2016 United States Election

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Cerin
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by Cerin »

I agree that in several respects, Trump seems a safer bet as regards foreign policy. He says he would reevaluate established relationships, hints that he would be less interventionist, and would have a less dangerous attitude towards Russia. I find the Clinton worldview to be extremely troubling. So much of the world's chaos and trouble is a direct result of our meddling in the affairs of other countries, and she is a great in believer in our right to shape the world according to our preferences. It's 'Manifest Destiny' on an international scale.
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River
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by River »

yovargas wrote:
River wrote:Wasn't Trump also suggesting we take out terrorists' families? I know he walked it back once it was pointed out to him that he was publically pushing for a war crime but you gotta wonder if he really walked it back.
He didn't "walk it back". He said that if doing that was a crime, he would like to change the laws so that it wouldn't be a crime. He essentially said he would like to legalize murder.
Well that's certainly a work-around. Truly the man to lead us into the Long Night...
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by axordil »

Cerin wrote: He says he would reevaluate established relationships, hints that he would be less interventionist, and would have a less dangerous attitude towards Russia.
This week. If there's anything worse in diplomacy than bad policy, it's capricious policy, and Trump is the poster man-child for saying and doing whatever works for him at any given moment. I've accused Clinton in the past of having no moral compass; Trump has one, but it never shifts from pointing right back at him.
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RoseMorninStar
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by RoseMorninStar »

axordil wrote: This week. If there's anything worse in diplomacy than bad policy, it's capricious policy, and Trump is the poster man-child for saying and doing whatever works for him at any given moment.
Agreed. I know stalwart Republicans who don't like Trump because he's 'too liberal'. They are somewhat correct; I don't believe Trump is a conservative.. or a liberal. He's an opportunist without a rudder-- a person who takes immediate advantage of an opportunity to achieve a goal and doesn't even think about the morals, ethics, principles or consequences of that action. They tend to put expediency over morality.

also exhibiting Narcissistic Personality Disorder. People with narcissistic personality have an exaggerated sense of self-importance, are absorbed by fantasies of unlimited success, and seek constant attention. The narcissistic personality is oversensitive to failure and often complains of multiple somatic symptoms. Prone to extreme mood swings between self-admiration and insecurity, these people tend to exploit interpersonal relationships.
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anthriel
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by anthriel »

I am just beyond surprised he is our presumptive Republican nominee.

I can't even write that sentence without cringing.



But I don't think the man is stupid. He is a salesman, front and foremost, and he keeps changing the sale because the customer keeps changing. The customers who got him to the dance are not necessarily the ones he needs to dance with. He will change again. He has no platform. He has no consistency. The crazy thing is that until now, clearly he didn't NEED it.

I cannot, in good conscience, vote for Hillary Clinton. My very bone marrow recoils at the thought. But Trump? Really, that's the choice I am given?

I really picked a bad day to stop drinking. :)
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superwizard
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by superwizard »

I strongly relate to this article by Aziz Ansari in the New York Times:http://nyti.ms/28SGYEA.

For someone like me, this election is painfully personal. Donald Trump has threatened to deport me from my own country (he walked it back later but who cares?). When deciding who to vote for this election for some of us it boils down to a choice between someone who is defending our pluralistic society and a race baiting, misogynist and the conversation basically ends there. I believe that's the reason Trump's net favorability ratings are beyond atrocious for Americans of African American, Hispanic and Asian descent. His other positions barely matter. Hell Trump could promise me a million dollars and I would still not vote for him. What I've been trying to do recently is make sure people have a face they connect with Trump's hateful rhetoric. I try to stand up and say: Hi, I'm a Muslim-American and I am the person Trump is trying to rally Americans against. I, like you, am just trying to live my life but now I feel a less secure in my own country, in my own city and in my own home. Please help us stand up to this rhetoric.

ETA: Forgot to also mention his poor favorability amongst women as well.
Last edited by superwizard on Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

S'wiz, nice to see you here, and thank you very much for your comments. :hug:
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by RoseMorninStar »

Narcissistic personality disorder doesn't mean he's stupid (often quite the opposite). They are often people who are entrepreneurs (because they can't work for anyone else). What I don't believe he is capable of doing is ANYTHING that he does not personally benefit from and I don't think he considers what is best for the country or anyone else (unless it's good for him personally). He doesn't have a world view and is unpredictable; a wild card. That doesn't necessarily make Hilary better choice, but I've dealt with a couple of people with similar traits and .. no way, no how. It's not a great choice to have to make, but that's how I almost always feel about elections. *sigh*

He needs to release his taxes. That would be very telling (for good or ill).

