I agree with soli and also Alatar's pick of Amon Hen. Two massive cinematic moments that Tolkien handed out on a plate and that PJ just chucked away were the Witch-King at the Gate of Minas Tirith and the final fall of Sauron; rising up into a vast black mushroom cloud and taking the shape of a person stretching out a claw. Not only powerful, It could have been so ambiguous if intercut with the battle before the Black Gates.
A small moment that I missed? The healing of Éowyn by Faramir I suppose.
ETA
I would have like the scene with Faramir to be exactly like it was in the book with each and every line spoken as written.
Really? I gave myself the job of condensing all that. Not an easy job, no precious.
Last edited by ToshoftheWuffingas on Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I could have coped with Osgiliath if Faramir's character hadn't been decimated by it. That's really my main beef with that diversion.
Amon Hen - as has been pointed out, that's a great cinematic moment missed.
Cerin Amroth - just want to point out to yov that this is where the Arwen scenes and Aragorn's longing belong! Not in the nonsensical cliff-dive scene!
The darkness of Sauron. Where was it? Where?
Frodo's defiance at the Ford. PJ really did wimpify him from early on. Great pity.
The temptation of Samwise.
The meeting of Aragorn and Éomer on the Pelennor
The arrival of the Dúnedain; the films never show that Aragorn is supported by his kinfolk. He's a lone wolf throughout.
Mornings wouldn't suck so badly if they came later in the day.
The lack of dark at Pelennor is extremely perplexing. I can only think that there was some technical oversight or something like that. I can't actually see them talking about doing it and deciding not to just cuz.
(Just occurred to me, maybe he didn't want two big night battle scenes? If that was the reasoning, it's pretty crappy reasoning. )
One thing about the Murk of Mordor is that when both the fellowship and narrative is geographically split, it could have helped the viewer to bring the plotlines together, much as Tolkien slipped in little snatches in a plotline of what was happening elsewhere.
I have a vague memory of PJ explaining why he didn't use the Mordor dark, perhaps in one of the commentaries, or one of the other DVD extras.
I more distinctly remember not being convinced at all by his explanation.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
Lalaith wrote:And, for God's sake, PJ, could you not have given us one damn kiss between Faramir and Éowyn?! Just one?!
Word. WORD. They're the best couple in Middle-earth anyway. *grumble*
And Book Legolas is cooler.
Nothing can dim my liking of the films as films -- and PJ does deliver many truly fabulous iconic moments, for which I forgive him everything -- but as an adaptation of Tolkien, they do jump the shark quite a lot, don't they?
"Frodo undertook his quest out of love - to save the world he knew from disaster at his own expense, if he could ... " Letter no. 246, The Collected Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien Avatar by goldlighticons on Live Journal
simply speculating here .... perhaps Jackson did not want the ROTK battle scenes to look too much like the TTT battle scenes which were mostly at night.....
film is obviously a far more visual medium ...
some of the Pelennor scenes were at night ... Grond bursting through the gates for one scene.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers
I think PJ's excuse was something along those lines, too. I know what V is referring to, but can't remember it exactly. Must go and look it up some time.
[edit: just sat through about 15 mins of DVD commentary and PJ does indeed say that it's all about making Pelennor different from Helm's Deep. He liked the idea of having daylight for the most part, albeit with some night scenes. Having watched it again, you do see the black shadow and clouds spilling out from Mordor in the background, blocking out the sun, and the visuals are tinted a sickly greenish/yellow, with plenty of choking dust in the air.]
There is magic in long-distance friendships. They let you relate to other human beings in a way that goes beyond being physically together and is often more profound.
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Lalaith wrote:
And, for God's sake, PJ, could you not have given us one damn kiss between Faramir and Éowyn?! Just one?!
AMEN. I wish that PJ would have damn well made sure to let the audience know that Éowyn ended up finding real love (not fairytale love) with Faramir and wasn't settling on him as second choice to her unrequited love for Aragorn. To me the movie was like she was settling for poor old Faramir, second in line Faramir, that her heart belonged to Aragorn and that Faramir was just a fill in. Of course I am of the mind that book Faramir was probably one of the most noble men in the entire book, and on par with Aragorn to be King of Gondor, but meh that's just me.
