder if it is heard at any other moment in the films. If it is indeed a motif for the Haradrim and the Olyphants, then I would suspect to hear it in ROTK, but maybe its just a nice little danger motif only heard in the TT scene.>>>

>>>This question gets asked a lot, and the answer is, no, it’s not really a theme. In that line Shore DOES set up a specific style of writing that pertains to the Mumakil, but the low string melody is not a recurring motive. In fact, it was only meant to play once in TTT – you hear it twice because of music editing. You’ll be hearing the music that was supposed to be there in the near future.>>>

>>>There was an alternative there!? I suppose you mean that it’s going to be with the rarities discs (I don’t know if I shed it correctly)>>>

No, there’s not an alternate. In the film you hear edited music. On disc, you’ll hear the music that Shore wrote, without the editing.

>>>What about the music that it wasn’t on the OST, and it was then Changed in the EE version. For explain in ROTK when Aragorn charge with the army of the Dead it plays the Gondor theme with a heroic finale until Legolas climb the Mumak. In the EE version the Gondor theme is interrupted by scenes with Gothmog and Éowyn and then comes the heroic finale. I suppose that we will get the EE version, but what about the other version? And I am talking about all this kind of alternative tracks? There are going to be on the other Disks?>>>

This is a good question. I think that you’ll hear the EE versions of these compositions in the CR, and the Theatrical versions will be placed on a different release. This will also be an issue when Aragorn, dressed in his kingly robes, first sets out from Minas Tirith towards the Black Gate…

>>>Or what about the scene when the Nazguls come down on Minas Tirith and the choir that accompanies them?In the EE there was one shot that might have lenghtened the Ringwraith Theme:A Nazgûl klling gondorian soldiers on the main wall.It's just about 3-4 seconds(of music too) but it's still longer than the same choir piece from "The Fields of Pelennor".>>>

If a piece is simply expanded, you’ll hear the long all-inclusive version, of course. We’re looking at instances where Theatrical music was actually removed when the EE music came into play.

Ok, to end the speculation—and to correct a few typos that did not originate with the production, here are the correct track titles and running times for TTT: CR:

Disc One:
01 Glamdring 3:50
02 Elven Rope 2:19
03 Lost in Emyn Muil 4:14
04 My Precious 2:56
05 Uglúk's Warriors 1:41
06 The Three Hunters 6:12
07 The Banishment of Éomer 3:54
08 Night Camp 2:50
09 The Plains of Rohan 4:14
10 Fangorn 5:13
11 The Dead Marshes 5:07
12 "Wraiths On Wings" 2:07
13 Gandalf the White 6:47
14 The Dreams of Trees 1:54
15 The Heir of Númenor 6:50
16 Ent-draught 2:53

Disc Two:
01 Edoras 4:34
02 The Court of Meduseld 3:10
03 Théoden King Featuring "The Funeral of Théodred" performed by Miranda Otto 6:12
04 The King's Decision 2:07
05 Exodus From Edoras 5:42
06 The Forests of Ithilien 6:37
07 One of the Dúnedain Featuring "The Evenstar" performed by Isabel Bayrakdarian 7:13
08 The Wolves of Isengard 4:22
09 Refuge at Helm's Deep 3:59
10 The Voice of Saruman 1:11
11 Arwen's Fate Featuring "The Grace of the Valar" performed by Sheila Chandra 3:58
12 The Story Foretold 3:38
13 Sons of the Steward 6:02
14 Rock and Pool 2:54
15 Faramir's Good Council 2:20

Disc Three:
01 Aragorn's Return 2:11
02 War is Upon Us 3:35
03 "Where Is the Horse and the Rider?" 6:15
04 The Host of the Eldar 2:50
05 The Battle of the Hornburg 2:52
06 The Breach of the Deeping Wall 3:03
07 The Entmoot Decides 2:06
08 Retreat Featuring "Haldir's Lament" performed by Elizabeth Fraser 4:40
09 Master Peregrin's Plan 2:31
10 The Last March of the Ents Featuring Ben Del Maestro 2:31
11 The Nazgûl Attack 2:45
12 Théoden Rides Forth Featuring Ben Del Maestro 5:47
13 The Tales That Really Matter 12:01
14 "Long Ways to Go Yet" Featuring "Gollum's Song" performed by Emiliana Torrini 8:05

>>>"Gandalf The White" is actually 7 minutes long? Is there THAT much of unused material? Holy Cow!
And Wraiths On Wings is 10 seconds longer as well.

Now, time to dance the happy dance!

No, wait, save that for audio clips

"The Dead Marshes" is over 5 minutes? It's barely over 3 even in the extended cut!>>>

Now you can see why I’ve been so excited this whole time!

>>>7:58 longer than FOTR!!! When you consider the "padding" in FOTR (Plan 9 et al.) this is really quite extraordinary. Does anyone know how long FOTR would be without this "padding"? I guess this is a rather subjective thing, but it'd be nice to get an idea of exactly how much more HS composed music we're getting here.>>>

>>> To answer my own question, there appears to be 5:18 total Plan 9 music (Flaming Red Hair + Passing of the Elves) plus the Merry and Pippen singing. So by my best estimation (please correct me if I'm wrong) we are getting nearly 14 more minutes of HS composition in this release.>>>

I’m keeping this conversation because it does a better job of explaining the whole “deceptive running time” dilemma than I ever have. There’s a lot more Howard Shore music on this set than in FOTR.

