Trump's America

[Inanna]

Frankly, if Trump said something assuming that he said it because he knows history is a very long stretch.

I thought Frelga was just providing a historical quote. (Yes, I need things spelled out. :p).

[elengil]

Frankly, if Trump said something assuming that he said it because he knows history is a very long stretch.

I thought Frelga was just providing a historical quote. (Yes, I need things spelled out. :p).

Not really, he's surrounded by people who no doubt 'prime' him with all these phrases. This is far from the first time he's used language that has very sinister origins. I don't put stock in him accidentally stumbling onto these terms, he got them from somewhere. Even if *he* doesn't understand them, there are plenty who do.

[Dave_LF]

It was Trump Jr. who said that

Nevertheless, with anyone in that clan, I think "he's just an idiot" is usually a safer bet than "maybe he's making an extremely subtle historical reference."

Or maybe he's repeating a subtle historical reference that osmosed into him from the company he keeps.

[elengil]

https://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2020/ ... of-attack/

Good times.

[elengil]

Just had a thought - if Biden wins, what are the chances Trump actually sticks around until Jan 20? I wonder if he'd just leave.

[N.E. Brigand]

Just had a thought - if Biden wins, what are the chances Trump actually sticks around until Jan 20? I wonder if he'd just leave.

The U.S. has what I believe to be an unfortunate history of letting people in power off the hook for their wrongdoing (and Democrats in particular can be spineless about demanding consquences), and in my opinion, this leniency played a role in Donald Trump flouting the law so often. If Ford doesn't pardon Nixon, then perhaps Reagan doesn't attempt Iran-Contra, and Bush Sr. doesn't pardon Reagan's flunkies (something arranged by Bill Barr!), and Bush Jr. doesn't commute Scooter Libby's sentence (Marcy Wheeler says it was a commutation rather than a pardon so that Libby wouldn't reveal that it was Bush not Cheney who ordered Valerie Plame's cover to be blown), and Obama doesn't announce that the Bush staffers who authorized an illegal torture program are off the hook, and Trump doesn't think he can get away with, well, you name it.

It's time to put a stop to the presidential lawlessness, and I think that there are prosecutors who agree with me.

So Trump faces legal jeopardy once he's no longer president and protected by his handpicked attorney general and the Dept. of Justice's internal rule that forbids prosecution of a sitting president. Just for starters, Robert Mueller made a very compelling case that Trump can be prosecuted after his presidency for obstruction of justice, and Bill Barr's determination otherwise goes out the window when Sally Yates or Doug Jones or whoever becomes the attorney general. And that's really just the tip of the iceberg.

Accordingly, as I've said before, I think he waits as long as possible before resigning, and he spends the time between now and January 19 wreaking as much havoc as he can so that Biden inherits the worst mess possible (has he fired Wray and Haspel and Esper yet? nothing like decapitating our defense, intelligence, and law enforcement agencies for a few months), and then at the end, he'll pardon his children (and son-in-law) and closest associates for any unspecified federal crimes they might have committed in the past five years (or however long is needed to get them past the statutes of limitation) before resigning, and then Pence (who will probably be pardoned by Trump just in case) will be president for one day, and he will pardon Trump.

It's also possible that Trump will pardon himself, but that is widely thought to be legally shaky.

That won't protect him from state prosecutions, and those may be in the offing. (Again, with the caveat that New York's prosecutors have been strangely unwilling to go after him in the past. We seem to know what happened with Pam Bondi and the dropped prosecution in Florida. What happened in New York? I personally suspect that Trump was an FBI informant before becoming president, feeding them dirt on mobsters with whom he dealt in the construction business, and that this explains why law enforcement seems to have turned a blind eye.) And it's possible that the very act of issuing pardons, if it is furtherance of a criminal conspiracy, is itself a new federal crime. So Pence's pardon has to encompass that possibility and yet not itself be part of the conspiracy.

So I'm totally serious when I say he might flee the country. That way he avoids state prosecutions (and if Pence is unwilling to debase himself, then Trump would still be subject to federal prosecution). If he does it before he resigns -- say he takes an "official" trip to Dubai and then announces that he can't return to the U.S. because of the "unfair Democratic prosecutors" -- will the United Arab Emirates try to keep Air Force One?

(And if this happens, I can't wait to see how Republicans defend it as the right thing to do.)

Good riddance? Or should some sort of deal be struck? Some Trump aides were apparently testing the waters just a week ago, suggesting that he might have something to offer if an agreement can be struck not only with the Dept. of Justice but with New York and any other state that may be looking to bring him to justice. I don't mind if he never goes to jail, but I personally wouldn't want to settle for anything less than a full public confession -- and how would we know if it really was complete?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

At the time, I agreed with Obama's decision not to try to seek prosecutions of Bush administration officials for the so-called enhanced interrogation program. I have since re-thought that. But Trump (and Giuliani, and others) are guilty of much more clear-cut crimes than the Bush administration officials. I'm not going to comment on the pardon and resignation issues because it just too much of a wild card, but I don't think that Cyrus Vance is going to give up on prosecuting the Trump Crime Family™.