*Here's an arnold palmer* :cheers:
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by anthriel »

Superwizard: :hug: That is just CRAZY. It makes me want to hit something, hard.

What I think is very problematic is that Trump has risen to the top of the Republican candidacy while saying all that stuff. Perhaps, and this is so unbelievable to me, BECAUSE he is saying all that stuff. He is playing to the fears of people who paint him as "not PC" and "refreshing". Who are these people?! He might be encouraging them, but he hardly created them. And I can't believe that they are all just "evil" or "stupid", no matter how convenient it is to paint someone that way when you disagree with them. I think they're scared. And I think he is a master at manipulating people.

I am a Republican, but boy I'm wondering how I have common ground at all with a party that raised this guy to this level. Unfortunately, there is no possible way that I can be a Democrat. I guess I'm going to join Griffy in the independent camp, which may just be now be known as the "you have GOT to be kidding" party.

I do think Hilary will win. And I cannot possibly be glad about that. But I have to be glad that Trump will be shut down.

.

.

And the fact that he will be shut down by an older woman who is not a model is *slightly* satisfying. Not gonna lie.


Edit: Cross-posted with Rose.
I think you and I are totally on the same page, Rose, and I didn't mean to imply that you yourself had written that Trump is stupid. I just read that a lot, and I don't agree with a bit of it. He's certainly not stupid. Which is too bad, really, because stupid can be cured.
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by River »

So my husband was on a SAR/R squad in Belgrade in 1999.

He's got a blood feud with the Clinton Administration and all hangers-on. He also thinks Trump is a fascist. I told him to vote for the down ballot candidates but sit out the Presidential. I extend the same advice to you, Anth. Or vote for one of the minor party candidates.

One of the things that really shocks me about Trump's rise is he's seeking a public sector position with no actual experience in the public sector. I was a volunteer EMT for three years and I was employed by a Federal lab for two years. This means I have a more public service experience than one of our Presidential candidates. Seriously. I find that alarming. So should everyone else.

Rose, I used to work with someone who was a bit of a handful. After she left I found a list of diagnostic criteria for NPD and it fit her to a T. And yes, there are some thing that only need to be done once if ever. Dealing with a real narcissist (not just someone who takes lots of selfies :P) is one of them.
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superwizard
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by superwizard »

S'wiz, nice to see you here, and thank you very much for your comments. :hug:
Always great to drop by! Glad the new server is up and running!
anthriel wrote:Superwizard: :hug: That is just CRAZY. It makes me want to hit something, hard.

What I think is very problematic is that Trump has risen to the top of the Republican candidacy while saying all that stuff. Perhaps, and this is so unbelievable to me, BECAUSE he is saying all that stuff. He is playing to the fears of people who paint him as "not PC" and "refreshing". Who are these people?! He might be encouraging them, but he hardly created them. And I can't believe that they are all just "evil" or "stupid", no matter how convenient it is to paint someone that way when you disagree with them. I think they're scared. And I think he is a master at manipulating people.

I am a Republican, but boy I'm wondering how I have common ground at all with a party that raised this guy to this level. Unfortunately, there is no possible way that I can be a Democrat. I guess I'm going to join Griffy in the independent camp, which may just be now be known as the "you have GOT to be kidding" party.
Thanks anthy :)!

I think the Republican party is going down a very dangerous path. I definitely don't think all of Trump's support is due to his race baiting but some of it undeniably is and that really changes how people view and identify with the republican party. In 2000 my parents supported Bush and even in 2006/2007, I had tons of Muslim and Arab friends who voted republican but today? It is almost unthinkable. What's going to happen to the republican party if all these minority groups as well as other americans who believe in pluralism decide that they aren't welcome in the GOP? While I personally align with the center left, I am very concerned with the state of our electoral system. If we are going to stick with two parties, those parties have to be inclusive and people have to be able to believe that they can identify with either one. One of them becoming branded as the racist and xenophobic party takes away that choice from people and weakens democracy as a whole. I really do pray that the republican party finds its way so that people who agree with the right on fiscal, domestic and international issues can feel comfortable identifying as republican in the future.

