News from Bree and other random discussions

[kzer_za]

Okay, let me bring up something that's always disturbed me, right from my first reading of LOTR. When Théoden meets Ghân-buri-Ghân, one of Ghân's terms is that they will "leave Wild Men alone in the woods and do not hunt them like beasts any more.

"Any more"??? Does that mean that the Rohirrim have actually hunted them like beasts?

This has always bothered me.

Yes, and one of Aragorn's first actions as king is to give the Druedain independence and make it clear this will be enforced by law. A good indicator that Aragorn was a wise and just ruler, contra the occasional (dumb) talking point that he's just a dude with divine right and we don't know what kind of king he would actually be.

[Jude]

So I'm reading The Grey Annals, from The War of the Jewels, and I notice that Galadriel is sometimes spelled like that, and sometimes as "Galaðriel". (In case you don't know, the ð is an extinct letter that had the sound of a voiced "th", as in "the". The name of the letter is "eth".)

I wonder if that was meant to be her proper name, and "Galadriel" is just the Westronized version? In which case, in a dramatization, she should be pronounced "Galaðriel" when the elves are speaking to one another, and "Galadriel" when speaking in Westron.

More bombshells: the dialogue between her and Melian, where she gets questioned about the arrival of the Noldor, and her carefully avoiding any mention of the Kinslaying, and ending the conversation with (paraphrased) "you may learn more, but it won't be from me".

I've always wondered how complicit she was in the Kinslaying. Completely innocent shocked bystander? Enthusiastic participant? Something in-between?

[kzer_za]

Galadriel's backstory is one of the most unstable and uncontradictory parts of the legendarium. The versions tend to point to "something in between" though - not actively participating, but willing to go along with everything that happened after, benefiting from the stolen ships, and probably not raising much voice against the kinslaying after. Whether she actually watched at Alqualondë while it happened, I don't think that much detail is provided but it would make sense. There's a late revision where Tolkien wants to make her more innocent, but it's hard to know how much to make of some of Tolkien's late concepts.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I've always wondered how complicit she was in the Kinslaying. Completely innocent shocked bystander? Enthusiastic participant? Something in-between?

Depends on which story you read. And when (or what mood you are in when you read it ).

[Jude]

Well, in the current story she's definitely conflicted. And also in the ensuing dialogue between Melian and Thingol where she tells him (paraphrasing again) "She's hiding something."

The Grey Annals has some juicy stuff in it...

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Indeed it does!

Tolkien kept vacilating back and forth about how culpable Galadriel was for the revolt of the Noldor or whether she was more purely good, and whether that she was actually under a ban to return to Undying Lands, or chose not to because she felt it was her duty to "save" Middle-earth.

In a letter written in 1967 he wrote: "The Exiles were allowed to return - save for a few chief actors in the rebellion, of whom at the time of The Lord of the Rings only Galadriel remained. At the time of her Lament in Lórien she believed this to be perennial, as long as the Earth endured. Hence she concludes her lament with a wish or prayer that Frodo may as a special grace be granted a purgatorial (but not penal) sojourn in Eressëa, the solitary isle in sight of Aman, though for her the way is closed. Her prayer was granted - but also her personal ban was lifted, in reward for her services against Sauron, and above all for her rejection of the temptation to take the Ring when offered to her. So at the end we see her taking ship."

But in draft of the story about the Elessar printed in UT and written around the same period of time: "How otherwise can it be for the Eldar, if they cling to Middle-earth?" said Celebrimbor. "Will you then pass over Sea?"

"Nay," she said. "Angrod is gone, and Aegnor is gone, and Felagund is no more. Of Finarfin's children I am the last. But my heart is still proud. What wrong did the golden house of Finarfin do that I should ask the pardon of the Valar, or be content with an isle in the sea whose native land was Aman the Blessed? Here I am mightier."

In Road Goes Ever On and On, published in1968 (which was mentioned recently in the translation game thread), he explicitly says: "After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so."

But later Tolkien moved more and more towards abandoned this idea.

In the Shibboleth of Fëanor (written "1968 or later") he writes: "she had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage... In him she perceived a darkness that she hated and feared, though she did not perceive that the shadow of the same evil had fallen upon the minds of all the Noldor, and upon her own.... she joined the rebellion against the Valar who commanded them to stay; and once she had set foot upon that road of exile she would not relent, but rejected the last message of the Valar, and came under the Doom of Mandos. Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Fëanor in defence of her mother's kin, she did not turn back. Her pride was unwilling to return, a defeated suppliant for pardon; but now she burned with desire to follow Fëanor with her anger to whatever lands he might come, and to thwart him in all ways that she could. Pride still moved her when, at the end of the Elder Days after the final overthrow of Morgoth, she refused the pardon of the Valar for all who had fought against him, and remained in Middle-earth. It was not until two long ages more had passed, when at last all that she had desired in her youth came to her hand, the Ring of Power and the dominion of Middle-earth which she had dreamed, that her wisdom was full grown and she rejected it, and passing the last test departed from Middle-earth for ever."