>>>I just noticed the above tracks in Disc One had typos which I have corrected here.

Two of these are on the original www.soundtrack.net website and I hope they did not originate in the printed booklet that will come with the set!>>>

Nope, I think it was a combination of eager fingers typing an email to Dan from WB, and Dan’s lack of coffee in the original posting. No one worry… just the detritus of the quick-paced world of internet reporting. Dan fixed the typos elsewhere, I think.

>>>Great news.But only 8 minutes longer?At least each CD will be over an hour.So that's great.>>>

Please see above.

>>>A question for DOUG.....
Hello, hello, hello....last night mine very eyes viewed a film, and through the course of the film my ears heard things......things that be words, sounds......and music.
For the film my very eyes saw and ears heard was 'Julie Taymor's 1999 'Titus'', a most stunning film (reminding me of Terry Gilliam), featuring triumphant music by Elliot Goldenthal....my ears couldn't help but hear and my mind notice the similarities that sounded like Howard Shore's LOTR....for I know many notes from many composers may in someway sound similar, but my question to you is 'Do you know if Howard Shore was in anyway 'inspired'?(this may not be the right word), or I don't know how to put it,....in-any-way moved upon, that he somehow referenced it?(I know this is the wrong word, but my mind has lost its train of thought at this moment)?????????>>>

Nope, no Titus inspirations. Shore is quite a fan of Goldenthal (and was quite interested in his opera, Grendel, this summer), but that’s about the extent of it. Great score, though. Grendel was great too!

>>>Anyone noticed that on the box cover of The Lord Of The Rings: The Two Towers: The Complete Recordings, the focus on the Map of Middle Earth has now moved to Rohan?>>>

Very good catch! Yes, was intentional. I believe Alan Frey came up with the idea.

>>>Wow! Really great intricacy in there Doug. This has aroused my interest much, much more. Now I can't wait to see the inside>>>

I’m thrilled you like it, I think it’s brilliant myself! And I can say that without guilt, because it wasn’t my idea!

>>>I also came to the conclusion that a Symphony CD release wouldn't be really necessary. Though, didn't Howard Shore say that the symphony performance in Canada was recorded for a future release? I thought that's where the DVD material was drawn from.>>>

I’m sure that with so many creative people working through all these projects, something very special COULD be done with the LOTR Symphony. It’s just not on the plate at the moment. I honestly haven’t heard anything one way or the other, but anything’s possible, I suppose.

>>>Indeed, the symphony was filmed here at Montreal the year before last (or, Light, was it three years ago.?); this was the performance I saw. It was subsequently broadcast on RDI (I think), the French CBC television network. It was done with the Festival Lights orchestra and choir (I think is the name). The orchestra had a few violin-solo problems, the signing solos were less than par (especially the boy soprano, in the redemption of nature theme, for example). Nonetheless, it was remarkable to hear the symphony. I read some where long ago that Herr Shore wanted to publish the Complete Recordings with this video recording. In fact, I had assumed that the DVD which came with the FOTR:CR was this performance. Perhaps Mr. Adams can clarify?>>>

No the FOTR: CR DVD is an audio only presentation of the full FOTR score in several high-resolution formats. No Symphony performance is included.

>>>I assume it's been discussed before, but I'm not able to find it right away. Everywhere I read that Doug's book 'is to released in 2006', is there already a more exact date?>>>

No exact date yet, but as I say, one you hear tell of the ROTK: CR release date, you’ll be able to get a decent idea of when you may be finding the book. It’s all penciled in for 2007 right now.

>>>I just listened to the interview with Howard Shore about The Departed from this month's FSM issue. It sounds really terrific actually!

And our Doug got quite some praise for the liner notes from the maestro himself>>>

Thanks! See, everyone, yet another great reason to subscribe to FSM Online!

>>>Ok I am hearing sense the dawn of time…ok ok, from the first time I read this forum about the book of Doug Adams
What is this exactly? (ok I know that’s about LOTR trilogy music)
But it’s all new material? Or it contains the same info with the CR books plus the Annotated score? Or same info with CR books plus new expanded material?
Can some one post a roundup reply? Or even, if Doug has the time to give us a solid info?>>>

It’ll contain all the liners info… plus more info of that ilk. It’ll contain all the Annotated Score info… again, plus more info like that. It’ll contain some sections you’ve never heard of before. I’ll contain multimedia content. It will keep me very busy for the next few months!!

And so will ROTK: CR… which has now begun production.

-Doug

ttbk

[TheTennisBallKid]

>>>I hope it's on backups, too.>>>

The back-ups have back-ups, believe me!

>>>And with all this talk of alternate/original versions to be found "on another release", I do hope we will yet get to hear the theatrical Journey to Rivendell, sans the additional Aragorn (?) bits, in the future.>>>

These types of decisions are all on the burner right now.

>>>That's quite true... and some of the LotR music is intentionally harmonically simple (like the Hobbit music). I suppose a lot of the complexity comes from the way he paints the world (in many different flavors) and the astonishing amount of leitmotifs.

