The Hall of Fire DoS Review Thread

[N.E. Brigand]

Not sure if this has been posted already.
John Rateliff's take on it...

http://sacnoths.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/ ... s.html?m=1

Hmm. I disagree with Rateliff on at least one point. To wit:

Well thief I smell you I feel your air I hear your breath Come you O Smaug the I did not come I to see if you were as great as tales say I did not believe them Do you now flattered Truly songs and tales fall utterly short of O Smaug the Chiefest and Greatest of Calamities You have nice manners for a thief and a liar You seem familiar with my name but I don’t remember smelling before Who are you and where do you come from may I ask I come from under the hill and under hills and over hills my paths led And through the air I am he walks unseen Lovely titles I am Luckwearer Barrel-rider some scheme those miserable tub-trading Lake-men Barrel-rider Barrel dwarves Dwarves Don’t I know the smell and taste of dwarf no one better friends Nothing they skulking outside to do work A share Revenge unassessably wealthy Revenge Revenge The King under the Mountain is dead I eaten his people like a wolf among sheep I kill where I wish I laid low warriors of old I am Thief in the Shadows My armour is my teeth are swords, my claws spears my wings a hurricane death iron No blade can pierce me Truly Your Magnificence you came King under the Mountain

Or if you prefer:

Well thief I smell you I hear your breath I feel your air Come thief in the shadows I did not come you O Smaug the unassessably wealthy I to your magnificence see if you as great as tales say I did not believe them do you now Truly tales and songs fall utterly short of O Smaug the flattery You seem familiar with my name but I don't remember smelling before Who are you and where did you come from may I ask I come from under the hill And under hills and over hills my path led and through the air I am he who walks unseen I am luck-wearer Lovely titles Barrel-rider Barrel dwarf friends dwarves to do work they skulk outside Truly O Smaug Chiefest and Greatest of Calamities You have nice manners for a thief and a liar I know the smell and taste of dwarf no one better The king under the mountain is dead I ate his people like a wolf among sheep I kill where I wish My armour is iron No blade can pierce me Don't nothing My teeth are swords my claws spears my wings a hurricane Barrel-rider You come some scheme those miserable tub-trading Lake-men I laid low warriors of old king under the mountain revenge Revenge Revenge I am death

[kzer_za]

There's also more bad orc dialog than before. "THE FLAMES OF WAR ARE COMING, SHE-ELF!"

Plenty of horrible orc dialogue in LOTR as well.

There are some rosy views of those films that might be amended by another viewing.

Okay, there is - "Looks like meat's back on our menu, boys!" and others. I think the difference is that the lines stick out more (at least to me) with no "human" characters around. We at usually at least have Merry or Pippin or Sam or even Saruman there in scenes where orcs say stupid things, so the hamfisted dialog is more forgiveable because it's not the only thing going on and there's at least one character there who isn't totally one-dimensional.

There are very few "orcs talk about plans" scenes in LotR with no one else around. Besides Gothmog, I guess, but most of his scenes are very quick and that fit into the flow of the battle. I will admit that "the age of men is over, the time of the orc has come" is a rather stupid line, but at least Madril's death is effective. Azog's scene where he kills the minion in AUJ is much worse.

The interrogation scene doesn't fall in this category, but it's one of the only scenes where PJ attempts any hero-orc dialog of any real length. And everyone in that scene has bad lines, though Pace makes the beheading one-liner work (I no longer have a problem with the beheading by the way, at least from the perspective of Thranduil's character development).

I saw the movies last a few months before AUJ came out, so my memory isn't super fresh but it hasn't been THAT long.

The Great Goblin has the best orc dialog in the movies, by the way!

[yovargas]

I think a bigger difference is that the LOTR orc attacks tended to feel more integral to the central plots. Many of the DOS orcs feel like they're just there for the "fun" of watching them get killed.

