2016 United States Election

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Frelga
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by Frelga »

Chicago court to hear 'natural-born' case to knock Ted Cruz off ballot

The case has been filed by a Carson supporter.

Cruz was born in Canada to US citizens, which according to my reading makes him technically a citizen by statute.

I confess to a slight schadenfreude, given Cruz's claims that he supports literal interpretation of Constitution (again, from what I read, don't ask me to quote him), not to mention the nonsense Obama had to put up with regarding his eligibility.
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Dave_LF
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by Dave_LF »

He's a citizen all right, but is he a "natural born" citizen? That's what it comes down to, and there's a lack of clear definition on the subject.
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

As Dave says, it is not an issue that has ever been properly resolved, but my understanding of the term "natural born citizen" is that it describes someone who was born a citizen by right, as differentiated from a naturalized citizen (e.g., someone who was an immigrant and became a citizen after them came here). Kissinger and Schwarzenegger are examples of prominent individuals who never could run for president because they were naturalized citizens. I don't really think it should be an issue for Cruz, but there is a better argument against him then Obama, because it is uncontested that he was born out of the country. Even with all the birth certificate questionings (which always were a load of crap), Obama still was as much a natural born citizen as Cruz, since it is uncontested that he was born a citizen because his mother was a citizen. Its all a big distraction as far as I am concerned.
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Túrin Turambar
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by Túrin Turambar »

Voronwë the Faithful wrote:As Dave says, it is not an issue that has ever been properly resolved, but my understanding of the term "natural born citizen" is that it describes someone who was born a citizen by right, as differentiated from a naturalized citizen (e.g., someone who was an immigrant and became a citizen after them came here). Kissinger and Schwarzenegger are examples of prominent individuals who never could run for president because they were naturalized citizens. I don't really think it should be an issue for Cruz, but there is a better argument against him then Obama, because it is uncontested that he was born out of the country. Even with all the birth certificate questionings (which always were a load of crap), Obama still was as much a natural born citizen as Cruz, since it is uncontested that he was born a citizen because his mother was a citizen. Its all a big distraction as far as I am concerned.
I remember someone putting it this way. There's only two ways to become a U.S. citizen - be born one or be naturalised as one. If you are U.S. citizen and you've never been naturalised, then you must have been a natural-born citizen. There's no third class of people who weren't natural-born citizens but somehow managed to absorb U.S. citizenship by osmosis.
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Inanna
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by Inanna »

That makes sense, Túrin. If he has a US passport without the naturalization process, he is a natural citizen.


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Frelga
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by Frelga »

Well actually...

According to the Wikipedia, you can be either by birth within US or an outlying possession OR by parentage, these two options being granted by different laws.

Again, he is clearly a citizen. But the definition of "natural born" has been challenged multiple times for candidates born outside the US.
His philosophy was a mixture of three famous schools -- the Cynics, the Stoics and the Epicureans -- and summed up all three of them in his famous phrase, 'You can't trust any bugger further than you can throw him, and there's nothing you can do about it, so let's have a drink."

Terry Pratchett, Small Gods
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Primula Baggins
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by Primula Baggins »

But the challengers have always lost.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
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superwizard
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by superwizard »

Irrespective of the actual legality, can we all agree that this issue is ridiculous? I can understand the argument for restricting the presidency to non-naturalized citizens (whether or not I agree is another matter) but where someone was born? How does that change anyone in any way? Quite honestly I don't really care what the authors of the constitution meant when they wrote it, it's clear what it should mean.
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Inanna
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2016 United States Election

Post by Inanna »

Well, just to be contrary, what's the difference between (1) someone born in say, India to one American parent & who lived there for 15 years and then moved to the US and (2) someone born in India to two Indian parents & who lived in India for 15 years?

Or to highlight the difference further - the Indian immigrant moved here when he/she was 1 yr old.

It is all in the legalities, no?


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Túrin Turambar
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by Túrin Turambar »

Inanna wrote:Well, just to be contrary, what's the difference between (1) someone born in say, India to one American parent & who lived there for 15 years and then moved to the US and (2) someone born in India to two Indian parents & who lived in India for 15 years?

Or to highlight the difference further - the Indian immigrant moved here when he/she was 1 yr old.

It is all in the legalities, no?
In practical terms, no difference, but these weren't the circumstances that the Founders were thinking of. They were writing at a time when the U.S. Government was new, and they were concerned that a foreign power could somehow take control of it.

Personally, I agree that the natural-born citizen requirement is obsolete and should go. The U.S prides itself on being a nation where immigrants can rise, and it seems a bit inconsistent to stop them from rising to the Presidency. But while it stays Cruz is still eligible, as was George Romney and every other Presidential candidate who gained U.S. citizenship at birth regardless of where they were born.
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by Túrin Turambar »

Nevada Democratic Caucus results are in, and it looks like Clinton has won with between 52-53% of the vote.

Last week 538 produced this interesting table showing the expected vote shares in all states between Clinton and Sanders if they were tied nationally. Nevada would be expected to favour Clinton by 3%, based on its demographics. This would suggest to me that Sanders is behind Clinton at the moment by 2-3% of the national vote, and that he's gained ground since New Hampshire (which on a 50-50 nationwide split would favour him by 29%) and Iowa (which would favour him by 6%).
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

If exit poll data holds up (which I actually don't expect to happen) the results are a little different than many people expected, with Sanders actually winning the Latino vote, but Clinton still winning the state relatively comfortably. The reason I think that the exit poll data won't hold up is that the actual voting seems to show that she did well in heavy Latino areas. However what is clear is that she did very, very well among African-American voters, which should bode well for next week in South Carolina, in which African-Americans make up a majority of voters in the primary.

Meanwhile, in the GOP South Carolina primary, it already is clear that it will be another landslide for Trump, with Cruz and Rubio battling it out for second, and the other three way behind. I can't imagine that Bush or Carson will continue in the race much longer. Kasich may stick it out for a while, hoping to do well in the mid-western states like Michigan and his home Ohio. We'll see.
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Inanna
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by Inanna »

Yes, Bush is out. And trump is giving his victory speech.


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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

This is extremely disappointing, if true.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_56c8f ... 136f174654

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Inanna
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by Inanna »

Voronwë the Faithful wrote:This is extremely disappointing, if true.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_56c8f ... 136f174654
Well you will have idiot supporters in every campaign.


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Túrin Turambar
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by Túrin Turambar »

From the ABC's satirist Huw Parkinson, the inevitable Trump/Game of Thrones mashup.
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by Primula Baggins »

I think Inanna is right. While this is discouraging, it is also to be expected. I wish for Sanders's sake that it hadn't happened.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Sanders seems to have more than some. And I suspect that in a potential Clinton-Trump contest, many of them will vote for Trump. You see much of that same misogynistic, America-first anti-Immigrant, anti-establishment types that are attracted to both of them.
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yovargas
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by yovargas »

Túrin Turambar wrote:From the ABC's satirist Huw Parkinson, the inevitable Trump/Game of Thrones mashup.
That was amazing.
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Re: 2016 United States Election

Post by axordil »

Friends don't let friends post stuff from HuffPo.

http://www.snopes.com/sanders-english-only-huerta/
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