I'll be back to talk about Sea-longing later.
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/77smile.gif)
I really don't see how the texts that were used for the published Sil can be considered to be more "canon" then other texts written contemporaneously. For instance, Chapter Two of the published text consists of two short pieces of work that were molded together and inserted into the Sil even though neither of them were a part of the Quenta Silmarillion. The first was a document that was in a paper wrapper paper wrapper bearing the words "Amended Legend of Origin of Dwarves" that was related to a much later chapter in the QS. The second was a completely unrelated (and frankly highly whimsical) work that Tolkien drafted towards the end of his life regarding the Ents and the Eagles, which was utterly unrelated to work on the Quenta Silmarillion. How could these scraps of work be considered more canon, then the Athrabeth, which was a highly completed work which Tolkien explicitly stated was to be included as an "appendix" to the Silmarillion, and which contains some of Tolkien's most profound words?Sassafras wrote:Which of the works related to the Sil are considered canon by the majority of Tolkien scholars? Is there a consensus?
How does one pick and choose between, say, the published Sil and the several volumes of HoME? Is the Athrabeth canon? (I would think so).
The Ambarkanta was written, according to CT, who cites it as being of "cardinal interest", as a "fine manuscript in ink, with very little emendation." It is a complete essay, not a series of notes. Written sometime in the early to mid Thirties, before the Ainulindalë and Quenta Silmarillion, it was definitely not "random musings" nor a case of "building his foundations after the house". As a matter of fact, I think its creation fits well with Tolkien's inclination to construct a physical "model" for his tales at early or pivotal stages of their development, through diagrams, maps, and detailed descriptive notes; as if he needs to "see" the setting clearly before the narrative can be fully formed.Alatar wrote:what I see here is Tolkien building his foundations after the house. In some way trying to make them work. I don't belive the foundations were there when the Myths were written, but rather an attempt to rationalise them after the fact.
*snip*
Yet you seem to suggest that not buying into every aspect of this diagram somehow means that I'm missing the "foundations" of the story. These "foundations" are nothing more than abstract constructs that JRRT may well have rejected out of hand.
*snip*
Obviously, some believe that the construction of Arda has deep philosophical meaning. I simply don't. What I have read strikes me as random musings rather than a unified blueprint
I agree that the echo of the music is a strong theme in both the Sil and LOTR, but it is not, IMO, the same thing as the Sea-longing, which isn't just about ancient wisdom and beauty and truth found in the "sigh and murmur" of waves, but about "taking sail" and departing from Middle-earth over the Sea and into the West.Well, the sea is primarily to the West... I would have though that was obvious enough. To me the sea longing is the echo of the music of the Ainur that is held in water. Even Hobbits can feel that connection because it relates to them as much as any other living thing. Valinor has no such attraction for a hobbit.
Yes, even as remarkable a hobbit as Meriodoc Brandybuck turned away from the sea, as his conversation with Haldir in Lothlórien shows.Athrabeth wrote:I agree that the echo of the music is a strong theme in both the Sil and LOTR, but it is not, IMO, the same thing as the Sea-longing, which isn't just about ancient wisdom and beauty and truth found in the "sigh and murmer" of waves, but about "taking sail" and departing from Middle-earth over the Sea and into the West.
From the Prologue:
And as the days of the Shire lengthened they spoke less and less with Elves, and grew afraid of them; and the Sea became a word of fear among them, and a token of death, and they turned their faces away from the hills in the west.
ONLY Frodo, and later Sam, experience the Sea-longing: this is a very significant fact. It is primarily an Elvish yearning that once experienced, can never be fully assuaged. It's why Galadriel "warns" Legolas about hearing the gulls......because once his heart turns to the sea, the longing for his people's home in the West will inevitably draw him away even from the woods of Middle-earth that he loves so deeply.
'Happy folk are Hobbits todwell near the shores of the sea!' said Haldir. 'It is long indeed since any of my folk have looked on it, yet still we remember it in a song. Tell me of these havens as we talk.'
'I cannot,' said Merry. 'I have never seen them. I have never been out of my own land before. And if I had known what the world outside was like, I don't think I should have had the heart to leave it.'
The only other Mortal that I can think of who felt the Sea-longing was Tuor, son of Huor, the ancestor of the Numenorians. But Tuor was a special case, specially chosen by Ulmo as His instrument in penetrating the rift in the armour of Fate, the breach in the walls of Doom: the last hope of the Noldor. And therefore his fate was not as those of other Mortals:Men of Numenorian descent also feel the draw of "the West" over the Sea for their own reasons:
but the exiles on the shores of the sea, if they turned towards the West in the desire of their hearts, spoke of mar-nu-Falmar that was whelmed in the waves, Akallabêth the Downfallen, Atalantë in the Eldarin tongue.