[N.E. Brigand]

At the time, I agreed with Obama's decision not to try to seek prosecutions of Bush administration officials for the so-called enhanced interrogation program. I have since re-thought that. But Trump (and Giuliani, and others) are guilty of much more clear-cut crimes than the Bush administration officials. I'm not going to comment on the pardon and resignation issues because it just too much of a wild card, but I don't think that Cyrus Vance is going to give up on prosecuting the Trump Crime Family™.

I have mixed feelings myself about what should be done. This short piece digs into just some of the challenges we face:

Truth and De-Trumpification

[RoseMorninStar]

The Trumps do not seem to have much knowledge of the law, history, the constitution, and oh, so many things, but I have little doubt that it's Stephen Miller who whispers all those historically racist phrases into the ear of the Trumps for them to repeat.

[Túrin Turambar]

It's a huge challenge. Plus, we have to face the likely reality that this election has been sufficient to defeat Trump but not Trumpism, and it might find a better advocate.

Here's a piece in The Atlantic discussing this.

[elengil]

It's a huge challenge. Plus, we have to face the likely reality that this election has been sufficient to defeat Trump but not Trumpism.

Very keenly, painfully aware of that.

[RoseMorninStar]

I have been horrified and saddened that the election is as close as it has been. That said, it seems Biden has something like 55% of the vote, higher than any candidate in decades.

[N.E. Brigand]

I have been horrified and saddened that the election is as close as it has been. That said, it seems Biden has something like 55% of the vote, higher than any candidate in decades.

At the moment, Biden has less than 51%. It should improve, but not that much, and he's very unlikely to surpass the 52.93% that Barack Obama received in 2008, but he'll still have a higher share of the popular vote than the winners in 2016, 2012, 2004, 2000, 1996, and 1992. George H. W. Bush had 53.37% in 1988.

[RoseMorninStar]

I have been horrified and saddened that the election is as close as it has been. That said, it seems Biden has something like 55% of the vote, higher than any candidate in decades.

At the moment, he has less than 51%. It should improve, but not that much, and he's very unlikely to surpass the 52.93% that Barack Obama received in 2008, but he'll still have a higher share of the popular vote than the winners in 2016, 2012, 2004, 2000, 1996, and 1992. George H. W. Bush had 53.37% in 1988.

I must have misheard something on TV. Maybe they'd said 50.5%? Or perhaps they were speaking about a particular state? I often listen while I'm making supper.. not a good way to get my facts straight sometimes.

[N.E. Brigand]

Uh...

"The Trump administration in the past 2 days has abruptly dumped the leaders of 3 agencies that oversee the nuclear weapons stockpile, electricity and natural gas regulation, and overseas aid." (NPR)

[N.E. Brigand]

Vanity Fair: "Trump has signaled to allies that the Secret Service will have to drag him from the White House kicking and screaming".

Would that be a good or bad thing for the country?

On the one hand, it would grievously violate our norms of the peaceful transition of power.

On the other hand, would it make clear to even the most diehard supporters just how pathetic he is? Like James Cagney at the end of Angels with Dirty Faces.

(Wow, I didn't realize the Dead End Kids aka Bowery Boys appeared in 93 movies from 1937 through 1958, three of which were 12-part serials totalling 240 minutes each.)

[Túrin Turambar]

I don’t expect Donald Trump to ever concede that he lost the 2020 election, but I also can’t see him hanging around for long enough to actually get physically dragged from the White House. I think it is more likely he will set up an alternative government somewhere else, like Mar-a-Lago (where he usually spends the winter anyway), leave the country, or go into private life and complain about the injustices he’s suffered on Twitter and OANN. While it’s hard to imagine him having some sort of introspective side, I sometimes get the impression that he actually doesn’t like the job all that much, and possibly never really wanted it in the first place. The Presidency strokes his ego and he would never give it up on any terms other than his own, but if the decision was made for him he might prefer to go off an enjoy his billions, knowing he’ll always have an audience. I could even see him taking some sort of “this ungrateful country doesn’t deserve me” line.

If he refuses to go? It’s actually hard to find examples of elected leaders in established democracies refusing to accept election results, going back to the beginnings of modern democracy in the eighteenth century. The ones I can find are not flattering comparisons. For example, Gambian President Yahya Jammeh refused to accept an election defeat in 2016, and declared a nation-wide state of emergency. Other African countries placed pressure on him to go, and finally after several months of stand-off he announced that he had decided to resign the presidency. As far as I can tell, he now lives in exile in Equatorial Guinea.

I also found this interesting little article on the history of presidential concessions in the U.S.

[RoseMorninStar]

Uh...

"The Trump administration in the past 2 days has abruptly dumped the leaders of 3 agencies that oversee the nuclear weapons stockpile, electricity and natural gas regulation, and overseas aid." (NPR)

This worries me... more than worries, I find it unsettling.

Biden is set to make a speech today. Trump went golfing and is also going to make some sort of announcement. Being the King of Chaos that Trump is, it would not surprise me if he throws out some bizarre curve ball. Something to keep the news cycle from talking about his loss/Joe Biden's win. It would have to be a biggie.

[River]

Not sure what firing a bunch of random people heading into a lame duck period is supposed to accomplish. Biden's going to replace all the political appointees anyway.

[elengil]

Not sure what firing a bunch of random people heading into a lame duck period is supposed to accomplish. Biden's going to replace all the political appointees anyway.

But having those three agencies leaderless until almost the end of January??