Russia's Invasion of Ukraine

[Sunsilver]

Yes. As a rule, I'm not a fan of using violence as a solution, but sometimes, it's the only thing a bully understands!

(And I know you will disagree, as is your right...)

[Frelga]

Yes.

[RoseMorninStar]

Thank you for your reply Laly. I didn't so much mean that it was some random BIPOC's job to 'explain things to me'. I do my own research too, but there are some insights one can only learn from the experience of someone who has experienced something.

I didn't say you did expect random BIPOCs to explain things to you, nor did I say or imply that you don't do your own research. <scratches head> I just wanted to clear that up since I feel you misunderstood my post. With that, though, I'll leave it be because I feel like I'm saying one thing but it's not coming across how I'm intending it.

Laly, no worries. The issue might be that I have 2 conversations I'm trying to balance .. you (all) on one side & my friend (who is still not speaking to me) on the other. I know where she is coming from, but unless she explains something to me that she thinks I SHOULD KNOW but am missing I'm afraid this won't be resolved. My friend has a beautiful baby grandson whom she loves to bits. He is multi-racial and she sees a frightening future for him due to nothing other than the color of his skin and she has a very good point. She sees it (the prospects for her grandson's less than rosy future) play out every time there is a refugee/migrant issue around the world, or how we support (or not) or otherwise treat inhabitants of countries who are not white. Or the statistics for violence/incarceration here in the US. Look no further than the treatment of children at our Southern border. She asks why she does not see the same support/compassion for those people. That there were reports of black/brown people not being allowed on trains to leave Ukraine supports her point.

*edited for grammar error.

[RoseMorninStar]

Yes. As a rule, I'm not a fan of using violence as a solution, but sometimes, it's the only thing a bully understands!

(And I know you will disagree, as is your right...)

I like Zelenskyy, but my opinion is generally speaking not necessarily in personal reference to him. I get the urge to respond to the heckler with violence/'punching him in the nose'. I think that is pretty natural. When someone hurts us we want to lash out. I have come to see that as 'taking the bait' and giving them (the heckler) exactly what they wanted. In doing so the heckler wins. They got exactly what they came for and they revel in this. It makes me think of someone like Trump. I wouldn't give him the satisfaction.

While I was cooking yesterday I overheard an episode of 'Seinfeld' where Jerry (a stand-up comedian) is being heckled. I didn't see/hear the beginning of the episode so I'm not sure if it was actual heckling in person or he was heckled in a printed review but what he chose to do was go to the person's office and heckle them in return in person. As you can imagine a whole series of weird silly stuff ensues and the heckler comes out on top with a job promotion. Life often isn't fair. Or nice.

[Frelga]

[Frelga]

So this point came up on Twitter.

The Biden team is saying out loud "if you have a nuclear weapon we will not do anything to stop you"

Iran is listening.

I am still debating to what extent I agree with it

[Sunsilver]

Horrible, Frelga! (referring to pictures of the dead)

Now, this surprised me! A Canadian-Ukrainian battalion!

[N.E. Brigand]

In the past hour, three different news outlets (Washington Post, Financial Times, and New York Times) have published variations on the same story based on sources in the U.S. government: Russia has asked China for military and financial assistance in the past two weeks.

[N.E. Brigand]

So this point came up on Twitter.

The Biden team is saying out loud "if you have a nuclear weapon we will not do anything to stop you"

Iran is listening.

I am still debating to what extent I agree with it

It's true up to a point.

It was the entire premise of the Cold War.

It's why American conservatives have suggested the U.S. should preemptively attack Iran (John McCain literally sang "Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran" on the 2008 campaign trail), it's why George W. Bush and Barack Obama approved the creation and use of the Stuxnet computer virus to destroy Iranian centrifuges (a joint operation with Israel), and it's why American liberals worked so hard to reach an agreement that would reward Iran for not constructing nuclear weapons.

Once another nation has nuclear weapons, the U.S. will indeed treat it differently.

[RoseMorninStar]

In the past hour, three different news outlets (Washington Post, Financial Times, and New York Times) have published variations on the same story based on sources in the U.S. government: Russia has asked China for military and financial assistance in the past two weeks.

It seems Russia is trying to provoke the West/NATO in an attempt to prove the war is the fault of the West/NATO and that Russia is the victim. Specifically in order to get support from China.

[Inanna]

The nuke perception is correct. It might not be the whole truth, but it is a truth.

[N.E. Brigand]

In the past hour, three different news outlets (Washington Post, Financial Times, and New York Times) have published variations on the same story based on sources in the U.S. government: Russia has asked China for military and financial assistance in the past two weeks.

It seems Russia is trying to provoke the West/NATO in an attempt to prove the war is the fault of the West/NATO and that Russia is the victim. Specifically in order to get support from China.

I think the story is true but also that it was deliberately leaked by the U.S. government in order to make Russia look so weak and pathetic that they have to go begging for China to help them out of this mess.

[RoseMorninStar]

In the past hour, three different news outlets (Washington Post, Financial Times, and New York Times) have published variations on the same story based on sources in the U.S. government: Russia has asked China for military and financial assistance in the past two weeks.

It seems Russia is trying to provoke the West/NATO in an attempt to prove the war is the fault of the West/NATO and that Russia is the victim. Specifically in order to get support from China.