Then in a letter to Mrs Ruth Austin on January 25, 1971 (a couple of years before his death) he writes "I was particularly interested in your remarks about Galadriel. .... I think it is true that I owe much of this character to Christian and Catholic teaching and imagination about Mary, but actually Galadriel was a penitent: in her youth a leader in the rebellion against the Valar (the angelic guardians). At the end of the First Age she proudly refused forgiveness or permission to return. She was pardoned because of her resistance to the final and overwhelming temptation to take the Ring for herself."

Then in last month of his life in 1973 Tolkien completely abandoned the extremely flawed Galadriel: "She did indeed wish to depart from Valinor and to go into the wide world of Middle-earth for the exercise of her talents; for "being brilliant in mind and swift in action she had early absorbed all of what she was capable of the teaching which the Valar thought fit to give the Eldar," and she felt confined in the tutelage of Aman. This desire of Galadriel's was, it seems, known to Manwë, and he had not forbidden her; but nor had she been given formal leave to depart. Pondering what she might do Gala­driel's thoughts turned to the ships of the Teleri, and she went for a while to dwell with her mother's kindred in Alqualondë. There she met Celeborn, who is here again a Telerin prince, the grandson of Olwë of Alqualondë and thus her close kinsman. Together they planned to build a ship and sail in it to Middle-earth; and they were about to seek leave from the Valar for their venture when Melkor fled from Valmar and returning with Ungoliant destroyed the light of the Trees. In Fëanor's revolt that followed the Darkening of Valinor Galadriel had no part: indeeed she with Celeborn fought heroically in defence of Alqualondë against the assault of the Noldor, and Celeborn's ship was saved from them. Galadriel, despairing now of Valinor and horrified by the violence and cruelty of Fëanor, set sail into the darkness without waiting for Manwë's leave, which would undoubtedly have been withheld in that hour, however legitimate her desire in itself. It was thus that she came under the ban set upon all departure, and Valinor was shut against her return.... when they received the permission of the Valar to return into the West they rejected it."

Much of this is not only at odds with the Grey Annals story that you are reading but even material that was already published such as LOTR Appendix B and The Road Goes Ever On and On where Celeborn is a Sinda and Galadriel is a rebel leader. And moreover, none of the things she says in Fellowship of the Ring makes any sense if we take this late story as canon. Galadriel was ‘unstained’: she had committed no evil deeds. She was an enemy of Fëanor. She did not reach Middle-earth with the other Noldor, but independently. Her reasons for desiring to go to Middle-earth were legitimate, and she would have been permitted to depart, but for the misfortune that before she set out the revolt of Fëanor broke out, and she became involved in the desperate measure of Manwë, and the ban on all emigration.

[Jude]

Whoa - I guess the answer to my question is not "or", but "and".

Speaking of The Fellowship of the Ring, there's something that's puzzled me even before I started reading alternate versions in HOME - right after she passes the test, she says she will diminish, and go into the West. Then, later on, she says in her song, that Valinor is lost to her for ever. Taken by itself, I understood her earlier comment to mean that her ban was lifted at that moment, and she was aware of it the moment it was lifted. And, taken by itself, I understood her later comment to mean that either it took some messengers from Valinor to arrive to inform her, or it was not lifted until she had done further work in the war against Sauron.

Either I'm misunderstanding one of the quotes, this is an inconsistency within a single narrative.

[Alatar]

Or it just sounded cool....

[Inanna]

Reading along and loving it.

[RoseMorninStar]

I've not read all of the texts you are referring to Jude (but perhaps I should). How does the saying go? The victors (or at least the survivors) get to write 'history'.

A famous author once wrote, " ..As a story, I think it is good that there should be a lot of things unexplained (especially if an explanation actually exists); and I have perhaps from this point of view erred in trying to explain too much, and give too much past history.
(...)
And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are."
Letters #144

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Whoa - I guess the answer to my question is not "or", but "and".

Speaking of The Fellowship of the Ring, there's something that's puzzled me even before I started reading alternate versions in HOME - right after she passes the test, she says she will diminish, and go into the West. Then, later on, she says in her song, that Valinor is lost to her for ever. Taken by itself, I understood her earlier comment to mean that her ban was lifted at that moment, and she was aware of it the moment it was lifted. And, taken by itself, I understood her later comment to mean that either it took some messengers from Valinor to arrive to inform her, or it was not lifted until she had done further work in the war against Sauron.

Either I'm misunderstanding one of the quotes, this is an inconsistency within a single narrative.

