Same-sex, whole-milk marriage: 50 Shades of Gay

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Primula Baggins
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Re: Same-sex, whole-milk marriage: the Majestic Majority

Post by Primula Baggins »

nerdanel wrote:
Primula Baggins wrote:One difference is time and culture marching on, but I suspect another is that most people in the 1960s didn't have the experience of suddenly discovering that people they knew well and cared about had actually been nonwhite for all those years.
A more cynical take on this is that the public face of the gay rights movement has been disproportionately white, male, and much of the time white and male - which has served the movement very, very well in popularizing and humanizing its cause. In large part due to the socioeconomic advantages and professional standing that the white, male, and white male demographics within the gay community enjoy, the gay rights movement has attracted a landslide of corporate support that has further advanced its objectives. (As one illustration, I used to belong to the Human Rights Campaign's Federal Club, which with their Federal Club Council, is their circle of high-end donors who make substantial contributions and receive invitations to exclusive Federal Club-only events with other high donors. If they had an event with 100 individuals, approximately 85-90 of those would be white gay men, 10 of the remainder would be white OR male (i.e. gay men of color or white lesbian women, more of the former than the latter), and only the meager remainder would be women of color. Between gender, ethnicity, and age, I stood out like a very sore thumb. I think it's fair to say that at most or all of the events I attended, I was the only (then) lesbian-identified woman of color in my 20s present.)

Let's be real: if the dominant public face of the gay rights movement was gender nonconforming women of color and of moderate means, does one single person think that the battle for marriage equality would have moved so far and so fast?
You move(d) in pretty elevated circles, nel; don't you think that any gathering of large donors to anything is likely to be predominantly white and male? I'm not saying that's how it should be, but it seems to be how it is in many causes, from gay rights to political parties to the symphony guild.

The gay people who have been my friends for years, whose kids played with my kids, who worked on choir newsletters with me, etc., are almost all women of moderate means. White women, but this is Oregon, one of the whitest states there is because of our shameful history of sundown laws last century. The kind of acculturation I'm talking about has happened at PTA meetings, on the sidelines at soccer games, at church, at neighborhood potlucks. That's where people who firmly believed they didn't know anyone who was gay have met gay people and families with gay parents and realized that they are people like everyone else.
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Re: Same-sex, whole-milk marriage: the Majestic Majority

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Meanwhile, the good folks in Idaho and Nevada are going to have to wait a little longer (and maybe more than a little longer) before enjoying marriage equality. Although Judge Reinhardt and his colleagues on the Ninth Circuit panel ordered that their order take effect immediately, Justice Kennedy ordered an temporary stay and gave the same sex couples who prevailed in that case until Thursday to respond to the states' request for a more extended stay. It would not make sense to me that the high court would grant such a stay following their action earlier in the week of refusing to hear the other cases, but this court is difficult to predict.
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Re: Same-sex, whole-milk marriage: the Majestic Majority

Post by Dave_LF »

Not meaning to go on an xkcd-posting rampage, but today's is a "serious" comic that speaks directly to the topic and makes an interesting point:
http://xkcd.com/1431/
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Re: Same-sex, whole-milk marriage: the Majestic Majority

Post by Primula Baggins »

Reposted from the previous page:
Primula Baggins wrote:Tomorrow's XKCD:

Image

Rollover text:
People often say that same-sex marriage now is like interracial marriage in the 60s. But in terms of public opinion, same-sex marriage now is like interracial marriage in the 90s, when it had already been legal nationwide for 30 years.
One difference is time and culture marching on, but I suspect another is that most people in the 1960s didn't have the experience of suddenly discovering that people they knew well and cared about had actually been nonwhite for all those years.
I'm not being snarky—I just think it will be convenient for discussion if people can see the cartoon.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Re: Same-sex, whole-milk marriage: the Majestic Majority

Post by Dave_LF »

Wait a minute; "tomorrow's xkcd"?? Hold on a second; has anyone ever seen Prim and Randall Munroe together at the same time?
Last edited by Dave_LF on Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Same-sex, whole-milk marriage: the Majestic Majority

Post by Primula Baggins »

I live on the West Coast. He usually posts the comic about midnight Eastern time, so I'm often still online when it goes up. In fact that's when I usually read it; mornings are busy!

