Russia's Invasion of Ukraine

[Sunsilver]

You've got to be pretty hungry to steal raw potatoes! :o

I found the video of Trump's rant against windmills, and posted it for the right-wingers on the leather work forum. They told me it was fake and been edited. I was also told I was 'off topic'.

And like Cawthorn, some of them don't really care which side wins:

So just to be sure who we hatin does anyone know? Ukraine was part of Russia during the cold war wasn't it didn't we hate em all then? Has a large nazi following, didn't we hate them nazis when russia and Ukraine was hatin them also? Seems to me we shouldn't even be involved let em duke it out and then we can hate the winners.

This is just more scare because covid wasn't working anymore. Get yall back on Soros tv watching the war, biden getin unity back in the ole USA. Meanwhile China doing its thing enslaving and killing different races for years and we buying their goods by the boatloads and not giving a shit !!! Don't be suckers again!!

[N.E. Brigand]

Now it appears that Poland will send some of its older fighters to a U.S. airbase in Germany, where the U.S. will rebrand them and deliver them to Ukraine.

Then the U.S. will provide Poland with newer planes to replenish its own fleet.

Ukrainian pilots are already trained on the fighters currently used by Polish air force.

Not so fast! For the second time in a week, this story is being walked back. Although Poland announced this earlier today, the U.S. says the plan won't work. Too much risk of escalation.

This thread looks to me like a pretty good explainer of why the idea of Poland providing fighter jets was impractical and probably not even important right now ("a few MiGs are going to have much less military impact than SAMs") but could be something NATO should be planning to implement in a few months:

[Frelga]

I'm sure Mr. Senior Lecturer knows what Ukraine needs better than its President, who keeps asking for the planes. /s

You've got to be pretty hungry to steal raw potatoes! :o

There was also a video of Russian soldiers stealing chickens. That's like classic WW2 movie German soldier behavior.

Sushko posted more letters purporting to come from an FSB insider. I place no bets either way on its authenticity, but several respectable sources seem to treat them as genuine.

Active FSB analyst's psychological assessment of Vladimir Putin

[N.E. Brigand]

Just because Zelenskyy is asking for something doesn't mean that he believes he really needs it.

I don't mean that as any kind of criticism. He could be asking for something he doesn't need in order to have room to negotiate down to what he really does need. And there are other good possible reasons for him to do so.

Alternately, he could just be wrong about what he needs. Even the best people make mistakes.

Remember, Zelenskyy also asked for a no-fly zone, and it seems to be widely agreed that putting that in place would be tantamount to NATO declaring war on Russia, vastly increasing the chances that billions of people die in a nuclear war.

[N.E. Brigand]

Just because Zelenskyy is asking for something doesn't mean that he believes he really needs it.

I don't mean that as any kind of criticism. He could be asking for something he doesn't need in order to have room to negotiate down to what he really does need. And there are other good possible reasons for him to do so.

Alternately, he could just be wrong about what he needs. Even the best people make mistakes.

Remember, Zelenskyy also asked for a no-fly zone, and it seems to be widely agreed that putting that in place would be tantamount to NATO declaring war on Russia, vastly increasing the chances that billions of people die in a nuclear war.

And just to remind us of how things might go wrong, some news from today:

India Says It Accidentally Fired Missile Into Pakistan (source: Reuters)

[N.E. Brigand]

Sheesh. No power at home for the past nine hours while electrical repairs were underway. Power back on, check the news and find that Russia started a fire at a Ukrainian nuclear plant (fortunately it seems to be contained to an ancillary building), and U.S. Senator Lindsey Graham is suggesting that a would-be "Brutus" or "Stauffenberg" ought to assassinate Vladimir Putin.

I'll admit that I've been wondering whether an incident such as Graham conjures might happen! But I kept it to myself, on the grounds that saying it in public would be too incendiary, and I'm a nobody. Thanks to Graham's tweet, Putin now can claim that at least one U.S. official has been threatening the Russian government.

Great movie, by the way:

[Frelga]

Having seen the performance of Russian conventional military, I am significantly less concerned about their nuclear weapons.

I really think Americans should let go of the idea that they will "provoke" putin into anything he otherwise would not do. If he decides he wants to expand the war, which he might, he will make up a pretext. If he doesn't, he will ignore anything the West can say or do. If anything, a show of strength is more likely to be an effective strategy than continuing to appease the bully.

We all remember that WWII started with European powers trying to avert WWII by letting Hitler have a few countries, yeah?

[RoseMorninStar]

Being a 'major power' has it's drawbacks. Everyone wants help, but the US also gets blame for meddling (which we've done plenty of). It's a no win situation.

[N.E. Brigand]

We all remember that WWII started with European powers trying to avert WWII by letting Hitler have a few countries, yeah?

