Are video games harmful?

[sauronsfinger]

Eruname said that perhaps we are all doomed. i certainly hope not. We could be if we all just throw up our hands and say there is nothing that can really be done.

I do think that many are allowing themselves to be boxed into the corner labeled DOING NOTHING.

Everybody seems to agree that some kids spend way too much time on these games .... but ... it is their free choice and their parents are lousy parents in this regard.

Its good to face those sad facts of life. Now what?

Others have brought up other things that some person can do without harm and others seem to have trouble with. Somebody mentione beer.

If I go out and drink and act in a reckless and socially irresponsible manner, I can be arrested for a number of things without necessarily hurting or injuring anyone else.

So what can be done about the people who have antisocial behaviors and attitudes which are partially obtained from these games before they take the final step of hurting somebody? Right now - nothing.

As a society, do we just sit back and wait for the bomb to keep ticking waiting for the explosion so we can then act in those isolated incidences?

I agree that most people seem to be dealing with these game in an okay manner. But I am concerned about living in a society with a growing gamer subculture which may represent values and lifestyles that are not productive and can be harmful to others in society.

I would say to the gaming industry and community that you can hide your head in the sand on this and others will come up with the solution independent of you and impose it on you. The industry and gamers themselves should stop sailing down the Denial River and start taking this seriously before law makers do.

And Eruname -- I still think that the skills most people gain from these games are largely applicable only to these games. I see very little carryover in practical terms.

You also mention the American diet as cause for obesity. I think that is half the problem. Remember, you control weight two ways - what you take in and what you burn once it is in. Diet is important but equally so is daily exercise. And thus, another lead in to the evils of too much gaming.

[yovargas]

I very honestly think that all "we" can do is, if you think it's a problem with someone, say "Hey, I think you/your kid might be spending to much time in front of that box." Beyond that, it's out of your/our hands.

I see very little carryover in practical terms.

Do you see practical value in learning the dates of history events?

[vison]

Not really. And I had to learn them without having fun playing video games.

yovargas, I think vids are Spawn of Satan.

But, hey, I don't play them.

And I severely restrict the amount of time anyone plays them in my house. The kids can only play them on weekends, which boils down to a couple of hours on Sundays since they are running their guts out on a soccer pitch for most of Saturday.

[yovargas]

yovargas, I think vids are Spawn of Satan.

If I'd been able to get into the game-making business as I'd dreamed, I'd be the one spawning them, which I guess woulda made me Satan.

[sauronsfinger]

a knowledges of ones true self is indeed a positive thing

yovargas

there are different ways to act upon this ... you describe the actions of individuals... what about acting upon it as a society?

[truehobbit]

I'm curious, hobby, and I ask this seriously: do you morally oppose the war scenes in LOTR (book & movie)?

yov, I don't oppose showing war, as long as it's shown in a suitable way!
What I do oppose is showing war in such a way that it comes across as a cool bit of fun (zap those enemies!) or heartless planning of how to subjugate others.

I think that Tolkien didn't portray war in a way that made it appear cool or fun or merely a strategic exercise. I thought that actual battle didn't take up much room in the books (I know that others disagree - I've meant to do a count of sorts some time, but haven't done that yet) and that what fighting there is, is suitably grim and evil. (Ok, the line about the Rohirrim singing as they slew or so bugs me, but strangely I didn't notice it when I first read it in context, so I should just read it in context again, I think.)

PJ is another matter - yes, at times his portrayal of war was unsuitably "cool". There was a thread on TORC about "lines characters would never say" - IMO, talking only of single lines and leaving out complete character assassination, I think that Aragorn's "Let's hunt some Orc" carries the prize!

The question wasn't for me, but I'll still answer:

Do you see practical value in learning the dates of history events?