If you mean the central plot that Tolkien wrote, I would agree, since the Orcs don't really play a role in the book until the end. But in the story that Jackson (I believe rightfully) is telling, I disagree. The Orcs chasing Thorin and his company are integral to the story as Jackson is telling it

If Kili hadn't gotten hit by that arrow, I'd bet you could seamlessly remove every scene with an orc in it without affecting the actual story at all. Some of it will probably pay off in the next movie I guess, but in DOS they accomplish next to nothing storywise.

[Elentári]

I think a bigger difference is that the LOTR orc attacks tended to feel more integral to the central plots. Many of the DOS orcs feel like they're just there for the "fun" of watching them get killed.

If you mean the central plot that Tolkien wrote, I would agree, since the Orcs don't really play a role in the book until the end. But in the story that Jackson (I believe rightfully) is telling, I disagree. The Orcs chasing Thorin and his company are integral to the story as Jackson is telling it

If Kili hadn't gotten hit by that arrow, I'd bet you could seamlessly remove every scene with an orc in it without affecting the actual story at all. Some of it will probably pay off in the next movie I guess, but in DOS they accomplish next to nothing storywise.

If Kili hadn't gotten hit by that arrow one could also remove Tauriel and Legolas from the Lake-town scenes at least, which could be a vast improvement.

[yovargas]

I almost said the same but didn't wanna push it.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I think a bigger difference is that the LOTR orc attacks tended to feel more integral to the central plots. Many of the DOS orcs feel like they're just there for the "fun" of watching them get killed.

If you mean the central plot that Tolkien wrote, I would agree, since the Orcs don't really play a role in the book until the end. But in the story that Jackson (I believe rightfully) is telling, I disagree. The Orcs chasing Thorin and his company are integral to the story as Jackson is telling it

If Kili hadn't gotten hit by that arrow, I'd bet you could seamlessly remove every scene with an orc in it without affecting the actual story at all. Some of it will probably pay off in the next movie I guess, but in DOS they accomplish next to nothing storywise.

That would arguably be true, if DoS was a stand alone story. But, of course, it is not. They are attempting to tell a story over three films, and attempting to explain the orcs that show up at the BoFA, and connect them with the Dol Guldur story that they are including. One could argue that it is not necessary that they explain the orcs, but I understand why they think they need to do so.

N.E.B, that has to be a record for most consecutive, non-duplicative posts!

[Elentári]

So why is firstly Azog and now Bolg trying to stop Thorin from getting to the Lonely mountain? In AUJ we are led to believe it is personal vengeance, and even in the beginning of DoS it seems as though Azog orders Bolg to take over his personal quest without the Necromancer's specific consent or even knowledge.

Yet Bolg tells his surviving troops to "inform Dol Guldur" -not Azog individually - that Oakenshield has reached the Mountain. To me this is indicating that somehow the Orcs think the Dwarves are capable of interfering with Sauron's plan to enlist/utilize Smaug, and it is not a personal vendetta.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I agree, Elen, though I would argue that it is an improvement more than a contradiction. The personal vendetta story in AUJ was silly. Let's hope that it stays sidelined for the rest of the films (i.e., the DoS EE and TaBA).

[Smaug's voice]

I agree. The orc plotline felt more superfluous this time than AUJ.
Though I still HATE the Laketown attack.
Seriously, that is for me the worst scene in either of the hobbit films!
Can't find a place to vent. but man, I distaste it so much!

Oh. And is it only me who dislikes the execution of orc-speech? it's overuse kind of gets on my nerves and pulls me out of the story a bit.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I agree. The orc plotline felt more superfluous this time than AUJ.
Though I still HATE the Laketown attack.
Seriously, that is for me the worst scene in either of the hobbit films!
Can't find a place to vent. but man, I distaste it so much!

You can vent here. You can even start a separate thread about it. I doubt you will get much push back. I don't know anyone who particularly likes that scene (other than Legolas getting a bloody nose ). Though I definitely don't consider it the worst scene in the hobbit films so far. For me, that is the stone giants.