My own personal taste favors lush and often dissonant chords. It's a bias, I admit. As such, a lot of the LotR music doesn't interest me. On the other hand, Shore's action music is often very fascinating (especially the Watcher in the Water, Cave Troll and Balrog material).>>>

No need to apologies, all issues of taste, by their nature, are biases. Nothing wrong with that, nor is there anything with holding a dissenting view. Variety of opinion is a good sign, I’d say.

>>>*agape* Does this imply that ROTK:CR will be six hours long?! Yay!>>>

ROTK: CR will not be 6 hours long, sorry if I came across misleadingly. It will, however, unquestionably be the longest of the releases.

>>> I asked for clarification concerning Mr. Shore's wishes to release the symphony. Or, indeed, if it will be released.>>>

Right now, no release of the Symphony is planned. Once the Complete Recordings are finished, perhaps this issue will again be up for discussion.

In the meantime, the live Symphony will continue to tour.

>>>About Grima's theme: so there is one, but not the one I mentioned?
Then what is that motif I mentioned? That one gets quite a workout in TTT. To be more specific: it plays at the very first sight of Grima on the low basses/ celli: D,E,F,G,A.>>>

>>>I think I know what you're talking about. That theme also plays just before Gamling dresses Théoden for battle.

So I doubt that's Grima's theme, since he isn't anywhere in the picture around that time. It's probably a danger motive for Rohan, but we'll know for sure very soon>>>

I think Incanus may have asked about this figure many, many posts ago… perhaps it was even an email. What you’ve got there is simply a D-minor pentachord. They’re literally all over the LOTR scores, generally used as building clusters, though not always. And, as a matter of fact, they’re a device Shore uses in quite a number of his scores… though generally in different ways. There is no specific dramatic element associated with this device, primarily due to its proliferation. I *may* make mention of its appearance at a later date, but it's really just part of the overall fabric, not a distinct motif per se.

Re: Grima, he’s actually got a very specific… and very unique… motif. Listen very closely next time you’re digging through the film. Your ears are already in the right register, so you’re almost there!

>>>Hmmm...Doug's begun work on ROTK:CR? See? Now we know what he meant by "the time frame between TTT:CR and ROTK:CR will be very small.">>>

It was smaller even that I’d predicted. I’m still finishing TTT at the same time!

>>>So, the production will take a year, or we can cross our fingers wishing a ROTK CR release this summer? I imagine that with thes e two CR releases behind your team could complete it like a breeze>>>

Well…

As much as I’d love to say this were down to a science now, each score gets longer and more complex. So there are always new curves being thrown… but, honestly, that’s part of the fun!

>>>DA,are there also themes for mini-minor characters?Gamling,Grimbold,Mardil,Ugluk,Grishnak,Lurtz,Gorbag etc?>>>

No sir. But, that goes back to Shore’s approach. What, in LOTR, gets musical themes? How is the score constructed? It always echoes Tolkien’s writing, which was based on hierarchal structures. A character is not just a stand-alone cipher. He/she has parents, those parents represent a lineage, that lineage is tied to a culture, that culture has neighbors, allies, enemies, traditions, etc. There are actually relatively few “character” themes in Shore’s LOTR… and those that do have them are presented as an offshoot of a culture. That’s another connection to Wagner, in a way… the idea of a hierarchy of material, not just tunes for character for the sake of having a melody to fall back on.

>>>I think minor characters/people-as-a-whole are treated as extensions off major themes.>>>

Absolutely true. Same holds for major characters, for the most part.

>>>I think the music would become to complex and would just burst if minor characters would have their own theme, it's already that complex wit just major persons and things their themes.>>>

I don’t know that it’s a question of complexity. I’m sure Shore could write a killer tune for Fatty Bolger were he so inclined. But what would be the purpose? It’s a question of appropriateness, I think. What story was Shore telling? What music was important for the story? How can that story be properly populated with leitmotifs?

>>>New interesting info! In the Filmsradio interview of Howard shore, Shore mention the times of the Scores and send: FOTR was about 3 hours TTT was 3 hours and something more and that Return of the King is is 3:30 – 4:00 hours
Can this be true? >>>

Oh, it's true all right!

-Doug

On The Score: Interview with Howard Shore
Direct Download; 128k mp3
Direct Download; 64k mp3

I will transcribe the section related to LOTR....



ttbk

[TheTennisBallKid]

Daniel Schweiger: "When Peter Jackson approached you with the Lord of the Rings movies -- I can only imagine the size of that mountain you were going to have to climb. How did you look at it?"

Howard Shore: "Well, you go kind of step by step. And, um, that was quite a long project; it was close to four years of writing.

The book is incredible, I mean, you know, it's a classic of the twentieth century, and I love the book, I'd read it in the sixties. If you just go, you know, with Peter, and Fran and Philippa, because they were screenwriters , they had so much insight into it. We just worked so closely together, you really became a part of the writing of the story.

And the music was done in a very close collaboration. The composition started with the Mines of Moria -- when the Fellowship entered the Mines of Moria -- and they're in the dark, the door closes and they're in a completely dark place; and that's kinda where you were, you started with them. And then Gandalf lights -- you know, illuminates his staff; it was like Peter lighting up ideas. And then you're kinda walking through the darkness step-by-step....and as you go you're learning more about your enviroment and where you are -- the score was kinda written like that, it was kinda written as part of the journey of these characters. You kind of wrote your way through Moria, the steps of Khazad-dûm, the Balrog...you know, you work your way through there, you came out to the plains of Lothlórien, you kind of work your way through that and into the forest. And then you went back before Moria, and back through Rivendell...