Actually, there is (at least arguably) not an inconsistency between the two statements. While there is some deviance even on this point, generally speaking the Exiles (and other Elves, in addition to the Ringbears who also sailed West from the Grey Havens), did not return to Valinor, they returned to Tol Eressëa. So both Galadriel's statement that she would diminish and go into the West, and her statement that Valinor is lost to her for ever, could both be true without contradicting each other.

[Jude]

Ah, hadn't thought of that. That makes sense, actually.

[Jude]

While browsing history books, I came across this unexpected one:

The Real Middle Earth: A History of the Dark Ages that Inspired Tolkien by Brian Bates

An engaging popular history of the magically enchanting early-English civilization on which Tolkien based the world of The Lord of the Rings. Now reissued with a fresh cover look. J.R.R. Tolkien readily admitted that the concept of Middle-earth was not his own invention. An Old English term for the Dark Age world, it was always assumed that the importance of magic in this world existed only in Tolkien's works. In The Real Middle Earth, Professor Brian Bates reveals the vivid truth about this historical culture. Behind the stories we know of Dark Age kings and queens, warriors and battles, lies the hidden history of Middle-earth, a world of magic, mystery and destiny. Fiery dragons were seen to fly across the sky, monsters haunted the marshes, and elves fired poisoned arrows. Wizards cast healing spells, wise trees gave blessings, and omens foretold the deaths of kings. The very landscape itself was enchanted and the world imbued with a life force. Repressed by a millennium of Christianity, this belief system all but disappeared, leaving only faint traces in folk memory and fairy tales. In this remarkable book, Professor Brian Bates has drawn on the latest archaeological findings to reconstruct the imaginative world of our past, revealing a culture with insights that may yet help us understand our own place in the world.

Does anyone know anything about this book and/or this author? It looks interesting enough for me to check it out...

[RoseMorninStar]

This sounds vaguely familiar.. not that I've read it, but that I've read about somewhere.

oooh.. our library consortium has it (and I've requested it).

[Jude]

Let me know what you think!

(Although there’s a chance I might just go ahead and buy it without waiting)

[RoseMorninStar]

I've just begun reading, 'The Real Middle Earth: A History of the Dark Ages that Inspired Tolkien' by Brian Bates and, from what I can tell so far, the full title describes it quite well. I like history, but I'm no historian so I can't speak from a scholarly point of view, but it is interesting.

[Jude]

I've just begun reading, 'The Real Middle Earth: A History of the Dark Ages that Inspired Tolkien' by Brian Bates and, from what I can tell so far, the full title describes it quite well. I like history, but I'm no historian so I can't speak from a scholarly point of view, but it is interesting.

Did you finish it? Would you recommend?

Actually, I logged onto this thread to post this question: the entry for years 500 - 597 of the First Age, in "The Tale of Years" in "The War of the Jewels" says this:

Ancalagon is cast down by Eärendil and all save two of the dragons are destroyed.

Who are the two dragons? Would I be right in assuming one of them was Smaug? Who was the other?

Okay, that was three questions

[N.E. Brigand]

I've just begun reading, 'The Real Middle Earth: A History of the Dark Ages that Inspired Tolkien' by Brian Bates and, from what I can tell so far, the full title describes it quite well. I like history, but I'm no historian so I can't speak from a scholarly point of view, but it is interesting.

Did you finish it? Would you recommend?

Actually, I logged onto this thread to post this question: the entry for years 500 - 597 of the First Age, in "The Tale of Years" in "The War of the Jewels" says this:

Ancalagon is cast down by Eärendil and all save two of the dragons are destroyed.

Who are the two dragons? Would I be right in assuming one of them was Smaug? Who was the other?

Okay, that was three questions

Scatha? But if so, then wouldn't Scatha have to be female? Because that dragon was killed by Fram some 500-600 years before a "cold drake" killed Dáin I.

[RoseMorninStar]

I've just begun reading, 'The Real Middle Earth: A History of the Dark Ages that Inspired Tolkien' by Brian Bates and, from what I can tell so far, the full title describes it quite well. I like history, but I'm no historian so I can't speak from a scholarly point of view, but it is interesting.

Did you finish it? Would you recommend?

I did not finish reading it, it wasn't what I thought it would be and it didn't capture my interest. But of course that's just me, I do not wish to imply the book is good or bad, just not for me.

[RoseMorninStar]

I've been reading a fictional book which mentions the old Celtic/Gaelic/Welsh/Breton legend of Ys, King Gradlon/Gralon and his daughter Princess Dahut. The stories regard the founding of Brittany by Celtic people fleeing the Isles. It's a tale I'm not familiar with but it also mentions another legend with a Conan (Saint) Meriadoc who was venerated as the ancestor of the Rohans (St. Meriadoc was the father of King Gradlon). That can't be coincidence but I've never heard of these in connection with LOTR or have I missed something? Is anyone else familiar with these legends?