I think we do. But I think we also remember that when the Soviet Union invaded Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968 to crush reformist movements in those countries, the U.S. did not respond militarily -- because the U.S.S.R. had nuclear weapons.

[N.E. Brigand]

Some observers are noting that it took the U.S. two weeks to capture Baghdad in 2003, and that was rightly regarded as a very fast campaign. And Kyiv is a lot closer to the Russian staging point in Belarus than Baghdad was to the U.S. staging point in Kuwait. So that Kyiv remains in Ukraine's control after just three days may not be a very hopeful sign.

(On the other hand, the Iraq victory then bogged down into 15+ years of bloody occupation.)

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Funny quip about Zelenskyy:

"It’s like we’re watching Jon Stewart turn into Winston Churchill before our very eyes."

Although I fear that for analogies to world leaders, we may have to seek out those who were killed in battle. Not many of those in recent memory.

- - - - - - - - - -
That reminds me of a story that Tom Shippey cited in a paper about Tolkien's idea of courage. Shippey quoted General William Slim, who led various British battalions in World War II in Africa and Asia. He was wounded three time. It is said that when his aides advised him to lead from the the rear, he responded, "Nothing is so good for the morale of the troops as occasionally to see a dead general."

Regarding the first item: it has been more than 15 days since the invasion started.

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Regarding the second item: Ukraine has reportedly foiled a dozen assassination attempts on President Zelenskyy.

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Regarding the third item: three Russian generals are now reported to have been killed during the invasion. Will it help their morale?

Edited to add: too good not to share: "The plural is 'deads general.'"

[N.E. Brigand]

Good question:



(Dmitry Rogozin is the director of Russia's space program; he used to be the deputy prime minister for defense.)

[Frelga]

But I think we also remember that when the Soviet Union invaded Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968 to crush reformist movements in those countries, the U.S. did not respond militarily -- because the U.S.S.R. had nuclear weapons.

USSR was not going to use nuclear weapons, especially not over Czechoslovakia. This is something few Americans realize - Soviet ideology at the time portrayed the working class of the Western countries as natural allies that looked toward the socialist USSR as a beacon of hope in their fight against oppression. Initiating a nuclear attack against those workers was incompatible with this philosophy (retaliation, on the other hand...). The US had no such compulsion and was free to paint the entire population of the USSR as enemies.

Yes, that could be step 1 in setting up someone to take the fall. He is shocked. Shocked!

And now the heads are starting to roll. Not literally.
Yet.

Per @igorsushko

On 3/11, The 5th Directorate of the FSB (Operational Information and International Relations), in charge of foreign intelligence of the FSB, incl. in Ukraine, has been raided by the both FSO, Federal Protective Service of the Russian Federation ФСО – Putin’s own security service

along with the 9th Directorate of the FSB (Internal Security for the FSB). Head of the FSB’s 5th Directorate, Colonel General Sergei Beseda (born 1954), and his deputy, Anatoly Bolyukh (born 1956), have been arrested.

Raids by the 9th Directorate and the FSO also took place at over 20 other locations associated with the operatives inside the 5th Directorate who are suspected of having connections with journalists and human rights activists.

[N.E. Brigand]

Good question:



(Dmitry Rogozin is the director of Russia's space program; he used to be the deputy prime minister for defense.)

If Rogozin had bothered to watch, he'd know that here's how that cartoon ends (not with those labels, of course):



Also, Chris Hayes points out that Rogozin's version explicitly portrays Russia as the aggressor against the non-threatening Ukraine.

That reminds me of how Donald Trump or his team have thrice likened themselves to cinematic villains:

--in Trump's Jan. 2017 inaugural address, he portrayed himself as Bane in The Dark Knight Rises;

--in a Dec. 2019 video shared by his campaign, Trump was portrayed as Thanos in Avengers: Endgame;

--in a May 2020 tweet, Trump's campaign compared itself to the Death Star from Star Wars.

[Sunsilver]

Russian embassy in Lisbon. Nearby houses are projecting the coloured lights onto the building.

[Lalaith]

While she is 'white' many in her family are black, Puerto Rican, Hispanic, etc.. but all are AMERICANS. Every bit as much as say, Irish, French, or Ukrainian Americans. There has been an outpouring of support around the world and here in the US for the people of Ukraine and it's plight. There is nothing wrong with that. From her viewpoint, and not incorrectly, at least according to media I've seen here in the US, the outpouring of support and concern far exceeds the concern for people of black, brown, yellow nations who are or who have been in desperate situations and in need of support. Unfortunately there have also been reports of black, Indian, etc.. (ie. people of different skin tones) from within Ukraine struggling to be treated equally.