Early on, when I first saw pieces of the film I went away and did a lot of research, I probably did four months of not writing a note but just reading everything about Tolkien...about what motivated him to write the book -- he spent fourteen years writing it -- and the period it was written in; the influence of the first World War on Tolkien; the influence of book once it was published in the early 50's and how it affected our culture; and also how it affected other films and things like that -- which it has enormously.

And also I had to understand things like Ring mythology -- Philippa was a great help with that, Philippa is a great Tolkien scholar, she showed you all the areas around Lord of the Rings, like all of the influences of things about it. And then of course you had to study the languages....there was a lot to learn and a lot to catch up on.

And then, sitting down and feel comfortable, I guess you just push everything away....everything goes away into [...?] stories -- and then you go: well, what do you have to say about this? How do you feel about the Shire? How do you feel about Fellowship? And how do you feel about all the great qualities about the book, like honor, loyalty, friendship, sacrifice...what is your expression about those ideas, in music?

And that's really the proccess. And then you can write a piece for the Shire, and you can write the Fellowship theme, and feel, well, those are true expressions -- those are my expressions of what those things mean to me. And once you do that, and you feel you've done your work, then you go on and create Rivendell...or then you go into Lothlórien. You continue expressing the ideas until they start to add up -- until they start to become larger...it's like architecture; where you're building this foundation, you're building a skyscraper, but you're doing it with a very firm foundation.

By the time you wrote into Return of the King you had built so much of it that it was actually kind of a wonderful proccess -- by the end *laughs* they had to drag me away from writing it because the complexity of the book was so incredible that you loved working on it because doors would keep opening and you'd go through them, and you'd see other connections to things. It was an endlessly revealing, interesting proccess."

DS: "Now thankfully we have the entire scores coming out -- we have The Two Towers coming out in November, the entire score.

How many hours did you end up writing for this?"

HS: "I think about twelve. Fellowship of the Ring came out, the Complete Recordings, that was three hours, and Two Towers is coming out November 7th, and I think that's a little over three hours. That's six. And then I think Return of the King is at least four, maybe for-and-a-half. And then, there was a lot of other music written. Other pieces that were works in progress, works that led up to other pieces; attempts at things that I might have orchestrated and recorded, alternates and all that. Probably close to that much music.

But it was done over four years, and it's...as I go back through it, because I've been working on Two Towers: The Complete Recordings...we've been going back. And you know, it's taken eight or nine months to go back through it all. Just to go back through it. And now we're starting on Return of the King. But it's incredible just to go back through it and see what you've done, and try to analyze it and sort some of it out -- because it was written in a very linear way, I was writing literally all the time. And so, the archive of it is something we're all kind of looking at now, and trying to really sort it all out really. And that's really what the Complete Recordings are -- it's like the true expression of all the compositions to the story."

DS: "Do you think that comparing both the films and your scores as Wagnerian...do you think that's apt?"

HS: "Well, Wagner taught us about how to use things like leitmotives. Which is an incredible thing. He also taught us the use of expression in music -- that you could have music that expressed ideas of places, and character, and culture. Those are important ideas that have never really been utilized to such a degree that he did. And those are important concepts, really, in terms of telling stories, in terms of expressing certain ideas; whether it's theatre, or in opera, or in film. That's something that really took place in the mid-19th century, and so the use of the language for Lord of the Rings is based in that language. The composition that I did is really based in this 19th century language -- it really has a lot of modernisms, there's really lots of 20th-century techniques used throughout the score; but the basis of it is based in this mid 19th-century language. And it was done that way for storytelling. It's a good way to express ideas -- that I felt were right to express this idea about Middle-earth, a culture five, six thousand years ago; an ancient culture. It was a way to express the ideas, and there are some connections to [Wagner's] great work, yes."

DS: "Do you think both the score,and the film are as close to opera as you're going to get in a movie?"

HS: "Well, I wrote a lot of music, as I said, maybe twelve hours. Der Ring des Nibelungen is much longer, well maybe not much longer, I think it's sixteen hours, if I'm not mistaken. But it was written over a longer period of time....the connection is, they're both large pieces written about Ring mythology. So there's a really a connection to that, to that concept of Ring mythology.

And they're also large orchestral pieces. Lord of the Rings is written for symphony orchestra of 100, with folk instruments added to that, sometimes as many as eight, or ten, or twelve folk instruments added to the symphony orchestra; plus a mixed choir of eighty and a children's choir of fity or sixty children. It's over two hundred. Even the proportions are, um, the closest connection to it...plus you're using all of Tolkien's created languages. The closest connection really is to opera, I felt. As a dramatic work."

DS: "And now your music has really taken on a new life; I saw at the Hollywood Bowl with your Lord of the Rings concert."

HS: "Well, the symphony is a two-hour and ten minute, six movement piece that is the twelve hours cut down into this smaller piece -- it's for symphony orchestra, and chorus, and children's chorus. And it's played all over the world -- I did about forty concerts in all different places around the world, in 04 mostly. 05 was a real writing year, I did some conducting of it last year. This year I did two or three concerts of it with the Cleveland Orchestra -- which was just incredible, a wonderful orchestra.

