Russia's Invasion of Ukraine

[RoseMorninStar]

3. Evangelicals and Christian fundamentalists see this as part of the End Times, like I said previously, and are invested in the whole situation.

I've run into this attitude in several situations and find it chilling. There are some religious sects who believe there will only be X number of people left after the 'rapture' (or whatever they call it) and that they will literally inherit the earth. As such (so I've heard) they will proselytize in areas/homes they would like to 'inherit'.

It seems there has been a recent wake-up call in regards to race. Perhaps because it involves 'white people' too(?) I don't think it's an uncommon view in the US to think of race as a 'something you can see'. Obviously in different times/places race has/had different connotations that may not fit our personal notions. Putin seems to view 'Anglo-Saxons' as a separate race. Many of us in the US are 'mutts', yours truly included and perhaps that is why we view race differently than some others do. 'Tribalism' is a good descriptive word but I'm not sure if that 'whitewashes' the race issue.. but then if the race issue is not skin color perhaps whitewashing is not the proper word. Ugh. Complicated. I certainly have a lot to learn regarding this subject.

Túrin's comments above resonate with me, but I doubt that's the conversation my friend was looking for. Discrimination in all it's forms is horrible and stressful situations such as war and displacement tend to bring out the worst in people.

I also think the fear of wide-spread &/or nuclear war is all too real.

[River]

Its not just that they "look like us". They could be us. Syrian and Afghan refugees are "other" in a way that has very little to do with race. They have a different socioeconomic and historical background. That doesn't mean we don't feel for them, but it doesn't hit home as hard as it does for a fellow European. Also, its worth remembering that European countries took in millions of refugees from those conflicts, so I'm not sure why we're being demonised for being slightly more empathetic to our neighbours.

I think you hit it on the head. We're all seeing this dynamic in the news on a international scale right now, but I've been watching this exact dynamic play out in my own community since the fire. Everyone in town who still had undamaged homes with undamaged excess possessions started donating. So did everyone else in the state and, apparently, out of state. There's been some flap about why all the attention to fire victims when there was already a crap ton of need in the community...but they could be us. If the wind had blown differently that day. If the snow hadn't arrived when it did. If... I've donated stuff to fire relief and I've also donated stuff to just the general relief. There are a lot of organizations around here doing both, even. Just as there are a lot of organizations that are supporting Ukrainians right now but are also supporting Syrians and Afghans. Also, Al, to your point about socioeconomic backgrounds, we know a couple who took in an Afghan family. This family was from a poor, undeveloped part of Afghanistan. They'd never seen a modern gas stove or refrigerator. Their former home did not have indoor plumbing. This couple has been doing a lot of work, with a massive language barrier, to try and get this family up and operating in 21st century America. I'm sure refugees from more urban parts of Afghanistan would be better equipped for modern living, but I see what you're talking about.

What's really interesting, and we may see this play out at the international level, is how some people are very vocal about how they only want their donations going to fire victims. I'm not sure why. Maybe they fear anyone else is some sort of scammer, or somehow undeserving? I honestly can't get my head around that...but once upon a time, I rode ambulances and learned a little bit about what happens behind closed doors. Even closed doors in nice neighborhoods. So I'm not inclined to see the fire victims as somehow more worthy than a someone who's going through the proverbial wringer for other reasons. Honestly, that person could be me as well. A wildfire is a big disaster that makes headlines and is seen by everyone. But there are other disasters that hit on a daily basis that stay confined within the four walls of a home...and sometimes those disasters leave you without a home. But maybe if I'd never been involved in public service I wouldn't see it that way.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

[off-topic]River, we've seen a similar dynamic here, with regard to people being vocal about assistance being limited to fire victims. And a really bizarre and unfortunate additional dynamic in which folks who are committed to rebuilding despite the huge challenges of doing so (only about 60 permits have been issued so far, a year and a half after the fire, of the over 900 homes lost) are deemed more worthy of support then the folks have decided to instead try to move on in new homes. It really makes me sad.[/off-topic]

My perspective about the ongoing discussion is quite different than what most have posted here, but I'm not sure that I am ready to get further into that topic at this point.

[Frelga]

Yes, I mostly agree with Al here. With all the differences in the situation, if anyone knows about having a neighboring nation that denies your right to be a country and a people, it's Ireland.

I think there are three main, distinct parties to this discourse (outside HOF, I mean).

