Impeachment

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Griffon64
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Griffon64 »

Cerin -
I was not a direct witness to most of the events described. However, I found my colleagues' accounts of these events to be credible because, in almost all cases, multiple officials recounted fact patterns that were consistent with one another. In addition, a variety of information consistent with these private accounts has been reported publicly.
Definition of hearsay ( emphasis mine ):

"information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate; rumor."

If that first paragraph describes "cannot adequately substantiate" to you, our understanding of words differ too much to have a meaningful conversation.
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RoseMorninStar
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Re: Impeachment

Post by RoseMorninStar »

The DNI is said to have interviewed witnesses to corroborate the report.

Edited to Add: WHAT occurred is not in question. Donald Trump has said he did it. His own release of the conversation corroborates that. The difference is that, as president, he believes he can do no wrong. Our constitution begs to differ.

My guess is this is the type of thing that went on with the Russia investigation and the day after Trump was 'exonerated' (his words, not mine or Mueller's) he was emboldened to continue and take it further.

Trump does not seem to know right from wrong and this is an issue that has been apparent to many for a long time, well before his run for presidency. He operates like a thug mob boss.
Last edited by RoseMorninStar on Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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yovargas
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Re: Impeachment

Post by yovargas »

At least as agregious as the accusation of "quid pro quo", IMO, is the accusation that they explicitly tried to hide the evidence of the call in a database meant for classified info. I hope that bit doesn't get lost amongst all the scandal.
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RoseMorninStar
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Re: Impeachment

Post by RoseMorninStar »

yovargas wrote:At least as agregious as the accusation of "quid pro quo", IMO, is the accusation that they explicitly tried to hide the evidence of the call in a database meant for classified info. I hope that bit doesn't get lost amongst all the scandal.
Good point yov. SOMEONE realized what they were doing wasn't on the up and up. Not to mention lying to congress:
Pentagon Letter Undercuts Trump Assertion On Delaying Aid To Ukraine Over Corruption

I'd like to point out this is not something Democrats or 'the deep state' did to Trump, he did this to himself. This is the way our government is set up to run. Checks and balances, not corruption for personal gain run amok.
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River
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Re: Impeachment

Post by River »

Cerin, the full text of the whistleblower's complaint is publicly available and has been for most of today. The release came with much fanfare so I'm not sure how you missed it. Link.

In the future, please do your own homework.
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Cerin
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Cerin »

River wrote: In the future, please do your own homework.
In the future, please do not presume to tell me what to do.
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Re: Impeachment

Post by elengil »

I think we can all recognize this is an emotionally charged topic for a number of reasons. Let's take a deep breath and try not to take it or make it personal.
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Cerin
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Cerin »

Griffon64 -

A whistle-blower complaint is a special case, like a sexual assault accusation, because the repercussions of coming forward in these cases can be profound. I believe it should be a sexual assault victim's right, and no one else's, to decide whether to come forward, and I think the same goes for government employees.

Recently an anti-Kavanaugh zealot reported about a sexual assault he had witnessed during Kavanaugh's college years; that should not have been published. That person with an agenda had no right to bring that woman's name into the public as a sexual assault victim; that should have been left to her. Now this talebearer with an agenda, whom I will no longer call a whistle-blower because he isn't, has made a decision that was not his to make. These people who spoke to him about things they saw had the full ability and choice to come forward had their own level of concern merited it, and had they been willing to accept such exposure and jeopardy to their careers. This complaint, imo, should have been rejected on the grounds that it was heresay, and I use the word with understanding.

Now we learn that the talebearer is a CIA agent (NYT link below) assigned to the White House but now back at the CIA. Chuck Schumer got it right back in 2017; Trump wasn't showing the deference to intelligence officials they were accustomed to, and had made it clear that he would not be a puppet for the deep state. Schumer remarked (paraphrasing, The Hill link below) that it wasn't smart to cross the intelligence services, as they had many ways of getting back at you.

