The California Shooting, Ideology and Mental Illness-Updated

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Túrin Turambar
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Post by Túrin Turambar »

JewelSong wrote:
he didn't want to have to be a virgin into his forties
You know, nobody HAS to be a virgin. Sexual intercourse is available for sale - legally in Nevada and easily attained. It isn't that expensive, either.
It occurred to me that he never mentioned even considering prostitution in his manifesto (and he was willing to drive to Arizona to buy lottery tickets, so going to Nevada wouldn’t have been an issue). That said, this doesn’t really surprise me either. His need for sex struck me as being social rather than physical. He wanted the validation that would come from having a woman find him attractive, and he wanted to be seen by others as being popular. He talks about his jealousy of popular kids who made friends easily from back in Elementary School, so it wasn’t a new thing with him.

There has been some interesting discussion on the blogosphere about ‘virgin shaming’, and how it is, like ‘slut shaming’, the product of a particular unhealthy idea of masculinity and femininity. Rodger didn’t want sex per se, what he wanted was a woman to want to have sex with him – to ‘crack the code’. He felt that he would always be inferior or experience an inferior life if he could not.
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JewelSong
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Post by JewelSong »

And it was all going to happen like magic, somehow. He gives absolutely no indication that he had any awareness of process, or cause and effect, or "if you do X, then you might get Y," or ""Steps 1, 2 and 3 could lead to achievement of such-and-such a goal."

It was just going to, you know, happen. Because the universe owed it to him.

Why would someone, even someone delusional, arrive at such a mindset?
"Live! Live! Live! Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death!" - Auntie Mame

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Túrin Turambar
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Post by Túrin Turambar »

JewelSong wrote:Why would someone, even someone delusional, arrive at such a mindset?
That's the key question, isn't it? Was it mental illness, a cultural misogyny that made him view women as prizes to be won, or simply a profound inability to understand social interaction?
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JewelSong
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Post by JewelSong »

Most likely a deadly combination of all three.

I wonder why no one seems to have challenged him on his delusions and "magical thinking" mindset. Did no one ever tell him that "the universe" didn't owe him a damn thing?
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Post by River »

if they had, would he have listened?
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Post by Túrin Turambar »

Or did anyone actually know how he felt? I get the impression that he wasn't sharing with many people. A couple of WoW friends, perhaps, but they seemed to humour him and then finally cut him off.
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JewelSong
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Post by JewelSong »

Pretty interesting (and somewhat disturbing) article in today's New York Times about Elliot Rodger.
Before Brief, Deadly Spree, Trouble Since Age 8
Elliot O. Rodger’s Killings in California Followed Years of Withdrawal

Peter Rodger told a friend the other day that his son had been an enigma to the family — distant, remote, unknowable. “He’s such a good liar that I didn’t even know he knew how to lie,” the friend recalled the father saying. Yet throughout his teenage years, friends of the boy and his family saw signs that something was wrong.
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Post by River »

It doesn't matter how serious or frivolous or socially acceptable an activity is. If it's engaged in to the point that someone is incapable of functioning in society and/or having meaningful interactions with other humans, it's a problem.
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

I'm not sure the activity was the problem. Maybe more of a symptom. Maybe he found it more acceptable, easier, than other activities. There's nothing wrong with gaming if somebody has and uses other resources, other pastimes. He did not.

It probably did do harm to him, in that it gave him an outlet he would otherwise have had to work to seek in other people. (Again, someone without his mental problems would be able to enjoy the outlet and then turn to other people to meet social needs.)

Thinking about this because I just spent a very pleasant hour playing Myst (which is at last available for Mac OSX!!!!! and it works!!!!! for realz!!!!! for $18!!!!), and it was a lovely, relaxing escape from lining up subcontractors for my dad's house.

I guess what I'm saying is what others have said—that anything's bad in excess. I just would add that not everything that can be used in excess is therefore bad for everyone who uses it at all. This includes video games, wine, exercise, and work.

And I also believe that everyone there knows this. I would not be posting if Myst had not made me so . . . relaxed. . . .
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JewelSong
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Post by JewelSong »

River wrote:It doesn't matter how serious or frivolous or socially acceptable an activity is. If it's engaged in to the point that someone is incapable of functioning in society and/or having meaningful interactions with other humans, it's a problem.
Exactly. (I was trying to think of a way to say this…but River did it much better that I ever could.)