1. People with personal trauma from other conflicts who feel that they were not given the same support (whether or not it's objectively accurate)

2. People who want to elevate the cause that is important to them in the news cycle that prioritizes another story

3. Russian trolls and shills who have no cards to play except "but what about"

Another feature that separates Ukraine from, for example, Syria (where Russians did to Aleppo what they are now doing to Kiyiv) is that the geopolitical situation is not complicated. There is no conflict or tension between Ukraine and their currently more prosperous neighbors, and Russia is seen as clear threat to many of them. We aren't asking why Syria's neighbors aren't doing more for its people, are we?

[Frelga]

My aunt used to live in Mariupol (then Zhdanov).

[RoseMorninStar]

My perspective about the ongoing discussion is quite different than what most have posted here, but I'm not sure that I am ready to get further into that topic at this point.

I would appreciate your point of view V. I may or may not agree with you but broadening my thinking on this subject would not be a bad thing. Living where I do and with my life experiences, can lead to narrow ideas that may not be the whole picture. Think of sharing your opinions/thoughts as expanding my horizons to ideas that may not have occurred to me.

River, expounding on Alatar's original point makes it more comprehensive for me.

(...)but it doesn't hit home as hard as it does for a fellow European. Also, its worth remembering that European countries took in millions of refugees from those conflicts, so I'm not sure why we're being demonised for being slightly more empathetic to our neighbours.

I think this was one of the sticking points for my friend/me. For those of us living in the USA, Ukrainians are no more our 'neighbors' than Afgahni's or those from South America or Africa.

Regarding targeted giving; I saw a story yesterday about the misuse of federal pandemic funds Minnesota nonprofit under federal investigation for alleged misuse of funds meant to feed children. Stories like this are so demoralizing for people wishing to make a difference.

[Lalaith]

I should have definitely clarified that my answers to Rose's friend were regarding Americans.

I can understand where you're coming from, Al.

And, Rose, as Americans, they're not our physical neighbors, but that was my point in my first guess at the reasons for the support--they're our* ancestors, our families.

*For the majority of white Americans

But I could be talking out of my a$$. It's late, and I need to sleep.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

[RoseMorninStar]

oh.. yeah.. that definitely would not go over well. My friend is American has a melting pot family and to presume that we support Ukraine because we're 'all' white American's and 'those other people of color' aren't deserving of our compassion in the same way.. (understandably) really wouldn't go over well. I understand what you're saying Laly, but my friend has a good point.

[Sunsilver]

The Canadian Red Cross is accepting donations, which the federal government is matching.
My church held a prayer vigil for Ukraine today, and had special envelopes for those wishing to give to the Red Cross. I donated $50.

[N.E. Brigand]

Today, when former U.S. president Donald Trump was asked why Russian president Vladimir Putin decided to invade Ukraine now and not during Trump's term in office, he replied, "It would have never happened. And we did talk about it. He definitely wanted Ukraine, loved Ukraine -- would never have happened." Then Trump was asked what he expects to happen if the war continues for a while, to which he responded:

Well, and I said this a long time ago, if this happens, we are playing right into their hands: green energy, the windmills -- they don't work, they're too expensive, they kill all the birds, they ruin your landscapes -- and yet the environmentalists love the windmills, and I've been preaching this for years, the windmills -- and I had 'em way down -- but the windmills are the most expensive energy you can have. And they don't work. And by the way, they last a period of ten years, and by the time they start rusting and rotting all over the place, nobody ever takes them down. They just go on to the next piece of prairie or land and destroy that.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Reporter Julia Ioffe watched some Russian TV this evening:

Perhaps because Putin's justifications for invading Ukraine don't make sense, Kremlin news and the Ministry of Defense now claim that they've magically discovered the Zelenskyy government's plan to invade the Donbas. "The only question that remains," says the Ministry spokesperson, "is how deeply their allies in the US and NATO were involved in this." Of course, they don’t show the "document."

Okay, wow, just got to the part where the special correspondent from RIA Novsosty calls in to say that Mariupol is besieged, encircled, and being shelled... by the Ukrainian army.

OMG: The host of "Time Will Tell," on Kremlin's Channel One, accuses Zelenskyy of treating the Ukrainian people as "cannon fodder" because he won't surrender and give Putin exactly what he asked for, therefore he is the one killing the Ukrainian people.