So I arrive back at my initial reaction, which is that the intelligence services are spying on the President and trying to bring him down. This is sick, and it worries me more than Trump's abnormalities, because Trump is one of a kind and will soon be gone one way or another; but an intelligence service that considers itself entitled to run the country is a perpetual danger.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/26/us/p ... lower.html

https://thehill.com/homenews/administra ... -community
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

The intelligence services are not "spying" on Mr. Trump; they are doing their job. As Admiral Maguire himself stated in his testimony, the whistleblower was acting in complete good faith and acting completely appropriately. As for the information being "hearsay" that is technically true in the case of much of what he or she reports in the complaint, it is also true that he or she makes clear that the information was reported to her or him in the course of official business, which is a common exception to the hearsay rule, so if this were a court of law, the information would likely be admissible. But that does not even matter. The point is that this is critical information that this person became aware of in the course of doing his or her official duties, and used the appropriate legal mechanism to bring it to the appropriate authorities to investigate and confirm whether it was true, only to have that be blocked until the outrage made it impossible to continue to block it. Regardless of what you, or the far right news sources that you rely on, believe, this is a classic and extremely appropriate whistleblower complaint.
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Re: Impeachment

Post by RoseMorninStar »

Civil servants take an oath of office to the constitution, not to the president. The president has also taken an oath to the constitution. The office of president is not above the law. Our Constitution was very much deliberately written with 3 separate and equal branches of government as a check and balance against corruption--for all 3 branches, legislative, administrative, and judicial. The president is not above discipline against corruption/wrong-doing any more than any one else in government. The president has been using his cabinet and his attorney general as personal defense and strong arm on his behalf, not on behalf of the country.
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RoseMorninStar
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Re: Impeachment

Post by RoseMorninStar »

If we were going to compare this to a state level crime I would think it would be similar (but of far greater magnitude/consequence) to Governor Chris Christie's Bridgegate scandal in which he closed a bridge to punish mayor Mark Sokolich for not politically endorsing him. Perhaps there is a better example involving elections, but probably not one which leverages US funds in exchange for foreign interference in an election.
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Here is something that I have not seen mentioned anywhere in the media or anywhere else. Remember the anonymous op-ed that appeared in the New York Times entitled "I Am Part of the Resistance Inside the Trump Administration"? The identity of the author was never identified (despite apparent massive efforts by the All the President's Men™). The author claim that he was part of a resistance inside of the administration. It seems likely that some or all of the people who provided the whistleblower with information that led to his complaint (and maybe the whistleblower as well) are among those people.

That being said, it is important to note what the Whistleblower did not do. He or she (I've seen reporting that suggests that the person is male, but we don't know for sure), did not anonymously go the media and lead the information that he or she had obtained. He or she did not anonymously go to Congress and leak the information that she or he had. She or he took the one stringently legal approach available, filing a whistleblower complaint through the internal processes of the intelligence community. And the information that is contained in the complaint has all proven true. The transcript released closely matches the description of the conversation, despite the fact that the whistleblower never saw the transcript. The White House has now admitted that the transcript was moved to the other server that is supposed to be only for top secret national security documents (without giving any information as to what about this conversation made it so classified). So before you (the general you, not any specific person), dismiss the whistleblower complaint as mere hearsay, considering these things.
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RoseMorninStar
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Re: Impeachment

Post by RoseMorninStar »

It's also important to note that the actual witnesses were interviewed by the IG (Michael Atkinson) to corroborate the complaint. It seems very likely this person is 'speaking' for a group, possibly the same group who wrote the Resistance letter. This doesn't sound like a lone person with a vendetta, it was a group effort. It's also important to note the most important words, "not the first time." Perhaps that top secret server will have more such conversations to reveal. And we are aware of several private conversations Trump has had with Putin where US note-takers were not present and the one in which Trump tore up the notes as well.

The report was initially filed to the CIA general council (Courtney Simons Elwood) through an anonymous process, which is also an appropriate course of action. However, Elwood then shared it with the White House, so they (Barr, Trump, etc..) had a 'heads up'. The Whistle-blower feared their concerns were not being taken seriously/would be buried and so the official whistleblower report was filed.
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Griffon64
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Re: Impeachment

Post by Griffon64 »

Cerin - thank you for your response. ( By the way, it is my habit to bold posters' names when I respond to them directly, to make it more clear who I am responding to. )
A whistle-blower complaint is a special case, like a sexual assault accusation, because the repercussions of coming forward in these cases can be profound. I believe it should be a sexual assault victim's right, and no one else's, to decide whether to come forward, and I think the same goes for government employees.