The has piece has had over one hundred performances. I think it's just an enjoyable piece to work on. I think the idea was --[???? ????] was really the one that put the bug in my head to do it -- he said, 'If you don't create a score for this, the piece will only be on record,' by creating the score, you have given it new life, orchestras are able to play the piece; choirs can learn to sing it, the children's choir learns to sing it. And wherever it's done, it's always done by local orchestra, and chorus, and children's chorus. So it has very much a wonderful community aspect to it. It played in Minneapolis Friday, and tonight, Saturday. And it just becomes part of the culture in a way that people who are interested in Tolkien's work -- they can read the book, they can see the film, they can also be part of the music. So it has a wonderful spirit to it, and I kinda like that as a musician and a composer that's a way of almost giving it back, so people can experience the things they liked about the book and the film. It's kind of a fun, nice thing to do."

DS: "After your work with Peter on the Lord of the Rings films, unfortunately, King Kong didn't work out; but do you think your friendship and bond that youestablish whileworking on the trilogy was enough to say, well this kinda didn't work out, but we'll work together again."

HS: "Oh, sure."

DS: "If you don't mind me asking, why don't you think King Kong worked out, for whatever reason?"

HS: "Well, some collaborations just work well with different pieces and some don't, you know. It's fairly complicated, and I suspect it's been discussed a lot and....you can have very successful collaborations, and Lord of the Ring is truly the result of a collaboration. That's really showing what can happen when all things be equal, and you have this great work to work off of, what can be created."

DS: "Now there's been talk of Peter doing the Hobbit; would you like to go back to Middle-earth?"

HS: "Oh, I'd love to."

DS: "Do you think it's likely?"

HS: "I hope so."

I was rather suprised to hear the question of Kong raised...for a while at least, Shore would only take interviews if it was agreed beforehand that no questions would be asked about it. Wasn't suprised that he didn't want to talk about it....



ttbk

[Primula Baggins]

I'm very relieved to hear him say that he would still be glad to work with PJ. If PJ does The Hobbit, it HAS to be with Shore. HAS to be.

(Thinks of it, ttbk—a whole new score weaving many new themes and some old ones, too. . . .)

[TheTennisBallKid]

Perhaps the most interesting challenge there would be the treatment of existing themes. The Shire material, for example, I'd expect it to be both clearly related to what is heard in the trilogy...but perhaps developed along a different line, since it's Bilbo's tale. Or maybe it would only appear gradually throughout the score as the hobbit's nature is revealed. I'd hope that "Road Goes Ever On" would be interpolated....perhaps serving as the end credits song.

Would we hear subtle hints of the Isengard theme associated with Saruman?

Would Aragorn have thematic material related to his motif in the trilogy that is associated with his ascension to king?

I want to hear what he would write for Aragorn and Arwen meeting. I do. Film that please, PJ.

Dwarven material in a similar vein to the Darrowdelf theme?

New cultures to score! Dale! Wood Elves! Mirkwood! The goblins in the Misty Mountains!

Smaug's theme!

The Ring themes returning! And The Pity of Gollum!

Ohmygosh The Eagles are coming! Nature/Moth theme!


Nope, I haven't thought about this that much....




ttbk

[Primula Baggins]

I'm thinking about it more and more!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Hey, ttbk, thanks for posting that interview with Howard. I don't get to see much of him talking about his own work. And I'm also really glad to hear (and not at all surprised) that he would be willing to work with PJ on The Hobbit.

[TheTennisBallKid]

Amazon.uk is now listing the domestic version (previously it was just the US import), and the date is November 27th.
HMV; £39.99, and November 17th.



US sites are still listing the 7th.

ttbk

[TheTennisBallKid]

TTT for preorder:

UK:
The Hut; £34.89
Amazon; £46.99
Tesco; £39.99
HMV;£39.99

All sites except Amazon citing a release date of November 17th.

US: (November 7th)
Amazon ($60.99)
Barnes and Noble ($53.18; members: $47.86)
CD Universe ($53.19)
Moviemusic.com ($70.66)

Hi everyone,

Ok, you’ve got questions, so I’ll try to come up with answers. First, let’s hit the biggie, ok?

Is there a change in the international release date, and if so, why?

I can only offer a resounding: “I don’t know” and “I don’t know.”

Seriously, that’s not me being snarky, I just don’t have any idea whatsoever. I’ve not heard anything from Shore’s office on the subject, and I’ve not heard anything from Warners on the subject. If the European release date has been altered, I assure you, it’s not because of the product is not ready. The TTT content and design have been set in stone for over a month. The final draft of the Annotated Score went out for layout last week (which means it should be back for proofing very soon), but that doesn’t have anything at all to do with the physical product.

If the European release date has shifted, I am quite certain it’s for logistical purposes—i.e., these sets are physically large and take a while to ship in the bulk orders the European internet retailers are surely ordering in. It is not a business decision—after all, what on earth would prompt such a thought at the business level? This scenario…

EXEC 1: Hey, I know how we can squeeze more money out of the poor, unsuspecting Lord of the Rings fans!

EXEC 2: How?

EXEC 1: Let’s delay the European release date of a high-end product geared towards a niche market by two weeks at the last minute; we’re sure to sell more that way.

EXEC 2: Magnificent!

