All things concerning Azog and Bolg

[Smaug's voice]

Dp

[Smaug's voice]

Why would anyone assume that?

Yeah. A victor's account doesnt mean we can turn every positive into a negative to get the real event.
Though what you suggest is plausible to be in the account of the defeated.

And I am not familiar with the moral repurcussions to the Gondor part on such an assumption. Please enlighten me.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Why wouldn't you assume it? If you see story as nothing more than the "victor's account" than any claim of goodness becomes suspect.

[Alatar]

If its not white its black? Pretty monochromatic view of the world.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I did not say that. I did not imply that. And there is nothing in the 10 plus years that we have been posting together that would suggest that I look at the world that way.

However, to put this in the simplistic terms that you are using, if it is not white, than it can be black. Or anything in between that is not white. Which means you can't rely on anything, other than that the victors won. Not a very satisfying story, morally, at least from my point of view.

[axordil]

The moral problem with orcs ultimately becomes one of scholastic theology, which is why no answer is very satisfying to modern minds. It really is a maia-on-a-pin thing.

[kzer_za]

Ironically, the scenes where the orcs show a little "humanity" (such as a Shagrat and Gorbag's initial conversation) make the problem bigger, because they suggest that our heroes are not just slaughtering mindless automatons.

Tolkien is sometimes bashed for the orcs. But people who do so generally ignore his moral complexity in other areas, and that he was self-critical enough to realize that it was somewhat of a problem.

[Alatar]

I did not say that. I did not imply that. And there is nothing in the 10 plus years that we have been posting together that would suggest that I look at the world that way.

However, to put this in the simplistic terms that you are using, if it is not white, than it can be black. Or anything in between that is not white. Which means you can't rely on anything, other than that the victors won. Not a very satisfying story, morally, at least from my point of view.

But that's not what you said. You said:

If LOTR is seen as a "victor's account," we can assume that Frodo pushed Gollum over the precipice.

We can assume nothing of the kind. We can accept it is one possibility, but frankly its simply a strawman of the worst kind, and certainly not something I would normally accuse you of. Which is what makes it remarkable.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

There is no difference between my two statements, if you read them carefully enough. The operative word in the latter statement (the earlier one that I made) is "can". If you look at LOTR as merely the "victor's account" you can assume anything, since nothing is certain. The pity and mercy of Bilbo and Frodo? It is just the victors painting themselves in the best light possible.

[Passdagas the Brown]

LOTR is not history, so it's not a victor's account. It's a tale of spiritual battle. Like most myths, I see the story as something of an elaborate representation of the conflicts that happen in one's mind. That may sound like I'm overlaying Jungian philosophy over Tolkien's work, but it's the interpretation that makes most sense to me.

The orcs are not, in Tolkien's final conception, meant to represent actual human beings. They are either ciphers, representing the evil parts of our minds, or they represent the unknown monsters of the dark age mind.

Perhaps they had their origin in real people, wholly demonized by an ignorant dark age mind (such as the Huns). But even if that's the inspiration, in the story they are not human, they are soulless, and thus not redeemable.

It's not a victor's account, it's a faery story with strong echoes of the real world. I believe they are inspired by how dark age Europeans saw the Huns, but that's the key thing - inspired by. Many Europeans wrongly thought of Huns as irredeemable monsters. So Tolkien doesn't give us Huns. He gives us actual monsters. Whole armies of little Grendels called orcs.

[Elentári]

Great DOS VFX breakdown from the LA Times:

http://www.latimes.com/videogallery/792 ... al-effects

Some very cool shots. At 5-6 seconds in you can see the original prosthetic Bolg facing Gandalf. Also at 1:02 before the shot of Gandalf knocking down the structure in Dol Guldur you can see Thrain crossing the walkway, confirming that he was digitally painted out for the final film.


[original link from Annatar598 if mine doesn't work!]

[Alatar]

Just putting url tags around it does the job Elen!

http://www.latimes.com/videogallery/792 ... al-effects

Except in this case apparently! Weird...

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Here's a better link (which includes an interview with Joe Letteri):

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/en ... z2txq9j4yr

[Elentári]

Just putting url tags around it does the job Elen!

http://www.latimes.com/videogallery/792 ... al-effects

Except in this case apparently! Weird...

Exactly, Al - I tried all ways!

Thanks, V

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I also fixed your link. I removed the single quotes around 'The Desolation of Smaug' and now it works.