ETA: Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
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Re: Same-sex, whole-milk marriage: the Majestic Majority

Post by Alatar »

Interesting counter argument from a gay Irish journalist.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-a ... -1.1956665
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Re: Same-sex, whole-milk marriage: the Majestic Majority

Post by yovargas »

Huh. That was an oddly nothing article. I read it twice and I have no idea what point he is trying to make.
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Re: Same-sex, whole-milk marriage: the Majestic Majority

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I thought it was pretty straightforward. Instead of trying to be "Just like straight people", he advocates a gay lifestyle that doesn't mimic a straight one.
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Re: Same-sex, whole-milk marriage: the Majestic Majority

Post by yovargas »

Yeah, but what does "a gay lifestyle that doesn't mimic a straight one" even mean? The only thing he mentions is that gay men often choose non-monogamous relationships but, like, so what? That doesn't really have anything to do with anything.
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Re: Same-sex, whole-milk marriage: the Majestic Majority

Post by Alatar »

<shrug> It's not something I feel strongly about but I thought he made an interesting point. YMMV.
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Re: Same-sex, whole-milk marriage: the Majestic Majority

Post by nerdanel »

His argument is perfectly fine if he means that HE does not want to participate in a historically heterosexual institution with patriarchal origins by entering into a legal marriage. Many people, both gay and straight, feel this way, and opt out. His argument is ridiculous if he means that because he does not want to participate in a historically heterosexual institution with patriarchal origins, no same-sex relationship should have legal equality (both as to name and as to rights) under the law. His understanding of his own homosexuality as countercultural and transgressive is perfectly legitimate, but he has no business insisting that every gay person must share this understanding (and thus must agree to being treated differently under the law).

These sentences and phrases are every bit as problematic in their attempt to impose a certain worldview on gay and lesbian individuals and couples as a straight person's attempt to do the same would be:
"the counter-culture responsibilities of the gay community"
"We are, quite simply, different from the norm."
"what we need are laws that celebrate our differences and provide for them"
"marriage, as we understand it in Ireland is a heterosexual construct that has catered for the needs of a paternalistic society and the subjugation of women; so why the gay liberation movement believes it is a fit model for gay people’s lifestyles and values is beyond my comprehension." - the fact that marriage has historically served these functions does not mean that it cannot serve different and better functions in the future. I know many same-sex couples who believe that to the extent their relationships have any "transgressive" value, it is because they offer a model of egalitarian marriage that rejects any concept of gender roles. They believe that there is value to "redefining marriage from the inside." They need to remain free to do this, just as the author remains free to reject the concept of marriage in his own life and celebrate the existence of gay relationships outside of the institution of marriage.

Also re: this: "I know of many same-sex couples who have been joined in civil partnership and I can say with certainty only one of these is grounded in monogamy. This is not a judgment; it is a fact and an accepted way of life for many gay couples, civilly partnered or not."

I very much doubt that he is incorporating a very large sample size of lesbian couples, for starters. While it may be fair to say that there are statistically more male same-sex couples who are non-monogamous than there are heterosexual couples who are non-monogamous (I've certainly seen several studies in my region to this effect, though I'm not sure what Irish studies would show), I haven't seen any studies showing that the same thing is true of lesbian long-term partnerships. So, I'd take particular issue with a man trying to undermine legal equality for lesbian couples based on an argument about the behavior of (SOME) gay male couples.