Cool, cool, a guest on the show says that Ukraine is ISIS "and their tactics are just like those of ISIS, they take whole cities hostage." He then adds, "we cannot negotiate with them." Kremlin TV, man.

A former member of the government of the Donetsk People's Republic says that the reason you can't video evidence of all the torture Ukrainian forces inflicted on the people of the DPR... is because YouTube took them all down.

Aaaaand I'm at the part where they're comparing Volodymyr Zelenskyy to Adolf Hitler.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Remember George Papadopoulos, the Trump 2016 campaign's so-called "coffee boy" who effectively launched the FBI's investigation into Donald Trump and Russia when he drunkenly boast in spring 2016 to an Australian ambassador in London that Russia had stolen Democratic emails? He later served a short prison stint for having made false statements to the FBI that enabled a Russian spy to flee the U.S.

Now he's spreading Russian propaganda. A few days ago he claimed on Twitter that President Zelenskyy had fled the country. Now he's claiming that Ukraine has biological weapons.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Finally, I think this discussion about the many ways that Putin's government seems to have screwed up in their planning for this attack (e.g., too much secrecy about the war plans, which weren't robustly tested in advance) includes one particularly fascinating claim that bears on some recent discussions here:

The other element of Putin's calamitous decision to go to war was a long-standing paradox of the Russian foreign policy: the Kremlin has a more nuanced understanding of China or the Arab World than of its closest neighbors in the post-Soviet space, especially Ukraine.

The reasons are many. To start with, the Russian Empire has never perceived Ukraine as a "colony," and thus has never developed a discipline to study Ukraine as "the Other." When Putin wrote that Russians and Ukrainians are "one people," he actually meant it.

These problematic assumptions have led to a giant flaw in the Kremlin's understanding of Ukraine. Hence Russian diplomats and spies who didn't bother to learn the language or study the culture, and policymakers operating on stereotypes.

[N.E. Brigand]

U.S. officials estimate that 5,000-6,000 Russian troops have been killed in the Ukraine invasion, which is almost twice as many as the U.S. estimate just two days ago. (It's not that half those troops were killed in the past 48 hours, but that they think they've got better data now.)

Barring a major breakthrough in the Russian campaign, every day that passes increases the possibility that they're really going to lose this thing. But they can continue to make Ukraine hell for years, if they can't find some face-saving way to leave. As David Frum says:

"I fear with deep gloom that by the time Putin recognizes he needs an exit, the exits will be closed and locked."

[Sunsilver]

N.E. Brigand, that's the most INSANE think I've ever heard Trump say! Wow!

Yeah, as for Putin, 'face-saving way to leave'. As I said above, not sure his ego will allow him to back down.

[Lalaith]

oh.. yeah.. that definitely would not go over well. My friend is American has a melting pot family and to presume that we support Ukraine because we're 'all' white American's and 'those other people of color' aren't deserving of our compassion in the same way.. (understandably) really wouldn't go over well. I understand what you're saying Laly, but my friend has a good point.

Then I'm afraid I'm missing your friend's point.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

[Frelga]

Berdyansk is on the Azov Sea. There are a bunch of resorts around. The summer camp ran by my mom's employer was nearby. The sea is warm and shallow. Some places, you walk in, and keep walking. Knee deep, waist deep, chest deep, waist deep, knee deep. The shore is half a mile away, and you are there, dry from the ankles up.

[N.E. Brigand]

Madison Cawthorn is a first-term Republican Congressman from North Carolina who previously made statements supporting Trump's insurrectionists:



(Cawthorn also was just cited for driving with an expired license.)

[RoseMorninStar]

N.E., that's terrible.

oh.. yeah.. that definitely would not go over well. My friend is American has a melting pot family and to presume that we support Ukraine because we're 'all' white American's and 'those other people of color' aren't deserving of our compassion in the same way.. (understandably) really wouldn't go over well. I understand what you're saying Laly, but my friend has a good point.

Then I'm afraid I'm missing your friend's point.

I'll give it a go Laly, but I fear I may fall woefully short/may not be up to the task.