…seems a bit unlikely, don’t you think? What’s to be gained other than ill will? I can understand the paranoia, since FOTR ended up delayed a few times. But again, I will remind you, this was because of the demands of one of the performing artists. Now, I suppose that the rampant urge to remain un-sued does, technically, qualify as a business / financal decision, but I don’t think we can hold this against anyone, can we? Of course, everything above is hypothetical. I haven’t heard a peep about a release date alteration, domestic or international. You should know, I probably won’t get a copy of the actual set until it’s commercially available either, so I’m right there in the boat with you. Same goes for everyone in Shore’s office. And yet somehow, I’m sure we’ll find the strength to carry on.

Whether they decide to delay the European release or pull a surprise switcheroo and bump it forwards to next Tuesday, the 24th of October, the set will be in your hands shortly.

Or, maybe they’re trying to delay it to line it up with my birthday, which, to answer a question elsewhere, is Nov. 27.

Ok there’s a full page of my shrugging my shoulders and patting backs unnecessarily, so let’s move ahead ok?

>>>Re: Grima, he’s actually got a very specific… and very unique… motif. Listen very closely next time you’re digging through the film. Your ears are already in the right register, so you’re almost there!

Does it end on F, Bb, A?>>>

Very close. It ends in C Ab G.

>>>This comment reminds me of a piece by Steve Reich that I happened to hear on the radio today. Variations for Winds, Strings and Keyboards I believe. At least I think it was. It sounded strikingly similar to Cliff Martinez's soundtrack for Solaris. A very beautiful score IMO. Or rather I should say that Martinez's score sounded a lot like Reich's both in sound and in structure. In any case, thanks Doug for the updates!>>>

If you’re a Reich fan, I’d recommend you check out Six Marimbas, Different Trains, Nagoya Marimbas, New York Counterpoint, or, my personal favorite, Music for 18 Musicians. I love all those works for different reasons, and I think they give a pretty good cross section of the composer’s output.

>>>I've a little time to spare. DOUG, can you clearly tell us: how much music was written for each film, approximately; how much music was recorded for each film, approximately (of course, I'm not talking about every take, but all that would be 'presentable' on the CR [even if it isn't on the CR]). I'm confused about how much there is of written and recorded music. I'd like to be able to fill in something like this:>>>

My research involved digging through the conductor’s scores to the completed compositions, which means that much of the material that was unrecorded, or recorded then redone, I never saw. Now, I know where many or most of these pieces were meant to exist because of notes, but there’s still much I’ve never heard… (I did hear some at recording sessions, I should point out.) Anyway, that research is still upcoming, so I can’t answer this question just yet. This is such a large project that even the research phase still isn’t quite complete!

>>>Do you know anything about the DVD-A portion of the releases? Particularly how the surround mixes were set up and whether the Two Towers release will follow the same pattern as the Fellowship score?>>>

I *believe* that the Two Towers release will follow Fellowship’s standard.

>>>For the most part I didn't notice many places where instruments or choir were coming from a particular channel. The big exception to this is featured solos both voice and insturment are firmly placed in the center channel. In thinking about this question, I did notice some directionality in the Plan 9 songs. Other than this most of the surrounds appear to be along the line of insrument placement within the orchestra.>>>

Yes, Shore wanted to create the most natural sound possible with the surround mix. The orchestra is spread across the front of the room while the rears pick up the room ambience. He wanted, as much as possible, to recreate experience of listening to a live orchestra perform… essentially what he heard as he conducted the LPO.

>>>Also what was the reason for choosing 48/24 over the 96/24? My guess would be disc space and 3 hour run time. With 4 audio tracks that had to take a lot disc space. There is definitely a difference in the clarity of 96/24 and 48/24, not that there is anything wrong with the 48/24.>>>

I think you’re absolutely correct, disc space was a concern. Fellowship probably would have fit in a higher resolution, but I don’t know if Return of the King would have. So, in order to keep the DVD presentation on one disc, 48/24 appeared to be the way to go.

>>>I usually listen to the 5.1 DVD-A version of the recording, but for the most part keep the television off. This is due to nothing changing other than the song titles for the 3 hour running time. Will the Two Towers DVD have a single image on the screen for the entire length of the program? It would be great to get an image that relates to the piece playing. A still image in the same sepia format would be great.>>>

I *think* the TTT DVD will again go for a static image, though I think it’s mostly an aesthetic consideration here. One's attention should be going towards the audio, not the video, so they didn’t want to create a competition.

>>>Also another question for Doug’s Book (that I am definitely going to buy). What is the Multimedia contents exactly?>>>

That’s still being sorted out, but there are some pretty wonderful ideas on the table. The next big book meeting will be in December, so maybe we’ll have a better idea then.

>>>I remember the first time I heard samples from the FOTR CR was from the Film Score Monthly podcast, where Doug and many others discussed the CR. I hope the next podcast delves into The Two Towers CR. Any chance of this happening Doug?

Besides, I am just interesting in hearing another podcast on whatever subject; I really enjoy those podcasts; as I said once before; they are equally hilarious as they are informative. A really perfect mix!>>>

Thank you! There’s a new Podcast up today as a matter of fact:
http://media20a.libsyn.com/podcasts/fsm ... st_018.mp3

Yes, we did the first few Fellowship clips last year. I’d like to again this year, but I can’t quite decide what format would work. I don’t think people want to hear me mindlessly gush about the project anymore, so it’d have to be something that was appropriately interesting. If this happens, I’d imagine we probably try to go live Nov. 1, as this new Halloween Podcast will stay up until then.

