Riots in Tunisia (and throughout the Middle-East)

[Primula Baggins]

Well we agree then.
Despite our supposed "enlightenment", we are still animals, and what we perceive as knowledge is mostly just hooey. The true animals had it right all along. Animal instinct is vastly superior to human knowledge.

I'll never agree.

Just because we can use our human abilities to do awful things, that doesn't mean we're doomed to only that. It's our human abilities that make it possible for us to be compassionate, creative, inventive, and generous.

We aren't always. But the fact that we aren't 100% the best we can be makes us, well, human. And still better (within our own cultural standards) than animals can be (as much as I love some of them).

[Túrin Turambar]

In Sydney yesterday, a proud mum takes a picture of her toddler:



I do despair of human progress sometimes.

[Frelga]

Holby, you insult animals. I doubt wolf packs attack each other because one wolf said something about a wolf long dead.

[vison]

Holby, you insult animals. I doubt wolf packs attack each other because one wolf said something about a wolf long dead.

Pretty much, Frelga.

The one difference between men and wolves is that men can reason and wolves don't.

No wolves ever built a mosque or a hospital. Men do. Have wolves had wars? Perhaps. Apes and monkeys seem to.

We CAN act out of reason but when reason is always set aside for ideology it doesn't happen very often.

See, let's imagine some angry Islamic youth sitting here: "Ahmed" you say, "tell me, do you really thing Allah is angry because someone made a stupid movie? Couldn't Allah smite that guy if he wanted? But has he?"

Ahmed squirms. "The movie insulted Mohammed!" He covers his ears.

"So," you say, "can't we leave it for Allah to deal with?"

"NO!" He is angrier than ever. "It is the Evil Uncle Sam! He made the movie to insult us!"

"Tell you what, Ahmed. There's a job for you in the oil patch. $10 US dollars an hour and housing. Whaddya say?"

That's the answer. Pleas for tolerance only go so far when you live in squalor and have no hope.

[anthriel]

My mom says the problem is that we are trying to stuff our way of life down their throats, and they will never have democracies there. Do you guys think that is fair?

[axordil]

My mom says the problem is that we are trying to stuff our way of life down their throats, and they will never have democracies there. Do you guys think that is fair?

I think "never" is a long, long time, so in that respect, I do not believe it fair.

In terms of our way of life...what exactly is our way of life? I mean, there's a significant percentage of the US population that doesn't really accept things like freedom of religion or freedom of speech or equal treatment of genders, races, et al. There's another chunk, perhaps a majority, that doesn't bother to think about them so long as American Idol is interesting. Are we talking the ideals we claim to aspire to or the everyday world of most people?

[River]

My mom says the problem is that we are trying to stuff our way of life down their throats, and they will never have democracies there. Do you guys think that is fair?

Given that the Arab Spring was more or less homegrown, I wouldn't say that's fair at all. However, the US isn't necessarily going to like the outcomes of some of the elections...and if we, as a nation, truly stand for spreading freedom and democracy and so on, we're going to have to live with that. That last bit is not something we have historically been particularly good at (Chile, anyone?). But if we honestly want democracy to spread, we have to change our ways.

BTW, I had a long conversation with S about this last night. There was a time, in the 90's, when hte US government backed Milosevic. Milosevic was not particularly popular among Serbs - he led them into a massive economic crisis and stole a couple elections to stay in power and he did lovely things like shut down independent media outlets when they said things he didn't like and fire university faculty when they struck him as disloyal (S was finished with school when that happened, but he went to see one of his former professors very coolly give his lecture out on the lawn because he'd been locked out of his classroom). But the foreign backing of his government made it almost impossible for the opposition to make any headway. This lasted for only a few years, but in S's own words, "You can't imagine how much we hated America for that."

In the Mideast, we backed up dictators and despots for decades. Mubarak held power in Egypt for 40 years. And we backed (and still back, in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia and some other places) these governments because they either sold us oil or because they gave us a military advantage or, in the case of Egypt, buffered Israel. Israel's the other big scapegoat in that part of the world. You really think anyone's going to forgive us for these crimes quickly or easily?

I'm not saying we should apologize. We haven't and we won't and I'm not sure it would make the slightest bit of difference if we did. But we need to start being honest. Eventually, and it'll take decades, trust will get established. And one of the things we need to do, to be honest, is openly answer this question: do we stand for democracy or not? Then we need to act on that answer and part of that is simply accepting the results of a free and fair election WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT.

[Impenitent]

It's our human abilities that make it possible for us to be compassionate, creative, inventive, and generous.

I believe this isn't quite so. Recent research (and I recall seeing a couple of youtube clips only this year demonstrating the findings) suggests that many animals are also capable of compassion, generosity and inventiveness - it has certainly been demonstrated with primates and elephants.

Not joining the intellectual argument here, but putting in an aside.