Recently an anti-Kavanaugh zealot reported about a sexual assault he had witnessed during Kavanaugh's college years; that should not have been published. That person with an agenda had no right to bring that woman's name into the public as a sexual assault victim; that should have been left to her. Now this talebearer with an agenda, whom I will no longer call a whistle-blower because he isn't, has made a decision that was not his to make. These people who spoke to him about things they saw had the full ability and choice to come forward had their own level of concern merited it, and had they been willing to accept such exposure and jeopardy to their careers. This complaint, imo, should have been rejected on the grounds that it was heresay, and I use the word with understanding.
I remember your stringent support of Kavanaugh, and while I understand that you are presenting your view of the whistleblower news we're all discussing, and I welcome the exposure to viewpoints different than mine in order to broaden my understanding of the world, I also find it hard to understand the parallels you are drawing here. But I certainly am fine with keeping in mind that this is your personal view of things and that you seem to say that you find parallels between Kavanaugh, sexual assault, whistleblowers, and using public office for personal gain.

I don't agree with your conclusion that the whistleblower is a talebearer, which I'm sure comes as no surprise to you. I feel like there's a much deeper layer to your view of these matters which I don't clearly understand.

From my perspective, public officials ( Kavanaugh, Trump, whistleblower ) are imbued, at most, with a temporary power of office to act on behalf of the people of America ( all of them, not just the ones supporting them for personal reasons or gain ). I have a feeling, from your defense of these public officials in the face of everything, that you may feel differently about the powers of elected officials and the right of the American people to question their conduct.

I'm not going to get into the whole "deep state" thing since I have not seen enough concrete evidence to form an opinion in that regard. I do believe that any person or group of people with too much power is dangerous to the wellbeing of the American people, which is part of the reason I am concerned about the current administration. I am in favor of shining light in dark places. It seems to me that the whistleblower is making an attempt to do that.
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Re: Impeachment

Post by River »

Griff, "deep state" is a term that originated from whatever wellspring Bannon and Breibart and the alt-right came from. It refers to government employees who aren't political appointees, aka career staff, with a special emphasis on those involved in law enforcement (ie, the FBI) and intelligence (CIA,NSA, etc.). There is a theory that Trump was going to clear these people out and so they are out to get him.

The Executive Branch probably isn't a fun place to be working right now. Given the turn-over among political appointees in the White House, I'm guessing that the closer you are to the Oval Office the more miserably toxic the work environment is.
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Re: Impeachment

Post by RoseMorninStar »

River wrote:Griff, "deep state" is a term that originated from whatever wellspring Bannon and Breibart and the alt-right came from. It refers to government employees who aren't political appointees, aka career staff, with a special emphasis on those involved in law enforcement (ie, the FBI) and intelligence (CIA,NSA, etc.). There is a theory that Trump was going to clear these people out and so they are out to get him.
River, I realize your definition of the "deep state" is probably closer to the meaning applied by Bannon, Breitbart, etc.., what they seem to be against is the necessary and proper function of an ethical democratic government: checks and balances as was intended by our forefathers to ensure no one person has too much power, curtail corruption, and to protect our country.

As for the definition of a 'whistleblower' I will use the words of Thomas Jefferson: "We in America do not have government by the majority--we have government by the majority who participate.... All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." The whistleblower in question and the witnesses (or 'spies' as Trump calls them) are patriots who have chosen not to remain silent in the face of tyranny/abuse of power.
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River
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Re: Impeachment

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RoseMorninStar wrote: River, I realize your definition of the "deep state" is probably closer to the meaning applied by Bannon, Breitbart, etc.., what they seem to be against is the necessary and proper function of an ethical democratic government: checks and balances as was intended by our forefathers to ensure no one person has too much power, curtail corruption, and to protect our country.
Which means they're disloyal and out to get the POTUS. If they were good and loyal Americans they'd recognize Trump's grand vision and stable genius-ness and best words and perfect phone calls and let him have his way with this nation and every other nation. Or something.

In all honesty, I hadn't realized "deep state" now extended to "all in favor of keeping a republic".
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RoseMorninStar
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Re: Impeachment

Post by RoseMorninStar »

Yeah, well, big-brainedness and all.

So, who do we think may have access to this code-word protected server? I would think they very obviously would be complicit in a cover up. My guess is Mueller never found these transcript/memos. Do you think the code word is 'covfefe'?
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Re: Impeachment

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"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Re: Impeachment

Post by RoseMorninStar »

I listened to one of those women being interviewed. I would think her constituents would be proud to have someone so intelligent with such excellent experience representing them.
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