Other than training the memory, no. And you can train memory with more interesting activities as well, like learning poetry by heart. Of course, if you are interested in a historical period, you'll want to know dates in order to work with that knowledge. (For example, in the Mozart thread a while ago Jude mentioned two Mozart operas and to reply to him it was helpful for me that I knew which one of them was first. (I didn't know the exact years of them, though.) )
For general purposes it's enough to roughly know when things happened (you wouldn't want to make a complete fool of yourself in a conversation by placing an event in the wrong century, for example), but exact dates aren't necessary to know. That's what reference books are for!

So - what about that Concentration Camp game?

[yovargas]

what about acting upon it as a society?

I can't think of any way that I wouldn't judge more harmful than beneficial (eg. forms of censorship). If you have any ideas, feel free to share 'em.

EDIT to remind hobby that it was Tolkien who came up with the orc-killing contest! That only counts as one!

[The Angel]

Do you see practical value in learning the dates of history events?

Or learning to play the piano really well? What is the practical application, beyond playing the piano, of spending two or more hours a day practising the piano? And such behaviour is both taught and encouraged at school. Surely the person's time would be better spent going and doing good healthy activities.

So, we have a problem whereby people with addictive personalties can become harmfully addicted to gaming. I'll accept this. What can we do to solve it?

Well, what is done for other people with addiction problems? Rehab, interventions, support groups. I see no reason why such things cannot be set up for gaming. I suspect you'll find, though, that the number of people susceptable to gaming addictions are far fewer in number than alcoholics or other drug addicts. I have no data to back this up, just a hunch.

I'd regard this sort of thing as being as infinitely superior to censorship as AA is to prohibition.

I still think that the skills most people gain from these games are largely applicable only to these games. I see very little carryover in practical terms.

And yet in this thread you have also posted this:

I admit that I do not play these games. Never have and probably see no reason why I would in the future.

With all due respect, I think you can't really have it both ways like this. Those of us who have gamed have talked about why we find it a positive experience. I'll take your word on how teaching is if you take mine on how gaming is .

I've said this before, but I think I should repeat it, given such a nice example to go from.
I agree these games demand some thought exercise that can be considered useful in general. But my problem is that I wonder what kind of training they provide! Once you are faced with finding a solution to a problem like "how do I maximise efficiency while keeping costs down?" what kind of influence will it be on your thought procedures when the problem solving strategies you are familiar with involve
a) getting rid of anything that's in your way is ok
b) anything that's outside the given box of possibilities is not going to work (i.e. the point I mentioned earlier that finding solutions for a problem in a game is less about finding a solution but about finding the solution the game-writer had in mind, because anything he/she did not approve of or consider for a solution is not going to be among the working solutions for the game problem)

If I can ignore point b for a few minutes, I'd say argue that it teaches you to how to solve problems using the tools available, and that the principles of problem solving can be applied generically, and adapted to different situations. Furthermore, your point a does not, I think apply. You're assuming that someone who played Rome: Total War would take the "Total" approach to solving real world problems. I find this specious reasoning. People are good at discerning between the unreal world of video games and the real world around them, and as a consequence they're not about to recruit a legion of triarii and use them to crush those who oppose them, or take a similar, less facetious totalitarian approach.

To mention point b now, if there is only one solution to any given problem in a game and the gamer has to jump through a series of hoops to accomplish it, that is simply bad game design. Increasingly the technology is improving to the extent that we're seeing designers come up with problems and giving the player multiple possible solution. Consider an example: The player has to get through a door. A badly designed game would mean that the player had to go to a certain place and use a certain mcguffin for the door to open. A well designed game would allow the player to break the door down, maybe hack the security system and force the door to open, maybe find an alternate route around the door, engage another character in conversation and persuede them to give the player the key, pick that character's pocket and steal the key, kill the character and loot the key from their body. Some solutions will obviously be more amenable to some players, but the point is that the choice is up to the player, and the player should have to deal with in the in-game consequences of their actions.