Oh. And is it only me who dislikes the execution of orc-speech? it's overuse kind of gets on my nerves and pulls me out of the story a bit.

I'm pretty sure it is only you. (Just kidding; while I actually like it, I'm sure that there are others who dislike it too.)

[Frelga]

I didn't even like the bloody nose. It's these two ornamental drops. Bloody noses are squashed and swollen.

At some point, I will need to vent in the inconsistencies thread, but I'm a bit time pressed right now.

[Smaug's voice]

I won't vent.
But why I dislike it:

it distracts from the Erebor scene. Thei ntercutting feels completely forced. And intercutting should be between two equal scenes so that the audience cares for BOTH scenes - like the RotK climax. Here we have Bilbo, Balin and Thorin and the dwarves we
care for facing THE dragon - the most awaited confrontation and then we have a screaming Kili and also two elves coming out of nowhere conveniently to clear out orcs coming out of nowhere. Kili needs elvish medicine. How
convenient. Elves arrive.

Also, why are there no men to be seen in Laketown? They could have been afraid but in this case you could have seen their faces through the window. And they weren't.

Lastly, while I liked the Bolg-Legolas fight it went longer than it should. And I dislike the smashed nose Legolas. It seemed very cliched
to me.

The Stone giants sequence atleast had the WoW factor, visually. And I do like the beginning of that scene (not after that!). But nearly everything was off in that scene from DoS, imo.

[Elentári]

I saw it for only the second time yesterday, in HFR 3D...my glasses started to hurt one of my ears about 1/2 hour in which was really distracting. Still don't like the HFR/3D. I've decided the best way I can describe it is that it is as though I am watching a stage play really close-up. I do think a major part of it for me is attributable to the 3D but because everything is kind of "hyper-real" and exaggerated perspective to me, in my mind I can't suspend belief so easily. Guess it's that "uncanny valley" that Yov mentioned a while back.

I did remember to look out for some things discussed on the boards such as Bombur on the stretcher (which I spotted in the double Bilbo shots) and Thorin in profile against the giant head of Thror. But I have to say that my overall feeling during the movie was actually one of boredom.

[kzer_za]

I
won't vent.
But

it distracts from the Erebor scene. The intercutting feels completely
forced. And intercutting should be between two equal scenes - like the
RotK climax. Here we have Bilbo, Balin and Thorin and the dwarves we
care for facing THE dragon - the most awaited confrontation and then we a
screaming Kili and also two elves coming out of nowhere conveniently to
clear out orcs coming out of nowhere. Kili needs elvish medicine. How
convenient. Elves arrive.

I agree, it does taint the climax. And it also takes the focus away from Bard, whose little plotline is actually directly connected to what's going on in Erebor.

Also, it's just absurd how two elves kill so many orcs so easily with basically no help. Our heroes killing lots of orcs is nothing new, but here it stretches to the breaking point. Okay, the Legolas Mumak takedown comes close, but even that was when they were already winning the battle anyway. Bolg beating up Legolas mitigates this a bit (though now I'm afraid Legolas might kill Bolg), but still.

[Passdagas the Brown]

So why is firstly Azog and now Bolg trying to stop Thorin from getting to the Lonely mountain? In AUJ we are led to believe it is personal vengeance, and even in the beginning of DoS it seems as though Azog orders Bolg to take over his personal quest without the Necromancer's specific consent or even knowledge.

Yet Bolg tells his surviving troops to "inform Dol Guldur" -not Azog individually - that Oakenshield has reached the Mountain. To me this is indicating that somehow the Orcs think the Dwarves are capable of interfering with Sauron's plan to enlist/utilize Smaug, and it is not a personal vendetta.