-Doug

ttbk

[TheTennisBallKid]

>>>Hey Doug I got an idea for your next podcast, which could incorporate The Two Towers. What if you and the Kaplan's discussed sequel scores? I certainly would be interested in hearing your thoughts on what the best sequel scores are, and also the worst. Plus you could easily throw in a discussion about Two Towers.>>>

Thanks, glad you liked the Halloween Special!

There are a couple of ideas on the burner right now for a potential Two Towers Podcast, so we’ll see what happens.

>>>Is there a possibility to listen to the podcast about FOTR CR again?>>>

The original fellowship Podcast is available right here:
http://media20a.libsyn.com/podcasts/fsm ... st_005.mp3

…or through iTunes.

>>>Oh no, misunderstanding! I don’t know what exactly is multimedia content… it’s going to be a cd with info and clips or something? I know that’s a stupid question but if anyone can tell me… thanx!>>>

Same answer as before, I’m afraid. The content will dictate the media, so until everything is ironed out, no announcements just yet.

>>>Whats interesting to note is that the FOTR CR podcast starts with the Gondor horn line from "The Great Eye", but it is accompanied with another horn in the beginning which both the film and the CR don't have. I wonder where this rendition came from......Doug?>>>

I’m SO glad someone finally got this!! The Film Score Monthly Podcast actually has its own musical theme! You can hear it in its full form at the beginning of the very first Podcast (give it a listen if you can stand the crummy audio quality that follows the musical intro!)

Variations of that theme are hidden in the beginning of many of the early Podcasts:

Memoirs of a Geisha 2 – Japanese version (listen to the tuned gongs)

Harry Podcast Part 2 – Disguised as the Harry Potter theme (if you listen carefully, this isn’t actually from any Potter film, it’s an original setting of the Podcast theme)

Fellowship – Played in counterpoint against the Gondor horn line

Christmas Special – The opening five chimes

Munich Musings – Additional second harp voice

Sun 2 – Synthy counterpoint below the Zelda theme

We haven’t used it in a while, but I’d like to get in back in there again, if time permits. Anyway, you win the prize! We’ve been waiting a year for anyone to notice that!

>>>Oooooh! Also, I thought up a really cool idea Doug. Maybe for the multimedia content that (might? will?) accompany your book, you could suggest including the "Unused Concepts" from all 3 scores - the ones that appear on the Annotated Scores and are "never-before-heard".>>>

Well, the Unused Concepts, as they detailed in the Annotated Scores, generally refer to changes that are either A) heard on disc, but aren’t in the film or B) were discussed, but ultimately never recorded. However, there is certainly material that doesn’t fit either category… material that was written, recorded and the replaced with a composition that followed a different path. We haven’t discussed much of that yet… little bits and pieces here and there, maybe… but that’s certainly something that’s out there.

>>>Well, I am aware of German online stores. I'm talking about those odd buildings where you walk in, pick up a CD and hand a certain amount of cash to an elderly, bored woman.
Sometimes those visits can be aggravating, you know.>>>

If it makes you feel any better, FOTR:CR was hard to find in actual record shops in the US as well, simply because the demand was underestimated, and they sold out so quickly that they were rarely seen on shelves. I don’t think I ever once ran into a copy of FOTR: CR in a US shop, as a matter of fact! I understand that they’re going to try and address this with TTT, so we’ll see.

>>>DOUG, would it be possible for us to work with you (and maybe Shore?) to make a COMPLETE thematic analysis of all 3 scores??? >>>

Do you mean complete thematic analysis in terms of listing all themes, or going through composition by composition and noting where themes occur? In the case of the former, that’s what you’re essentially getting in the liner notes… which will, of course, be re-compiled into the full book. In the case of the latter, that’s the Annotated Score… mostly. I don’t want the Annotated Score to turn into a catalogue, however. It needs to be readable, I think; it needs to tell the story of LOTR. I don’t want it to be:

At 0:15 you hear the Fellowship theme. At 0:21 you hear the Isengard theme. At 0:30 you hear the Fellowship theme again.

I love these scores more than humanly possible, but I don’t think I’d ever be able to read something like that, much less write it! Now, don’t get me wrong, all these things *should* be addressed, but I think it’s much more readable to say something like, “The Fellowship and Isengard themes are intermingled before… blah, blah blah.”

Oh and of course, all the Annotated Score material will be complied into a single form for the book as well.

>>>Ah, so this was the reason for the delay of FOTR:CR last year. Never heard of this before now. Anyone want to take up a guess as to which one it was? I will put my money on Viggo. If nothing for the fact that his constant need for throwing his political views upon the rest of us makes me unable to stand him as a person. Good actor and I liked him in LOTR but just can't stand those Hollywood types that use their celeb. status to bash the Republican party. Sean Astin is right up there as well, but I don't remember him singing in FOTR:CR.>>>

No, no, nothing dealing with republicans, democrats, libertarians or anything of that sort. Just some demands from legal reps on how tracks worked out. Nothing controversial, just something that came in last minute…. Meaning it was a reasonable demand, and one the party in question had every right to make, it just caught everyone a bit by surprise. Everything worked out in the long run.

