Dune

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Let us know what you think!

[Túrin Turambar]

Saw Part 2 this evening. Unsurprisingly, a heavy meal of a film that will take some time to digest. It definitely hits the combination of visual spectacle we’d expect from Denis Villeneuve following Part 1 with an unsettling otherworldliness appropriate for the source material. As an adaptation it hits all the key notes of the book, with some interesting changes that will trigger a debate among fans. Will give some more detail later.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Thanks, Túrin! I'll be interested in hearing more about the "interesting changes." One thing that I found in my LOTR experience, is that I appreciated knowing about the changes in advance, and (despite Tolkien's dislike of it), Dune is one the few works that I have a level of knowledge of and attachment that at least is somewhat comparable to LOTR.

[Túrin Turambar]

To give the high-level review without explicit spoilers, the film really succeeds on the foundations. The script is solid. It has some excellent acting. We knew Timothee Chalamet was able to play Paul, but he was also able to summon the gravitas to play the war leader Muad’dib, and his transformation is striking. The veteran actors, like Charlotte Rampling and Stellan Skarsgaard, give weight to the scenes they’re in. Austin Butler really threw himself into Feyd Rautha, and I expect we’ll see more of him on screen as his talent is recognised. I wasn’t quite sold on Zendaya as Chani from her brief appearance in Part 1, but she’s genuinely compelling. I’m probably a little bit put off by the way she sounds just like a young 2020s American woman, whereas some of the other actors speak in a way that is deliberately mid-Atlantic, non-specific, stylised or foreign-sounding to place themselves in an alien universe (admittedly some actually do have foreign accents so it wasn’t a creative choice). Like most other reviewers, I found Christopher Walken an odd choice for the Emperor. The character has been built up as dangerous and sinister, and Christopher Walken sounds just like Christopher Walken in every other film.

The sound and visuals are amazing. The scene where Paul first summons and rides the sandworm stayed with me after I left the theatre, as did the gladiator arena on Giedi Prime, which the film creatively gives a black sun and a very harsh monochromatic colour scheme as a result. Each planet has its own colour palette. The balance of CGI and practical effects seems to be dead-on. The film cost a modest (by the standards of a blockbuster today) $190 million, which it puts to great use. It will make a good profit, which is a great thing for the film industry.

In the terms of the changes from the Book –

***SPOILERS***

The main ones give a larger and more active role to a handful of key characters. Chani has a character arc where she is sceptical of the whole idea of the Lisan Al-Gaib and wants Paul to be an ordinary Fremen warrior. Jessica deliberately promotes the prophecy to rally the Fremen to fight, making her morally shady and putting Jessica and Chani in conflict. Paul is initially reluctant to take up the mantle of Kwisach Haderach and Lisan Al-Gaib but does so under military pressure, making something of a Fasutian pact, and this becomes the central conflict of the film. The Bene Gesserit make more appearances and have more of a direct impact on the plot, and Princess Irulan and Margot Fenring have a larger role. Much of this was understandable, as it put characters to more use and made them more active in the story. One of my criticisms of Part 1 was that the secondary cast was underdeveloped given the length of the film, and this is less of a problem here.

Other characters are changed or absent. Aliya is unborn but communicates in certain ways (the details are complex). There is no Leto II, as events seem to move much faster in the film than the book. Thufir Hawat vanishes inexplicably. Jamis' wife and children aren't in the film either.

Feyd Rautha appears later than I expected, and I think it would have been better to introduce him earlier as the film kind-of pulls one main antagonist and then produces another like a rabbit out of a hat. The arena scene plays differently to the book, and there is a new sub-plot involving the Bene Gessrit. He is a highly-effective antagonist played as a direct foil to Paul, but he could have been built up from the start.

There weren’t many changes I thought were completely inexplicable, though, and I would say it succeeds as an adaptation, both in content and presentation. And collectively, the two films are a massive cinematic achievement.

[RoseMorninStar]

I just saw Dune1 (yeah, I know, a little late to the party). I plan to read the book (again) as it's been many years, then watch 1 again, then on to Dune2.