As for Legolas in the movie... He was so much more in the book, but then again it could be the actor.
And to add the book has more detail that simply can not translate to the movie media.
From the ashes, a fire shall be woken. A light from the shadow shall spring. Renewed shall be blade that was broken. The crownless again shall be king.
Elentári wrote:I think PJ's excuse was something along those lines, too... just sat through about 15 mins of DVD commentary and PJ does indeed say that it's all about making Pelennor different from Helm's Deep.
In Tolkien's commentary on the Zimmerman film treatment of LOTR, he argued that the two battles might be too similar, and partly for that reason suggested cutting Helm's Deep entirely.
The two scenes that I was most surprised and disappointed about not being in the movies were Gollum's near repentance on the stairs (as Voronwë discussed in the beginning of the thread) and the Gandalf-Witchking confrontation at the Minas Tirith gate. These are 2 of my absolute favorite scenes in the book and neither was in the movie, although the EE had the unsatisfying (to me) substitute scene where the WiKi broke Gandalf's staff.
And the substitution of the awful Frodo tells Sam to go home stuff on the stairs instead of Gollum's near repentance - ugh!
I recall talking to a co-worker shortly before ROTK came out. He was a big fan of the first two movies but had not read the books (and still hasn't). He particularly enjoyed the action/adventure aspect of the movies. Anyway, I told him that in ROTK there were 3 very exciting/emotional moments really close together (within about 20 pages) and this should be really "cool" in the movie. I didn't tell him what the moments were so as not to spoil it for him, but I was referring to the cockcrow scene, Éowyn and the Wiki, and Aragorn's unexpected arrival in the corsair ships. Then it turned out that the cockcrow scene wasn't there, the Dernhelm scene was OK (although split up by Aragorn's arrival) but not as good as the book, and Aragorn's sudden appearance was not nearly as thrilling as in the book (and in the EE that lousy scene with the corsair ships that PJ is in spoils any chance of surprise later on).
Húrin, you bring up a good point about spoiling the chance of surprise. That was something PJ did several times, usually because of messing with the timeline, most notably resulting in the redundancy of the Mouth of Sauron scene (some would say thankfully!) The same with Éowyn - wouldn't it have been great if we didn't know it was her until she yanks off the helmet in front of the WiKi?
There is magic in long-distance friendships. They let you relate to other human beings in a way that goes beyond being physically together and is often more profound.
~Diana Cortes
Elentári - I agree that it would have been great to keep Éowyn's identity a secret until she took off her helmet before the Witch-king, but I don't blame PJ for not doing this. As others have pointed out before, it would have been extremely difficult to keep the audience from learning who Dernhelm was prior to the revelation, unlike on the printed page where the reader can neither see Dernhelm nor hear her voice. So this ssue is not one of my gripes about the movie.
A minor character and I know why he was not included in the movie, but as already mentioned, I missed the gray company with the sons of Elrond. Specifically I miss Halbarad. He faithfully answered the call to come to Aragorn's aid and when he came to entrance to the Path of the Dead, and knowing in his foresight that his death awaited him, he went forward anyway.
1. " . . . (we are ) too engrossed in thinking of everything as a preparation or training or making one fit -- for what? At any minute it is what we are and are doing, not what we plan to be and do that counts."
J.R.R. Tolkien in his 6 October 1940 letter to his son Michael Tolkien.
2. We have many ways using technology to be in touch, yet the larger question is are we really connected or are we simply more in touch? There is a difference.
Really? Were either of you bothered by the fact that it was interrupted by Aragorn et al.'s arrival in the corsair ships? I find that distracting every time I see it.
For the most part I'm not bothered by the modernizing of the language, although I would have dearly liked to have seen Éowyn called the WitchKing "foul dwimmerlaik" and have him respond that he would not slay her but rather would bear her away to the houses of lamentation, "where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
<shudder>
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
I gave myself the job of condensing all that. Not an easy job, no precious.
)
Just one?!