-Doug

ttbk

[TheTennisBallKid]

Hi everyone,

>>>Who, may I ask, composed that podcast theme? I like the Americana epic feel of it. Reminds me of the feeling I get when listening to Williams' Olympic compositions and Horner's Apollo 13.>>>

I’m glad you like it. I composed it, actually. (My Masters was in composition.)

>>>If you mean what I think you mean, CoP, that would require a bar by bar listing of every appearance of each theme as a whole or in part... This would require quite an encyclopedic commentary as musical themes can change or be combined in so many subtle ways. And what would be of most interest is why the changes occur, so it would indeed require a vast dense and technical commentary!>>>

A few more words on this subject, if you’ll indulge me. The other issue, in regards to the above, is that occasionally the material in Shore’s score leaves the door to interpretation open. If you hear C Bb C over a shot of the heroes, is Shore referencing the Fellowship? Is he referencing The Heroics of Aragorn? Gandalf the White (In the Fellowship)? The Realm of Gondor (In Ascension)? Dramatic context clues help much of the time, but every once in a while Shore will use material that *can and does* refer to any number of dramatic elements… that non-specificity is part of the design. This plays an especially large role in ROTK where material is combined to the point that it begins to overlap. There are plenty of statements in ROTK where History of the Ring combines with Evil of the Ring… which pushes it right into Evil Times’ territory. So which is it? All? None?

That’s an amazing subtlety. Sometimes Shore will unravel the riddle, but sometimes he lets it stand for its own sake. Combination *is* identification. Each viewer/listener will take away something different… and oftentimes the same viewer/listener will take away something different each time.

These are, in many instances, open-source scores. That’s not to suggest that it’s impossible to track down all the material that is in the scores (because, really, that’s what we’re doing), but that this material, in application, is sometimes purposefully indistinct.

We worked very carefully on this project to come up with an analytical form that would not deprive Shore’s score of its beauty. Get too catalogue-like and you’re missing the ambiguity and structural subtlety. Get too flowery and you’re missing the technical flair. It’s a fine line, and we’ve given it a huge amount of attention. It’s not as simple as “How do we reach the audience best?” which is, in itself, a huge consideration, obviously. The question was always, “How do we best represent this amazing work?”

>>>As far as I can remember, this was "not out of the question".>>>

It still isn’t out of the question, but it is out of the present… meaning with everyone’s hands so full, such a thing probably won’t be discussed for a little while yet.

>>>And in fact, is there such a score in a finished form as yet? I imagine the CR's were compiled directly from the audio recordings. So the scores actually used originally at the recording sessions may be in some sort of as yet somewhat different and possibly even chaotic state...>>>

This project is, at least, being tended to now. The full scores are currently being engraved for archival purposes at Shore’s offices.

>>>That suggests an idea for Doug's book though: perhaps some facsimiles of pages showing the stages of M. Shore's working process: i.e., a sketch or two, a handwritten (or computer written) recension of a page or two, then a final printed version of some of the actual orchestral parts... You know, a sort of fragment from a musical counterpart to C. Tolkien's "The History of Middle-earth"!>>>

This idea is on the table, yes!

>>>Wasn't it a German site or some other international retail site that first had clips last year? Or was it Soundtrack.net?>>>

It was the good ol’ FSM Podcast!

>>>Getting back to HS , Doug , in the two disc set, the notes mention that HS is going to score another Fly film, or was that an operatic play..........do you have any more information?????????>>>

Yes, this is his opera, The Fly… which will be directed for the stage by David Cronenberg. It premieres next year.

>>>I like your Annotated Score, Doug, but it has too little thematic info for me to be satisfied, but I understand that it's for everyone, not just me. (No need to be selfish.) And I know that your wonderfully awesome Themes section in the liner notes is incomplete. FotR's lacks at least one: the Power of the Ring (there may be a couple more, though they may not be considered themes from your perspective).>>>

Sorry, to be contradictory, but the liners are, in fact, complete from a leitmotif standpoint. There is no Power of the Ring theme, this is just a fan invention. (I know what they’re talking about with this one, but it’s been misidentified. You’ll see later on.) The Fellowship of the Ring features three Ring themes, no more no less. As I say, there are a couple of structural, non-leitmotivic ideas in Fellowship that will be discussed soon, but as far as specific leitmotif themes, you’re seeing everything that’s there. Likewise, TTT will be complete… again there are a couple of structural things in there, but they’ll be discussed in the Two Towers’ Annotated Score. I think people often get confused by Shore’s variations… and occasionally mistake some of his stylistic tendencies as representing something in the drama. But, believe me, you’re getting the whole kit and caboodle! The book will offer more detail, but as far as musical material, we’re not holding anything back. It’ll all make sense once you’ve got all the pieces.

Ok, that’s all for today. I’ll be back later in the week - hopefully tomorrow - to discuss Podcast details!

-Doug

ttbk

[TheTennisBallKid]

I highly recommend you all head here.
http://media20a.libsyn.com/podcasts/fsm ... st_019.mp3

Now.

-Doug

Edit: He asks for questions about the boxset to be emailed to

Code: Select all

dadams1127@aol.com

to be answered in a podcast that'll be up in a few days. And there are soundclips, too. Some of which I had never heard before...

ttbk