I think it is a personal vendetta for Azog (who says to Sauron something like "you promised me Oakenshield!" after being asked by Sauron to stay in Dol Guldur), while Sauron generally doesn't care (as he probably thinks there's little chance of Thorin even getting to the mountain).

However, once Bolg finds out that Thorin has actually reached the mountain, he determines that this might be of interest to Sauron, whose interest in Smaug and the Lonely Mountain is primarily strategic. Thorin showing up, and disturbing the dragon before Sauron is ready to act, might throw a small wrench in Sauron's strategic plan, so to speak, and Bolg (being more intelligent than your average orc) feels informing Sauron about this development may be important.

Is this too convoluted? Yes. Why? Likely because PJ and company haven't really thought it through so carefully.

[Passdagas the Brown]

I agree. The orc plotline felt more superfluous this time than AUJ.
Though I still HATE the Laketown attack.
Seriously, that is for me the worst scene in either of the hobbit films!
Can't find a place to vent. but man, I distaste it so much!

Oh. And is it only me who dislikes the execution of orc-speech? it's overuse kind of gets on my nerves and pulls me out of the story a bit.

I actually prefer orcs using black speech. Something about it adds a layer of verisimilitude. It gives the orcs a "bestial life of their own" to paraphrase Tolkien in "Monsters and the Critics."

[Voronwë the Faithful]

So why is firstly Azog and now Bolg trying to stop Thorin from getting to the Lonely mountain? In AUJ we are led to believe it is personal vengeance, and even in the beginning of DoS it seems as though Azog orders Bolg to take over his personal quest without the Necromancer's specific consent or even knowledge.

Yet Bolg tells his surviving troops to "inform Dol Guldur" -not Azog individually - that Oakenshield has reached the Mountain. To me this is indicating that somehow the Orcs think the Dwarves are capable of interfering with Sauron's plan to enlist/utilize Smaug, and it is not a personal vendetta.

I think it is a personal vendetta for Azog (who says to Sauron something like "you promised me Oakenshield!" after being asked by Sauron to stay in Dol Guldur), while Sauron generally doesn't care (as he probably thinks there's little chance of Thorin even getting to the mountain).

However, once Bolg finds out that Thorin has actually reached the mountain, he determines that this might be of interest to Sauron, whose interest in Smaug and the Lonely Mountain is primarily strategic. Thorin showing up, and disturbing the dragon before Sauron is ready to act, might throw a small wrench in Sauron's strategic plan, so to speak, and Bolg (being more intelligent than your average orc) feels informing Sauron about this development may be important.

Is this too convoluted? Yes. Why? Likely because PJ and company haven't really thought it through so carefully.

I don't think it is too convoluted. I think it is exactly right (and what the filmmakers intended). I'm just glad that in this film the emphasis moved from the personal vendetta to Sauron's strategic plan.

[N.E. Brigand]

The Hobbit is less laborious in that sense, giving an air of freshness and adventure not dissimilar to the original Star Wars trilogy.

Take that back.

That's an apt comparison which Al himself made in his first comments. Alas (blasphemy alert!), I've always thought Star(t) Wars was pretty dumb.

Take. That. BACK!!!

Not sure what I am supposed to be taking back, but I will say that I prefer the original Star Wars trilogy to all The Lord of the Rings and Hobbit films. Does that bring me back to your good side?

Rather than Star Wars, I've long felt that there was another three-film set adapted from a novel that ought to be compared to Jackson's work: The Human Condition (1959-61). But it's rarely mentioned in that regard.

[sauronsfinger]

My grandson and I saw it for the third time this afternoon - the first for non 3D. We both prefer it in 3D.

I did see the tiniest glimpse of putting Bofur down on the stretcher in Mirkwood but if you did not know to look for it you would never see it.

I love it more than ever.

When we left I asked my grandson if we have had enough of it yet and he said at least three more viewings.

Happy New Year to all.

[Elentári]

Happy New Year, sf...I hope your second retirement is happy and fulfilling. Enjoy!