From an artistic point of view, I was struck by the tragic beauty of Oscar Isaac as Leto Atreides as he was about to die which reminded me of a Caravaggio (painting).

[Snowdog]

To give the high-level review without explicit spoilers, the film really succeeds on the foundations. The script is solid. It has some excellent acting. We knew Timothee Chalamet was able to play Paul, but he was also able to summon the gravitas to play the war leader Muad’dib, and his transformation is striking. The veteran actors, like Charlotte Rampling and Stellan Skarsgaard, give weight to the scenes they’re in. Austin Butler really threw himself into Feyd Rautha, and I expect we’ll see more of him on screen as his talent is recognised. I wasn’t quite sold on Zendaya as Chani from her brief appearance in Part 1, but she’s genuinely compelling. I’m probably a little bit put off by the way she sounds just like a young 2020s American woman, whereas some of the other actors speak in a way that is deliberately mid-Atlantic, non-specific, stylised or foreign-sounding to place themselves in an alien universe (admittedly some actually do have foreign accents so it wasn’t a creative choice). Like most other reviewers, I found Christopher Walken an odd choice for the Emperor. The character has been built up as dangerous and sinister, and Christopher Walken sounds just like Christopher Walken in every other film.

The sound and visuals are amazing. The scene where Paul first summons and rides the sandworm stayed with me after I left the theatre, as did the gladiator arena on Giedi Prime, which the film creatively gives a black sun and a very harsh monochromatic colour scheme as a result. Each planet has its own colour palette. The balance of CGI and practical effects seems to be dead-on. The film cost a modest (by the standards of a blockbuster today) $190 million, which it puts to great use. It will make a good profit, which is a great thing for the film industry.

In the terms of the changes from the Book –

***SPOILERS***

The main ones give a larger and more active role to a handful of key characters. Chani has a character arc where she is sceptical of the whole idea of the Lisan Al-Gaib and wants Paul to be an ordinary Fremen warrior. Jessica deliberately promotes the prophecy to rally the Fremen to fight, making her morally shady and putting Jessica and Chani in conflict. Paul is initially reluctant to take up the mantle of Kwisach Haderach and Lisan Al-Gaib but does so under military pressure, making something of a Fasutian pact, and this becomes the central conflict of the film. The Bene Gesserit make more appearances and have more of a direct impact on the plot, and Princess Irulan and Margot Fenring have a larger role. Much of this was understandable, as it put characters to more use and made them more active in the story. One of my criticisms of Part 1 was that the secondary cast was underdeveloped given the length of the film, and this is less of a problem here.

Other characters are changed or absent. Aliya is unborn but communicates in certain ways (the details are complex). There is no Leto II, as events seem to move much faster in the film than the book. Thufir Hawat vanishes inexplicably. Jamis' wife and children aren't in the film either.

Feyd Rautha appears later than I expected, and I think it would have been better to introduce him earlier as the film kind-of pulls one main antagonist and then produces another like a rabbit out of a hat. The arena scene plays differently to the book, and there is a new sub-plot involving the Bene Gessrit. He is a highly-effective antagonist played as a direct foil to Paul, but he could have been built up from the start.

There weren’t many changes I thought were completely inexplicable, though, and I would say it succeeds as an adaptation, both in content and presentation. And collectively, the two films are a massive cinematic achievement.

That pretty much sums up my thoughts on it. If one is going to make an adaptation of a book, Denis Villeneuve does Dune right, whereas Peter Jackson did Lord of the Rings rather shoddily, which appears even moreso in the shadow of the two recent Dune movies.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

This isn't the place for this debate, but I feel compelled to say that whatever one may think about Peter Jackson's decisions in adapting the source material, the incredible care and detail that he and his team showed in some many different ways renders the judgment that "Peter Jackson did Lord of the Rings rather shoddily" questionable at best.

We now return to our regularly scheduled Dune discussion, already in process.