I think the story is true but also that it was deliberately leaked by the U.S. government in order to make Russia look so weak and pathetic that they have to go begging for China to help them out of this mess.

Let's hope it doesn't turn into a world war. Sometimes it doesn't matter if a story is true. It only has to be plausible and that plausibility spins it's own course.

[Frelga]

Well, apparently they are.
Wapo link. Other sources claimed that China said no, but they are pay walled.

Russia asks China for military equipment, U.S. officials say
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Theoretically, if putin threatened to use nuclear weapons unless we do what he says, how far would we allow him to go?

"Exit NATO or I nuke you."

"Return Alaska or I nuke you."

"Make Trump president or I nuke you."

"Make ME your president or I nuke you."

Is there a point where we call his bluff and tell him to take the Russian war ship?

[River]

I think the world's noticed the difference between being and not being a nuclear power for a long time now. That's why China, Pakistan and India have all built them. It's why Israel convinced France to help them nuke up. It's why Iran and N Korea have or have had nuclear programs.

You will, of course, note that being a nuclear power has not saved Russia from some pretty hideous sanctions. Being a nuclear power might spare you invasion and bombing campaigns, but it doesn't mean you get to keep All the Access to finance and trade if you decide to, say, rebuild a lost empire with bullets and blood.

[Sunsilver]

Frelga, personally, I agree with you - I think he's bluffing. No one wants WWIII, Putin included. I think he realizes how unpopular his invasion of Ukraine is in his own country. If he were to expand the war to include other countries, he'd be in deep, deep trouble.

[Frelga]

He also can't fight NATO.

He's out of men, out of tech, out of fuel, out of chips Taiwan won't sell him. His best friends and brother Slavs are siding with the EU. Meanwhile, other countries are taking notice - Chechnya and Syria to start with. Lukashenko was supposed to send reinforcements, except no one is going. His enforcers - the paratroopers, the Kaydyrovtzy - can't fight regular army. His regular army is looting food to survive.

He lost 3 generals in a week because his communications equipment is fubar and commanders have to move to the front lines. No one said this, but I suspect that hungry, demoralized, but armed, soldiers don't appreciate being yelled at, which might explain the convenient appearance of Ukrainian snipers.

He's got no cards to play except indiscriminate murder of civilians. And I am pretty confident that he does not intend to spend the rest of his life in a bunker under radioactive ground.

On the other hand, if he wins concessions, he will spend the next five years rebuilding an army with less corruption and more efficiency. Then NATO will really have a problem.

[RoseMorninStar]

I don't think China is thrilled with what Putin did either. China is authoritarian but it likes order and Putin (and Trump) are chaos.

[N.E. Brigand]

Husband is watching old interviews with Zelensky's ... Apparently at one of his concerts someone in the audience came wrapped in a Russian flag and started to yell insults at Zelensky and Ukraine in general. Zelensky made an attempt to defuse the situation, then gave up, left the stage, and punched the guy. That... may explain things.

Did this happen before or after February 2014?

In that month, Russia invaded Ukraine. From that time forward, support for Russia in Ukraine arguably could be seen as treasonous behavior. Someone who holds that view probably would think the guy was lucky to get off with only a punch.

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Apropos of nothing, in the southern Ukrainian city of Melitopol (pop. 151,000), which was captured by Russia twelve days ago, Ivan Fedorov, the town's duly elected mayor, was taken into custody by the Russian military Friday: he was hauled out of his office with a bag over his head. Russia has installed a new mayor:



I'll be generous and assume that they threatened her family if she didn't take the job. I'm not sure that will save her in the end.

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And as for this:



I wonder if those "journalists" are familiar with the phrase sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander.

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Speaking of which:



The first woman's card literally says "two words" because the Russian government has said that anyone who shares the message "stop [the] war" will be arrested.

The second woman in that Moscow video supports Russia's invasion! She still gets hauled away, merely because she's talking to the media.

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Here in the U.S., Senator Mitt Romney, Republican of Utah and formerly the governor of Massachusetts says that this of former Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard, Democrat of Hawai'i:

"Tulsi Gabbard is parroting false Russian propaganda. Her treasonous lies may well cost lives."

Romney is referring to this video that Gabbard released today spreading Russian claims about supposed bioweapons labs in Ukraine.

In 2019, former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said that Gabbard, then vying for the Democratic nomination, was "the favorite of the Russians" and even implied that Gabbard was "a Russian asset." Earlier this week, a dual Russian-American citizen named Elena Bronson was charged with being an unregistered agent of the Russian government. Bronson, who fled to Russia in 2020 after being interviewed by the FBI, had engaged in a variety of activities under the cover of promoting good feelings between Russia and the U.S. There's even a possible allusion to her in the Mueller report, where she may have been one of two Russian agents who reached out to the Trump team inviting them, two days after Trump won the 2016 election, to attend an international chess championship in New York City where Putin's press secretary, Dmitry Peskov, was scheduled to appear. (That part of Mueller's report still has a number of redactions.) And it turns out that the only political candidate Bronson ever donated to was Gabbard. (But they were small donations.)

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This is a moving little video:

[Frelga]

Um, what are 'seal noises'?

Sounds like this:

Did this happen before or after February 2014?

The interview was shortly before he officially ran for President. 2018, 2019? The concert was in Germany, I'm not sure when. If the concert was in Ukraine, he wouldn't have to come down from the stage.

Meanwhile, in France.