[Holbytla]

My mom says the problem is that we are trying to stuff our way of life down their throats, and they will never have democracies there. Do you guys think that is fair?

I don't know the answer to that, but my oldest son who's spent ten months in Afghanistan and my second oldest who is on month 8 there both say the same thing, and these two kids are vastly different in most ways, especially politically. The people don't want us there, and as soon as we remove our influence, they'll revert back to the way things were. They want no part of a centralized government and want to continue on as tribes. We want a centralized government there to stem the flow of Al Qaeda and the Taliban, but that is our want, not their's.

I have no idea how accurate that is, but that is their take on things after spending time there.

[Impenitent]

I agree with Holby, but, as Ax said, "Never is a long time."

And Ax is right; we need to take the idealistic specs off and see our everyday world - and the people in it - as they really are.

[axordil]

In Sydney yesterday, a proud mum takes a picture of her toddler:

I do despair of human progress sometimes.

Parents pose their kids with all sorts of hateful stuff. Witness the Westboro "Baptist Church". I refuse to post a picture of them on moral grounds, but they're easy enough to find.

[axordil]

My mom says the problem is that we are trying to stuff our way of life down their throats, and they will never have democracies there. Do you guys think that is fair?

I don't know the answer to that, but my oldest son who's spent ten months in Afghanistan and my second oldest who is on month 8 there both say the same thing, and these two kids are vastly different in most ways, especially politically. The people don't want us there, and as soon as we remove our influence, they'll revert back to the way things were. They want no part of a centralized government and want to continue on as tribes. We want a centralized government there to stem the flow of Al Qaeda and the Taliban, but that is our want, not their's.

I have no idea how accurate that is, but that is their take on things after spending time there.

It is absolutely in the interest of the people who have benefited from enforced backwardness to continue it. The trick is to get tribal leaders to sign onto a program that leads to the emasculation of tribalism.

ETA by the light of day: This is a much more general statement about the human condition than I thought when I wrote it. Every time I see a stream of people in Cardinal red get on the light rail to go to a game I am reminded of how strong and how insidious the tribal impulse is. Damn you, primate heritage.

[Primula Baggins]

It's our human abilities that make it possible for us to be compassionate, creative, inventive, and generous.

I believe this isn't quite so. Recent research (and I recall seeing a couple of youtube clips only this year demonstrating the findings) suggests that many animals are also capable of compassion, generosity and inventiveness - it has certainly been demonstrated with primates and elephants.

Not joining the intellectual argument here, but putting in an aside.

And a perfectly good one. But animal compassion and generosity are on an animal scale. Humans are capable of the same on a scale that includes humans outside their own tribe or homeland and whom they've never met. I can't help thinking this is more important.

And, inventiveness—I wasn't thinking of the trait itself as the virtue, but the things that are invented, that save lives and feed the hungry and bring us together in a worldwide network of knowledge and communication. Animal inventiveness, real though it is, is not on remotely that scale.

[axordil]

The traits that are smoldering embers in animals become fully-fanned flames in humans, good and bad, because of the blessing/curse of language.

On a related note:

http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2012/09/a ... tress.html

The amount of deception involved with the production of the "movie" in question is exceeded only in the amount of self-deception necessary on the part of the producers in believing any good could come of it. Seeing yourself as striking a blow against something evil is a common human delusion, but when it requires hoodwinking an entire movie cast and crew, and then putting them all in danger, that might be a hint that you're actually just batshit crazy.

[vison]

I would not be particularly surprised to learn that "Taliban" or "al Quaeda" money went to the making of that movie. Not saying it did, but wouldn't be surprised.

The guy who made it is weird, just plain weird. I cannot fathom what his motives REALLY were, or if he knows himself.

Islam, as I've said before, is overdue for a reformation. Ironically, it is the "fault" of the US and other western powers that it hasn't happened yet. By continuing to prop up the dictators in the MidEast, they corked the natural upflow of democratic ideas.

I watched about 3 minutes of that Tony Robbins person interviewing T. Boone Pickens, and 2 other guys last night. While they creep me out, they're right: GET OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST!!!

You don't need that oil any more.

[Túrin Turambar]

Islam, as I've said before, is overdue for a reformation.

My concern (albeit only a concern, not a certainty) is that Islam is having one, but not the type of reformation that we in the secular west would particularly like. Fundamentalists, operating out of Saudi Arabia and backed by oil money, have been extremely successful in exporting their austere brand of Wahabism. There are thousands of unemployed and disaffected young men for whom fundamentalism offers easy answers. Today, for example, Muslim women from cultures which had no previous history of wearing veils, like Malays or Pakistanis, often now wear them. Egypt was once a largely-secular state and even had Jewish cabinet ministers. Now some recent polling I read on the BBC suggested that a clear majority of Egyptians may now support the death penalty for apostasy. Sharia has been introduced in Nigeria, which never had it before.