"However, the family, in this context, is defined only in terms of consisting of parents and children, and it is my belief that until this definition is changed there will never be a same-sex marriage."
What on earth is he talking about?
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Re: Same-sex, whole-milk marriage: the Majestic Majority

Post by yovargas »

nerdanel wrote:What on earth is he talking about?
Exactly. :P
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Re: Same-sex, whole-milk marriage: the Majestic Majority

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

nerdanel wrote:His argument is perfectly fine if he means that HE does not want to participate in a historically heterosexual institution with patriarchal origins by entering into a legal marriage. Many people, both gay and straight, feel this way, and opt out. His argument is ridiculous if he means that because he does not want to participate in a historically heterosexual institution with patriarchal origins, no same-sex relationship should have legal equality (both as to name and as to rights) under the law. His understanding of his own homosexuality as countercultural and transgressive is perfectly legitimate, but he has no business insisting that every gay person must share this understanding (and thus must agree to being treated differently under the law).
As a male heterosexual who has long opted out of participating in a historically heterosexual institution with patriarchal origins by entering into a legal marriage but strongly advocates for the equal right to make ones one choice about making that decision whatever your sexual orientation, um, I agree! :whistle:
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Re: Same-sex, whole-milk marriage: the Majestic Majority

Post by Primula Baggins »

You maverick. :x

And as a female heterosexual who gladly participated in a historically heterosexual institution with patriarchal origins by entering into legal marriage (but with subversive thoughts and untraditional intentions), I too agree. I rejoice in every indication that the institution is changing to reflect who people actually are, and I welcome the opening of marriage to any couple who wants to take part.

Personally I think marriage rocks. :) And can only be enriched by the people coming into it now who have deeply wanted it for a long time and fought hard for their right to it to be recognized.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
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Re: Same-sex, whole-milk marriage: the Majestic Majority

Post by Alatar »

Fine.
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Re: Same-sex, whole-milk marriage: the Majestic Majority

Post by yovargas »

Are you bothered by the response? I didn't get the impression you were endorsing it so much as presenting it for comment. My comment is that I think it's a weird and poorly put together argument :)
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Re: Same-sex, whole-milk marriage: the Majestic Majority

Post by Alatar »

My impression is that nobody is engaging with the argument at all and I'm wondering why I bother posting here any more. :(
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Re: Same-sex, whole-milk marriage: the Majestic Majority

Post by River »

That article echoes something my sister often says. She also takes the position that most gays and lesbians don't really want to marry or are somehow less suited for a committed relationship. Her partner, who is much more romantic, very quietly disagrees. I'm pretty sure my lesbian neighbors, who gleefully took up the opportunity to have a courthouse ceremony in Seattle last year, would also disagree. My position is that what is not forbidden is not compulsory. Anyone who wants to marry should, regardless of gender orientation. Anyone who doesn't want to marry shouldn't, regardless of gender orientation.

What's interesting about my sister is that, while she actively denies both herself and her partner a wedding or wedding-like event, she is clearly jealous of those who do partake of such affairs. It's fun to be celebrate a union. But, at the end of the day, that's her and her partner's problem.

I'm a little confused about the author's comment on gay couples and children. Is he not aware that gay couples do have children? Either by adoption or procreation (lesbians get sperm donors, gay men with the means acquire eggs and a gestational surrogate)? Seriously, my sis and her partner are, as I type this, exploring various avenues of adoption. They were originally going to get pregnant but her partner doesn't want to be pregnant and my sister's eggs were fried by chemotherapy when she was a teen (in the late 90's, no one was talking about preserving the fertility of childhood cancer patients, especially not patients with the prognosis my sister defied). Or does it only count as a family in this person's mind if there's a male and a female and they make the baby together?

It's almost as if he's lamenting that he might end up being less special. Which is silly because, as I mentioned before, allowing something doesn't make is compulsory.
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Re: Same-sex, whole-milk marriage: the Majestic Majority

Post by yovargas »

Like I said, I'm not really sure what his argument is. His point seems to be "gays are different therefore we shouldn't care about marriage" but that statement reads like a borderline non-sequiter to me. It's like he said "dogs are different than cats therefore I don't support immigration". It just makes me go :scratch:

He mentions that non-monogamy is common amongst gay men and also that divorce rates are high but again, I don't see what either of those statements has to do with gays caring about marriage. Unless he's just saying that marriage in general is outdated or something? I dunno.



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