Also, I agree that Trump didn't create the racism and sexism we are seeing by some people on the right but he is normalizing their rhetoric and that is just so terrifying. Rhetoric has consequences and Trump knows that but genuinely doesn't care as long as what he is saying serves his interests in the short term. I do not agree with the Bushes, McCain and Romney on a lot of issues but I have always respected that they understood the importance of rhetoric when it came to issues of race and gender.
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yovargas
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by yovargas »

superwizard wrote:Also, I agree that Trump didn't create the racism and sexism we are seeing by some people on the right but he is normalizing their rhetoric and that is just so terrifying.
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by RoseMorninStar »

River wrote:
Rose, I used to work with someone who was a bit of a handful. After she left I found a list of diagnostic criteria for NPD and it fit her to a T. And yes, there are some thing that only need to be done once if ever. Dealing with a real narcissist (not just someone who takes lots of selfies :P) is one of them.
River, I'm sorry to hear that. I had a family member and also a member of a church I once belonged to with NPD. People with NPD wreak havoc leaving chaos in their wake. I don't believe they are concerned at all (lack empathy)--they have an insatiable desire to win at all costs and will do anything to achieve their goal. They see themselves as victims if they do not get their way.

I have found that the constant use of superlatives (Biggest, best, greatest, grandest, hugest, worst, etc..) is a red flag. Additionally in NPD: a lack of empathy, grandiose sense of self/self-importance, exploitative, requires excessive admiration, arrogant/haughty, belief they are 'special'/unique or high status and are preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success/power, brilliance, etc.. Dead give-a ways.


Also, I agree about the 'normalization' of the rhetoric by average people. Frightening. Sad.
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River
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by River »

I don't remember my labmate using lots of superlatives...but the rest of that, that was her. She had the boss wrapped around her fingers too, and if she ever felt her status was the least bit threatened she'd whisper stuff to him. Maybe she'd remind him of a mistake someone made, or maybe she'd just offer up some snark. He lapped it up with a spoon, though. And the thing of it was she was extremely charismatic so for years the rest of us just forgave her for the havoc she wrecked or bought her excuses for why her screw-ups weren't really her fault. But eventually we all ran out of forgiveness and then she fell back on the hold she had on our boss. It was toxic. Not the only thing toxic about that lab, but an important component for sure.
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RoseMorninStar
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by RoseMorninStar »

They 'groom' people they need (the boss, the minister, etc..) whomever can give them power via with flattery or whatever. They are experts at finding a weakness and use it to accumulate ardent followers who worship them. If you don't fall for their act, you immediately become a target for destruction.
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Túrin Turambar
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by Túrin Turambar »

River wrote:One of the things that really shocks me about Trump's rise is he's seeking a public sector position with no actual experience in the public sector. I was a volunteer EMT for three years and I was employed by a Federal lab for two years. This means I have a more public service experience than one of our Presidential candidates. Seriously. I find that alarming. So should everyone else.
I think that there are many things far more troubling about Trump than this. There is no real correlation between experience in high political office and success in the Presidency - in fact, this FiveThirtyEight article suggests that the correlation may run the other way.

In other words, I don't think that the fact that Trump is coming to the Presidency with a career as a corporate executive is as concerning as the manner in which he has conducted himself in that career.
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anthriel
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by anthriel »

superwizard wrote:
I think the Republican party is going down a very dangerous path. I definitely don't think all of Trump's support is due to his race baiting but some of it undeniably is and that really changes how people view and identify with the republican party. In 2000 my parents supported Bush and even in 2006/2007, I had tons of Muslim and Arab friends who voted republican but today? It is almost unthinkable. What's going to happen to the republican party if all these minority groups as well as other americans who believe in pluralism decide that they aren't welcome in the GOP? While I personally align with the center left, I am very concerned with the state of our electoral system. If we are going to stick with two parties, those parties have to be inclusive and people have to be able to believe that they can identify with either one. One of them becoming branded as the racist and xenophobic party takes away that choice from people and weakens democracy as a whole. I really do pray that the republican party finds its way so that people who agree with the right on fiscal, domestic and international issues can feel comfortable identifying as republican in the future.
There were so many points I wanted to extract and highlight in this paragraph that my post got a little goofy looking... I'm just going to highlight the whole thing. :)

What happens is that it leaves people like me not voting at all. I can't possibly vote for the Democratic nominee, and I would chop my own hand off before voting for the Republican one. So... it leaves a silent middle ground. Middle ground has never gotten much traffic in the primaries, but usually there's something something going on there in the general elections. I got nothing. Really nothing.

I'm going to write in River's name. Anyone with me?
"What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
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yovargas
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by yovargas »

How angry and disenfranchised will the American public have to become before we finally ditch the 2-party system??
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River
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by River »

Have fun with that, anth.

Is there a lab in the White House I can just...like...hide in for the entire term?

Seriously, though, do vote your heart out down ticket. For the top, maybe go all Caligula and nominate your horse?
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Frelga
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by Frelga »

Anthy, I'm curious - if one of the other Republican nominees decided to run as independent, would you vote for him? And which one would you like it to be?

In other news, I finally found a t-shirt that represents my stand in this election. Sadly, they are sold out.
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