I was asked on TORC for more comments on the riots in Sydney, so I’ll cross-post below. One question which has been raised here is why there was rioting among Sydney’s Muslims but not Melbourne’s. This, in turn, might suggest things about the politics of Islam generally. Several suggestions have been made.

Sydney’s Muslim community is heavily-concentrated in the same south-western area of the city, and tends to be more insular, while Muslims in Melbourne seem to live more spread-out and so are more integrated. The extremist organisation Hizb ut-Tahrir and a number of extremist preachers are active in Sydney but not in Melbourne. One factor which has not been mentioned but I think is relevant is that Sydney’s Muslims are largely Arab, particularly first- and second-generation Lebanese immigrants, while Melbourne’s are largely Turkish and Bosnian. It is probably un-PC to make observations like this, but Arab countries seem to be far more volatile as far as this sort of thing goes.

Most Australian Muslims obviously did not join the protests, and a significant number of religious leaders condemned them. I work with a few Muslims, none of whom showed any inclination to riot today. But the fact that, immediately after the riots, Hizb ut-Tahrir held a conference was held in Sydney where an eight-year-old girl called for global jihad shows us that we face a significant challenge nonetheless.

[Impenitent]

My concern (albeit only a concern, not a certainty) is that Islam is having one, but not the type of reformation that we in the secular west would particularly like.

I think those of us living in western secular democracies delude ourselves in thinking that, if only "they" had the opportunity and the education, "they" would embrace secular democracy.

But "they" may not want to do so at all, and not just because of the the very real situation Lord_M describes above, which defines "their" paradigm.

Many - not necessarily uneducated, nor economically and politically oppressed, nor surviving in war-torn conditions - may genuinely strive towards the establishment of an ideal (even idyll) that they believe in, a national way of life based on a theology which, if faithfully and altruistically abided by, would provide them with a way of life they desire for themselves and their children and all generations.

Our cultural paradigm is not theirs.

I watched a most interesting current affairs program last night (will try to find links online) on which two very articulate and intelligent young Australian Muslims were interviewed. They suggested that the root of the riots was not in the ridiculous film itself - which is getting much more attention than it deserves - but in the sense of humiliation experienced by Muslims worldwide, the feeling that they are always on the back foot and consistently disrespected.

Of course, it is all that and more. The economic issues vison discussed, the political oppression in various parts of the world, the swing towards fundamentalism, even the 'lad' or 'yob' element common to young men in some cultures where bravado is applauded and manliness is measured through aggression.

[axordil]

That sense of humiliation arises in great part because Islam was the most important cultural force on the planet for 700-800 years, and then, in a relatively brief period of time, it stopped. As in froze in time and space. After the last Siege of Vienna, Islam had nowhere to expand, and the contraction began.

There is always an underlying sense of "but can't you see?" between largely successful cultural paradigms. Historically this has let to bad things. It would be nice if that stopped.

[Impenitent]

Couldn't find a link to the program I referred to above, but here's an article by Waleed Aly, the young academic who was interviewed. He makes the same points brilliantly - an exposition on the world wide phenomenon, I think

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politi ... 260e8.html

[superwizard]

My mom says the problem is that we are trying to stuff our way of life down their throats, and they will never have democracies there. Do you guys think that is fair?

The problem with this statement is that the 'they' in this statement is far too broad. Tribesmen in Afghanistan and city dwellers in Syria have very, very little in common. Their cultures may have some overlapping strands but they are about as different as Americans and Brazilians (different language, different heritage etc). Now I would say that arabs from the Levantine area and Northern Africa (think Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Sudan, Morocco, Libya...) do want democracy. They might have a different understanding of freedom of speech from the US (many countries do) but in the end they would tell you that they want to elect their leaders. Arabs from the Gulf region (Saudi, Kuwait, UAE...) are much more tribal and are more likely to be content with their current governments. I'm not saying they don't necessarily want democracy but that they are less likely to go out on the streets and fight for it.

My concern (albeit only a concern, not a certainty) is that Islam is having one, but not the type of reformation that we in the secular west would particularly like.

There has been some of this problem with Saudi Arabia and its more puritanical strain of Islam. While not necessarily violent in and of itself, it is definitely more conservative and less accepting of 'western' society. Saudi has managed to change the religion in many countries by offering to teach religious scholars from around the world for free, opening new mosques and staffing them in different part of the world and by heavily subsidizing books that they agree with.

That said I'm interested in seeing what happens in egypt and elsewhere now that the religious parties have come to power. It may be that, similar to Hizbollah in Lebanon and the leaders in Iran, the people become disillusioned with these leaders and we might start seeing some waning in their support.

I honestly cannot tell you how infuriating it is being a Muslim during these times. When the riots occurred over the silly trailer I felt honest to goodness shame. Shameful and angry. People naturally look to me to explain this kind of behavior and I see myself having to explain that I don't personally believe in this behavior and it's just plane painful.