[Frelga]

PJ was pioneering in treating a fantasy world like a real place. As for Dune, I haven't seen part 2 yet, but I wonder if the 1st movie takes the source material a bit too seriously.

[RoseMorninStar]

From an artistic perspective, (set, design, costuming, location, etc..) I appreciated the attention to detail and the 'treating fantasy like a real place' that PJ did with Lord of the Rings. Cinematic innovation has come a long way in 20+ years.

[RoseMorninStar]

A YouTuber I sometimes watch did a video this week on Tolkien & Dune.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Thanks for sharing that; I really liked it a lot. In fact, she is the only other person that I have ever seen look at another work through the prism of Tolkien's essay "On Fairy-stories." I was very impressed!

[Túrin Turambar]

Dune 2 has passed $380 million, so it's now broken even on its modest $190 million budget. Which is great news for cinemas, Legendary, Warner Bros, and the industry generally, which had suffered series of bombs through 2023 (Barbie and Oppenheimer being high-profile exceptions). Interestingly, it's also guaranteed to blow past the $434 million earned by Part 1, which was enough to make the film profitable and get a sequel greenlit but nowhere near a bonanza. Of course, Part 1 came out during COVID. People are more willing to go to the cinema now, but I also suspect Part 1 won fans on streaming who've decided to see the sequel. Particularly among people who weren't enthusiastic about esoteric sci-fi and were lukewarm on Arrival and Bladerunner 2049, but were impressed by Dune. If I hadn't read the book I'd probably be in that boat. It reminds me a bit of the LotR trilogy, where each new film did better at the box office than its predecessor. I suspect there were people who initially brushed off sword and sorcery fantasy, particularly given what a typical 80s or 90s fantasy film was like, but changed their mind after they saw FotR on VHS or DVD and went off to the theatre.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Denis Villeneuve has said that he wants to make it a trilogy by filming Dune Messiah.

[Alatar]

I really hope he does Children of Dune because otherwise it feels like ending Star Wars with Empire...

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I agree but based on the interview on saw it didn't sound like it. Even though Frank Herbert said that Dune Messiah was intended to be a bridge to Children of Dune.

[Túrin Turambar]

I've been re-watching the extended 1984 Dune (I won't call it the David Lynch version as he disowned it) and while the 2021/24 films are far superior there's actually a handful of things I think the 1984 version does better. Despite having less time to work with it does more with some secondary characters, particularly Hawat, Yueh and Piter de Vries. Piter de Vries in particular is better in the 1984 version, as he gets his sinister and creepy moments (e.g. being the one to kill Yueh). And Brad Dourif gives a memorable performance. Max von Sydow has more mystique and gravitas as Kynes. The Sardaukar are potentially more intimidating, although I have no idea why they wear boiler suits and throw people around. It includes Harah and Jamis' children. Unsurprisingly it's more efficient with plot given the shorter run time, but I don't feel it loses any of the important narrative episodes. I will remain forever grateful, though, that it isn't the Dune on the silver screen anymore.

Finally, I'm still not quite sold on Christopher Walken as the Emperor. On that note, someone put this on Youtube before Part 2 came out, which is - interesting:

[Frelga]

Dune but make it Southern.

[RoseMorninStar]

[RoseMorninStar]

Interesting video on the religious psychology in Dune.

[Maria]

Last week I was on a long car ride with my husband. The audiobook I'd picked out as a possible listen for the drive wasn't good enough to continue- so we decided to go with the book he was listening to, "Dune Messiah". I figured I wouldn't have any trouble dropping into the story in the middle, but I was wrong. It's been a long time since I read or listened to the Dune books and when Paul said

Hidden text.

that 60 billion people had been killed in his name... the fact just crashed into my brain and kept echoing there. That's horrific. I don't care what the backstory is, I can't sympathize with a protagonist with that sort of body count. I don't know how I just skimmed over that before.
60 billion! and 19 planets sterilized. Nothing can justify that.

So I sort of stopped listening. My fixation on that sentence may just have ruined my enjoyment of those books. Jumping in cold, so to speak, wasn't a good idea, I guess.