I do not disagree with your friend, and that's what I was partially trying to say in my original post. White Americans (i.e., European descendants) are still the majority of the population here, last I checked. Our country's culture, media, views, etc. are permeated with this white lens--the same as it is permeated with patriarchy and Christianity. And the Ukraine is also a Christian country. This is another huge reason my evangelical friends have been so caught up in this, besides the end times stuff. These are "fellow believers" being attacked by the "evil communists." (Yes, I see the flaws in these beliefs.)

I'm speaking generally here, of course, and not hopelessly either. I think we're making strides in overcoming these worldviews, but I also do think these worldviews (or their roots) are some of the most persistent and common evils humanity has fought from time immemorial.

However, like I said in my original post, I think there are some other possible causes and explanations for the almost unilateral support for the Ukraine here in the US.

My friend, with whom I generally correspond almost every day sometimes multiple times a day, is currently not speaking to me and I've tried to be as compassionate and honest as I can, but I've fallen short of the mark. I realize people who are oppressed, victims, etc.. do not feel they should have to 'teach' us why we are being ignorantly callous but not everyone has had the same experiences and exposures. It's not always possible to walk a mile in another persons shoes and so we must learn from one another. That is what I'm attempting to do but I am thinking most of us here are from similar backgrounds and don't have insight to the issue.

I'm sorry to hear that, tbh. I don't think it's any random BIPOC's job to explain things to me. I am capable of doing my own research and do. However, I would expect someone who is genuinely a friend to be open to discussions and opportunities to deepen understanding. That's what friendship is about. I hope your friend comes around soon.

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[Frelga]

I do want to acknowledge that the way US treats our neighbors from the South is racist and callous. Yet those are not the places that come up in most online conversations. Don't Russian troll farms have them on their maps?

So far, though, what the US has done to address this humanitarian crisis that they haven't done for others? The same people and organizations are collecting donations and will help the refugees if they are allowed to come here.

Even in Poland, which has taken in the bulk of the Ukrainians, it's not the government that is doing the work, it's self organized individuals, and they are burning out.

That said, this is one crisis that can be solved by kicking out the invaders. Like Kuwait, maybe? People aren't fleeing their government or their fellow citizens, and most will want to go home and help rebuild.

P. S. The religion argument is a bit ironic in light of the Trump/putin wing lauding putin for being the defender of the Christian faith.

[Lalaith]

P. S. The religion argument is a bit ironic in light of the Trump/putin wing lauding putin for being the defender of the Christian faith.

Right? It makes no sense. The support for the Ukraine that I'm seeing from my conservative Christian friends does give me a small glimmer of hope, though. Maybe this would be something that would open the more moderate Evangelical's eyes to the hypocrisy of supporting Trump and/or Putin.

My personal opinion on whether or not I think Evangelical or conservative Christians are supporting other countries in crisis (or have supported them) in the same way they're having an outpouring of support for the Ukraine, is that it is not the same. Even if they've given to relief organizations for other countries in crisis, it's always been with an ulterior motive. (We need to win them to Jesus!) I guess in this case the ulterior motive isn't as striking because it's Christians giving to Christians.

For example, with the recent crisis in Afghanistan, what I saw from my conservative Christian friends were political posts taking jabs at the current administration. There were far fewer posts supporting the people of Afghanistan or saying that they were praying for them or that they were feeling terrible about the situation. It was politicized. For the Ukraine, what I am seeing is more support for the people. I'm still not seeing very many offerings of donations from these Christian friends. I see that mostly from my non-Christian friends, honestly. People actually putting their money where their mouth is.

But I'm not bitter or anything.



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[Voronwë the Faithful]

My friend, with whom I generally correspond almost every day sometimes multiple times a day, is currently not speaking to me and I've tried to be as compassionate and honest as I can, but I've fallen short of the mark. I realize people who are oppressed, victims, etc.. do not feel they should have to 'teach' us why we are being ignorantly callous but not everyone has had the same experiences and exposures. It's not always possible to walk a mile in another persons shoes and so we must learn from one another. That is what I'm attempting to do but I am thinking most of us here are from similar backgrounds and don't have insight to the issue.

I'm sorry to hear that, tbh. I don't think it's any random BIPOC's job to explain things to me. I am capable of doing my own research and do. However, I would expect someone who is genuinely a friend to be open to discussions and opportunities to deepen understanding. That's what friendship is about. I hope your friend comes around soon.

So do I.

[Sunsilver]

P. S. The religion argument is a bit ironic in light of the Trump/putin wing lauding putin for being the defender of the Christian faith.

Right. Umm...so since when did Russia/Putin become a 'defender of the Christian faith?? When I was a kid, they were the 'Godless Communists'!

I must be missing something here... Or do some of the right wingers actually believe the Russian propaganda that Ukraine has become Fascist?

[Lalaith]

Probably, but what many do believe, for sure, is that Putin is a conservative Christian who defends conservative Christian values, i.e., he's anti-LGBTQ+

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