Rome: Total War may have a highly miltaristic theme, but the goal of the game is achieving Roman domination, and this can be achieved through clever politicking, should you wish to play in that manner. A better example of this the venerable and brilliant Civilization series, which has a commendably wide range of potential player strategies, including developing your culture through the use of artists and scientists. Other civilizations in the game then become so impressed by your culture that they wish to join your civilzation and you win without a shot being fired. That's how Alys plays, with great success I may add. I'd also like to add that playing Rome as an aggressive expansionist is essentially role play. You are playing the role of what today we would regard as a war criminal. Is this any more or less dangerous that writing or reading a novel about one?

So, to sum up a somewhat rambling argument, games that force the player to think exactly like the game developer are bad games, and shouldn't be bought so the bad game developers run out of money and stop making bad games .

Above I said that we need to find out what level of use each of us considers abuse. Now, I find that taking the concept of "Total War" lightly enough to make a game of it already constitutes abuse, because I can't read that term without hearing, in my mind, Dr Goebbels yelling "do you want total war?" to the audience of the Berlin Sports Palace.

So, I'm thinking about whether there are other games that play around with subjects I personally would not consider suitable for games.

Certainly Total War as a concept has many negative connotations, however the title is intended as semi-ironic, referring to the detail of the simulation rather than any crop burning that may go on. The point is well made, however, but it's symptomatic of a culture throughout the west that somewhat bizarrely finds violence less offensive than sex. But that's another discussion.

You are a Jew in a Concentration camp (or maybe a gypsy or a communist, and maybe those different roles give you different skills) and it's your task to survive or even to escape.
That sounds like it might teach all sorts of really useful knowledge!
Is there such a game?
If not, should there be one? Would you play it?

I can think of only two vaguely similar examples; Escape from Castle Wolfenstein (the original Wolfenstein game that spawned games like Doom and Quake) and Escape from Colditz, based on the film of the same name. Both cases cast the player as a POW rather than someone like a Jew or a Gypsy, as both focussed on the action elements of such an escape.

A well made, reasonably complex role playing game about escape from a concentration camp, where you had to finely balance co-ordinating with other prisoners while staying under the guards' radar could be extremely fun however, if made with suitable aplomb. I'd certainly consider playing it.

It wouldn't, sadly, get released in Germany though, as German law, as far as I'm aware, prohibits all use of Nazi imagery within a video game.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Or learning to play the piano really well? What is the practical application, beyond playing the piano, of spending two or more hours a day practising the piano?

The making of beautiful music that other people can listen to? That seems like a pretty good practical application to me.

[sauronsfinger]

Angel
One can certainly not play the games but still observe the effect they have upon others such as my kids, students and others. I may not play the games but I do not live in a cave nor am I blind, deaf and dumb.

You talk about helping people with addictive personalities but that is the tip of the iceberg. What about the kids referred to in these studies who increase their tolerance for violence and are desensitized to the suffering of others through these games? What about the anti-social tendencies they sometimes foster in some people?

I would hope by this point in the thread we can all agree that many people can play these games and be perfectly fine. Other people are not so fortunate. There is a real question of what do we do with that second group and I am NOT merely talking about addictive personalities.

How much bad publicity does Grand Theft Auto bring the entire industry?

Is it worth it?

Would the world be a worse place to live in without it?

If the gaming industry and gamers do not do something about, outsiders will -- and you will not like that one little bit.

[yovargas]

How much bad publicity does Grand Theft Auto bring the entire industry?

Lots.

Is it worth it? Would the world be a worse place to live in without it?

Yes and yes.

I'm not sure how relevant this is to this conversation and pretty damn sure that you don't care but:

I hated GTA, partially for its cheap misoginy and immature glorification of ganster cultures, but mostly because I thought it was a bad game. However, the gameplay ideas behind the game were amazing and revolutionary and have had a very major impact on the industry. I do believe that games are gradually working their way towards being a legitimate artform and IMO GTA's contribution will be significant, positive, and long-lasting (once we get past the current fad of "thug" games and lame softcore sexually).