I'd like to make it clear I am not agitating for an argument nor am I trying to shame anyone. My friend has a valid point but due to my lack of exposure, ignorance, misunderstandings, etc..., I am grappling with what this lesson should be teaching me.. because I do believe there is a lesson here, for all of us. My friend has experiences and exposures I have not had. While she is 'white' many in her family are black, Puerto Rican, Hispanic, etc.. but all are AMERICANS. Every bit as much as say, Irish, French, or Ukrainian Americans. There has been an outpouring of support around the world and here in the US for the people of Ukraine and it's plight. There is nothing wrong with that. From her viewpoint, and not incorrectly, at least according to media I've seen here in the US, the outpouring of support and concern far exceeds the concern for people of black, brown, yellow nations who are or who have been in desperate situations and in need of support. Unfortunately there have also been reports of black, Indian, etc.. (ie. people of different skin tones) from within Ukraine struggling to be treated equally.

I'd also like to make clear that I acknowledge that there are several things at play and it's a complicated situation; one being anti-Putin sentiment, another being the threat of WWIII &/or a nuclear war. I also think cultural similarities/differences, and common languages play a part. Also, the US WAS involved in those other conflicts so (for better or worse) people may have felt we were trying to make a difference (I know a pitiful amount about those conflicts, unfortunately).

I gained a good deal of enlightenment to the question of 'race' during the recent Whoopie Goldberg screw-up. In my ignorance I also presumed Jewish people to be generally considered 'white' and don't think Whoopie was far off the mark in presuming most Americans view 'race' as something we can see. I acknowledge I have a long way to go but I'm wondering what I should be taking away from this situation that is not immediately apparent/that I am missing. But it IS there.

My friend, with whom I generally correspond almost every day sometimes multiple times a day, is currently not speaking to me and I've tried to be as compassionate and honest as I can, but I've fallen short of the mark. I realize people who are oppressed, victims, etc.. do not feel they should have to 'teach' us why we are being ignorantly callous but not everyone has had the same experiences and exposures. It's not always possible to walk a mile in another persons shoes and so we must learn from one another. That is what I'm attempting to do but I am thinking most of us here are from similar backgrounds and don't have insight to the issue.

My friends comments, for reference:

I find it somewhat curious and sad that the world rallies for Ukrainians in a way that did not happen for Afghanis and Iraqis most recently. Syrian refugees became a big problem for Europe. Not as widespread an outpouring of support for them as for the Ukrainians. Why? Also, I find troubling the reports of black people and students from India who are trying to get out being held back and mistreated by Ukrainians. Kind of an awful thing.

I don't know how Ukrainians not being oppressed and being invaded makes them more sympathetic? Is the implication they are innocent? If so, why weren't Iraqis and Afghanis? They had zero to do with being invaded, and Iraq and Afghanistan civilians were most certainly invaded and bombed by the US. I don't think it is true that foreign national males in Ukraine are not allowed to leave, that would be a violation of international law, and no better than what Russians do. There have been reports of prominent men leaving who are white. I think that may be the actual root of the issue: Ukrainians are mostly white and Christian. I don't think I'm coming up with an original thought there.

[Frelga]

This is interesting, although I wouldn't get my hopes up. Possibly putin will do what Stalin would have done - find someone to blame, like Shoigu, have him arrested or defenestrated, and claim that he is the tool of the West who betrayed putin and sabotaged the war.

[River]

I'll be upfront, I haven't tried to verify this and I'm not sure my husband even found it in an English-language news source. However, he told me yesterday that Putin was shocked to learn that conscripts and new recruits had been sent to Ukraine and has ordered an investigation into the matter.

I'm not even going to try to unpack that one. My husband has also joined the "Putin has lost his mind" camp, FWIW.

[RoseMorninStar]

I'll be upfront, I haven't tried to verify this and I'm not sure my husband even found it in an English-language news source. However, he told me yesterday that Putin was shocked to learn that conscripts and new recruits had been sent to Ukraine and has ordered an investigation into the matter.

I'm not even going to try to unpack that one. My husband has also joined the "Putin has lost his mind" camp, FWIW.

This seems plausible. Even if it's not 'true' (that Putin was shocked that conscripts and new recruits were sent to Ukraine) it's a plausible line so that he can blame someone else for failures. Then he can tell mothers/wives who have lost sons that it wasn't his doing. I also believe that Putin was never open to advice and serious discussion from his top advisors and is woefully ignorant and unprepared as a result.

[Frelga]

Yes, that could be step 1 in setting up someone to take the fall. He is shocked. Shocked!

Also a step in preparing to bring home the soldiers who officially were not there?

If you watch video at the start of the article, the last few seconds is of a Ukrainian soldier climbing on a Russian tank and finding potatoes that the Russian soldiers stole somewhere.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... s-kyiv-war