The main question is: when does "quirkiness" become a mental disorder? I think the answer is: When it affects your day-to-day living (and even your survival.) We all have our passions, our guilty pleasures, our times of pure obsession, our practice routines, our little OCD quirks. As long as we can function in society, pay our bills, communicate with others, make ourselves understood…well, then, to each his/her own.

PS: I have a couple of glasses of wine almost every evening. Am I an alcoholic? I don't think so…if I DON'T have the wine, it doesn't cause me to ransack my change jar so I can run to the all-night store and buy a bottle.
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Post by Alatar »

Lush!
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Post by Dave_LF »

Primula Baggins wrote:I'm not sure the activity was the problem. Maybe more of a symptom. Maybe he found it more acceptable, easier, than other activities.
Yes; exactly. It seems pretty clear to me that the guy had serious interpersonal issues from the start, which in turn led to his problems with women, compulsive withdrawal into video games, probably a bunch of other stuff, and ultimately a major violent outburst.

He seems like the sort of person who thinks other people are only there to help him get what he wants. This is easy to see with women where "what he wants" is pretty unambiguous, but I bet anyone who had the stomach to look would find the same pattern in his interactions with other men.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I split off the side topic on Gaming, Athletics, and other Activies. If anyone feels their post was moved in error (or not moved) let me know.
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Túrin Turambar
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Re: The California Shooting, Ideology and Mental Illness

Post by Túrin Turambar »

Bumping this thread after six years because there’s been a significant development relating to the topic.

In February a 17-year-old boy stabbed a worker at a Toronto massage parlour to death, and was arrested and charged with murder.

Police have just announced that they have found evidence linking him to the online incel community, and on this basis, will now prosecute the murder as a terrorist attack. This is obviously not the first act of incel violence (Toronto itself saw one of the deadliest with the 2018 van attack killing 10) but is the first time an act of incel violence will be prosecuted as terrorism.
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Re: The California Shooting, Ideology and Mental Illness-Upd

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I'm not sure I agree with that, but I'm not sure I don't!
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Re: The California Shooting, Ideology and Mental Illness-Upd

Post by River »

I feel like that's just giving the incels the attention and notoriety they crave. But if you're going to at like a terrorist you should get treated like one. So maybe we need to rethink how we talk about terrorists in general.
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Re: The California Shooting, Ideology and Mental Illness-Upd

Post by RoseMorninStar »

There was also a shooting (3 injured) in Arizona by a self-proclaimed incel. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/da ... e-snapchat
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Túrin Turambar
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Re: The California Shooting, Ideology and Mental Illness-Upd

Post by Túrin Turambar »

For those who aren't familiar with the movement, this guide (published yesterday) is pretty comprehensive: http://moonshotcve.com/incels-symbols-and-terminology/
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Re: The California Shooting, Ideology and Mental Illness-Upd

Post by Frelga »

I can't think of an anthropological topic that interests me less.
His philosophy was a mixture of three famous schools -- the Cynics, the Stoics and the Epicureans -- and summed up all three of them in his famous phrase, 'You can't trust any bugger further than you can throw him, and there's nothing you can do about it, so let's have a drink."

Terry Pratchett, Small Gods
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Re: The California Shooting, Ideology and Mental Illness-Upd

Post by Griffon64 »

I wrote a partial reply but it apparently had a character encoding error:

SQL ERROR [ mysqli ]

Incorrect string value: '\xF4\x8F\xB0\x80 t...' for column `thehallo_phpbb3`.`phpbb_posts`.`post_text` at row 1 [1366]


and I really can't be bothered beyond a cursory attempt to troubleshoot that.

So instead a summary: I am disgusted by people who characterize others using intrinsic traits like physical characteristics --- simply because they themselves want something without lifting a finger to get it. Like incels.

This is the root of racism, too: if you define your own attributes as desirable, the attributes of others as undesirable, or if you arbitrarily assign meaning or behavior to physical attributes, why! it only takes a few seconds of this type of lying to declare yourself morally, intellectually, or financially superior to others. You don't have to bother with putting in hard work or adding value to your life or the lives of others: something you were born with did all the work for you, and supplied condemnation for others!

Whooo! Ch34tC0d3zz unlocked, life won :horse:
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