(For those who have no clue what I mean by that, a helpful analogy might be a revolutionary new cinematography technique...used to shoot B-movies and softcore porn Nonetheless, the new techniques will take the form further).

Oh, and for the record, GTA received the video game equivalent of an R-rating so kids weren't supposed to be playing it. (A general problem, I think, is that many people still think video games are "just for kids" when the average gamer is now in their 20s, so companies are now targetting that market).



It's worth noting that we're discussing two separate issues here, the moral aspects of gaming and just the general issue of taking up two much time. They're separate issues that should be discussed distinctly from one another.

[Erunáme]

Eruname said that perhaps we are all doomed

Ummm, not quite. I said that we're doomed if common sense can't even be relied upon. If people are lacking something this simple then there's not much that can be done is there?

Others have brought up other things that some person can do without harm and others seem to have trouble with. Somebody mentione beer.

If I go out and drink and act in a reckless and socially irresponsible manner, I can be arrested for a number of things without necessarily hurting or injuring anyone else.

Not the same thing at all. You aren't hurting anyone but yourself if you sit in your house playing games all day long. A correct analogy would be sitting at home and getting yourself drunk and acting reckless in your own house...which you are free to do as long as you don't harm someone.

So what can be done about the people who have antisocial behaviors and attitudes which are partially obtained from these games before they take the final step of hurting somebody?

Come on...there aren't masses of gamers hurting people and I highly doubt there will ever be. The people who go out and hurt people are the ones who were already messed up in the first place. They would hurt someone regardless of games.

It seems to me you want everyone to live life the way you think it should be lived. You seem to want to tell them how to live. I think you have no right especially when your rights are not being infringed upon.

But I am concerned about living in a society with a growing gamer subculture which may represent values and lifestyles that are not productive and can be harmful to others in society.

Exactly what values and lifestyles are you talking about? The only one I see is easily addicted to a game and spending hours playing it...sounds a lot like people who post on message boards doesn't it? I'm sorry, but that is silly.

You also mention the American diet as cause for obesity. I think that is half the problem. Remember, you control weight two ways - what you take in and what you burn once it is in. Diet is important but equally so is daily exercise. And thus, another lead in to the evils of too much gaming.

Again, you'll burn more calories playing a game than you will reading. I remember seeing a show about gamers and they strapped a guy to a heartrate monitor and checked out his adreneline and stress levels. His heart rate got up to 130 I believe. I digress though. Yes daily exercise is important but I really think diet is the biggest culprit. I've started calorie counting and have had my eyes opened to how awful some foods are. Again, Alatar pointed out that people from all around the world play games yet it is mainly Americans that are overweight. The problem isn't the games.

I think I'm not going to post in this thread anymore because you mostly seem to be preaching and avoiding many of the good points that several people are making...plus I really don't like arguing.

[yovargas]

...sounds a lot like people who post on message boards doesn't it?

...plus I really don't like arguing.

But you're so good at it!

[anthriel]

My son LOVES games. He would play them 24/7 if I let him. He's rail thin.. in fact, sometimes I'm certain it's the very difficulty pulling himself away from the games that keeps him from eating. He's prioritizing, and eating ain't winning.



Sooooo.... I limit him. He doesn't get to play games (or watch tv ) on school days. He has to finish his chores and other obligations before he gets to play games on any other day. Today is a half day for the kids, and he's in there playing right now, with a buddy... so I'm not too fussy with strict adherence to the school day rule, I guess.

But we went to the stables, first, and he and his friend spent two hours messing with horses, climbing trees and running like little maniacs before coming back here to glue themselves to the monitor.

Too restrictive? He thinks so. Not restrictive enough? My mom thinks so. Just right? Who knows.

There are always people who come into these discussions saying the industry should be able to put out whatever crap it wants, and the parents should be good enough parents to filter out the bad from the good.

I just hope I'm a good enough parent.

[Erunáme]

Posting once more:

You are a good enough parent Anthy. You are an excellent, caring one who's raising well-rounded children.

[anthriel]

Eru, you just brought tears to my eyes.



I sure hope you are right.

[sauronsfinger]

So is this thread is only for people who agree with the thoughts of the originator or who will be cowed and swayed by their arguments? Lets all hope not.

Eruname
With all due respect and no malice intended, allow me to tell you my Pet Peeve of the Month ---- it is people who post on message boards giving you an earful of their opinions about you --- then they say "I'm outa here and don't want to talk about it anymore". Okay.

And this is not the first time you have done this with me. It has happened several times over several subjects.

yovargas


here are your latest musings on the topic

I'm not sure how relevant this is to this conversation and pretty damn sure that you don't care but:

I hated GTA, partially for its cheap misoginy and immature glorification of ganster cultures, but mostly because I thought it was a bad game. However, the gameplay ideas behind the game were amazing and revolutionary and have had a very major impact on the industry. I do believe that games are gradually working their way towards being a legitimate artform and IMO GTA's contribution will be significant, positive, and long-lasting (once we get past the current fad of "thug" games and lame softcore sexually).

So you are "pretty damn sure" that I do not care. Well I did and read what you wrote and thought about. So I guess you were incorrect in your being damn sure.

Could not that same amazing game play that you praised in GTA been just as praise-worthy is some other game that did not have all the evil content that you found objectionable? Was there something special and only native to GTA that made it the only possible user of this technology?

And I do not share your hope or belief that this is any kind of fad. The people who gravitate to this sort of thug entertainment most likely are fans of that genre and will only gravitate to newer and better (in their opinion) versions of the same gutter culture that GTA glorifies.

If you think that GTA will leave behind a positive legacy I do think you are too deeply immersed into that sub-culture and do not realize the loathing that most normal non-gamers have for it. It is the poster boy for everything that is negative about the industry. I read about the positive games that Alatar describes and i say 'that sounds like a good thing'. But then GTA comes along again and is totally irredeemable in my opinion.

The gaming industry may indeed have some wonderful products. Compared to food , there may be some steak and lobster out there. But GTA is the aftermath of junkfood that is flushed down the bowl the next day. The industry and gamers should realize that before GTA is allowed to hang laws or regulations around their collective necks that they do not want.

[Erunáme]

Eruname
With all due respect and no malice intended, allow me to tell you my Pet Peeve of the Month ---- it is people who post on message boards giving you an earful of their opinions about you --- then they say "I'm outa here and don't want to talk about it anymore". Okay.

And this is not the first time you have done this with me. It has happened several times over several subjects.

I'm sorry sf, but I will not allow myself to be dragged into an endless debate that will only aggravate me. I'll say my peice when I want and then leave when I want. I really should stay out altogether since I don't like getting aggravated and start to dread the other party's response.

Honestly, there is nothing wrong with what I've done. I made my opinions known and that's it. Why continue on? Especially when you don't like the other person's debating style very much? It's just not worth it to me.

[yovargas]

Was there something special and only native to GTA that made it the only possible user of this technology?

Nothing except that it was the first to do several things. I wish that legacy belonged to a better game but I'm giving credit where credit is due.

If you think that GTA will leave behind a positive legacy I do think you are too deeply immersed into that sub-culture and do not realize the loathing that most normal non-gamers have for it.

No, I just have different priorities. To follow my previous analogy, if a horrible movie uses an amazing new and unique cinematographic technique, most people will just see a horrible movie and move on. But people who care about cinematography will see a horrible movie AND the new artistic possibilities that have opened up to them. I'm quite aware that people who don't care about gaming won't care about innovative gameplay advances, which is why I said "pretty damn sure that you don't care".

[sauronsfinger]

You gravely underestimate me then yovargas.
I do care.

So if I read you correct, the thug nature of the game had nothing to do with these amazing gaming advances that could have been made with any subject matter.

You give credit where credit is due. Fine.

Why continue to defend that which threatens to bring down or to handcuff an industry and entertainment form which you clearly love?