It's about yearning for what has been lost.
And it was lost in the bending of the world.
But it was Tuor's faithful friend and guide who spoke the words about the Sea that always move my heart the most (as my friends from the old days will recognize:But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered for the fate of Men.
*Sigh*Voronwë sighed, and spoke then softly as if to himself. 'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.
Ok, I won't labour the point any more. I still hold to my original opinion that the Silmarillion is lessened rather than improved by this concept, but I won't attempt to convince you of that. I can remain happy in my own private, blissful ignorance.Athrabeth wrote: The Ambarkanta was written, according to CT, who cites it as being of "cardinal interest", as a "fine manuscript in ink, with very little emendation." It is a complete essay, not a series of notes. Written sometime in the early to mid Thirties, before the Ainulindalë and Quenta Silmarillion, it was definitely not "random musings" nor a case of "building his foundations after the house". As a matter of fact, I think its creation fits well with Tolkien's inclination to construct a physical "model" for his tales at early or pivotal stages of their development, through diagrams, maps, and detailed descriptive notes; as if he needs to "see" the setting clearly before the narrative can be fully formed.
One does not have to accept it or like it or even fathom it, but I think it should at least be acknowledged as a significant and meaningful foundation for the physical cosmos in which the narrative takes place.
When you refer to the desire to sail west, that is not sea-longing. That is desire for rest, for final peace. Sam and Frodo feel that because they were ringbearers and because Frodo can only be healed in Aman. In consequence Sam can only find final rest in Aman because Frodo is there. Sam's heart does not need an Elvish heaven. It needs Frodo. While it can be argued that Frodo feels an "elvish yearning", Sam most certainly does not.I agree that the echo of the music is a strong theme in both the Sil and LOTR, but it is not, IMO, the same thing as the Sea-longing, which isn't just about ancient wisdom and beauty and truth found in the "sigh and murmur" of waves, but about "taking sail" and departing from Middle-earth over the Sea and into the West.
<snip>
ONLY Frodo, and later Sam, experience the Sea-longing: this is a very significant fact. It is primarily an Elvish yearning that once experienced, can never be fully assuaged.
Again, this is a yearning for Númenor that was, not for Aman.Men of Numenorian descent also feel the draw of "the West" over the Sea for their own reasons:
but the exiles on the shores of the sea, if they turned towards the West in the desire of their hearts, spoke of mar-nu-Falmar that was whelmed in the waves, Akallabêth the Downfallen, Atalantë in the Eldarin tongue.
It's about yearning for what has been lost.
And it was lost in the bending of the world.
Like I've been saying......it's about yearning for what was lostIn consequence Sam can only find final rest in Aman because Frodo is there. Sam's heart does not need an Elvish heaven. It needs Frodo.
For me, it's definitely more than just seeking for a specific place.I wrote:To me, the "Sea longing" is symbolic of both losing and gaining, leaving and returning, and yes, even death and renewal.
If that is the case than for once I have to say I am happy Christopher went against Tolkien wishes. I am sorry that the round earth theory was never completed but that leaves us with only the flat world. I simply refuse to ignore The Sil because it is too beautiful to ignore. I wish that Tolkien had finished the round world from beggining theory but alas all there is are a few incomplete fragments. So I will stick with the flat world and be content with it.scirocco wrote:IMHO, it's quite possible by 1960, say, that JRRT preferred not to publish the Sil at all, because "you cannot do this anymore" and he could not find a way to re-work it in a convincing manner.
To that question I have no idea. I personally dismissed them as simply rhymes with no real meaning but if you have any other ideas please tell me.scirocco wrote:Where do the little cameos of the Moon in the "Cat and the Fiddle", and the poem of The Man in the Moon Came Down too Soon, fit into the "Moon As Chariot For A Maiar Spirit" or "Moon As A Lump Of Rock" viewpoints?
Not really. The evidence seems to be that the Ambarkanta view of the universe largely survived in the post-LOTR work on the Sil material. As I have cited before:scirocco wrote:If I may butt in, I thought that Christopher Tolkien had demonstrated that the Ambarkanta had largely been superseded in Tolkien's thinking, as part of his move away from the very literal, specific geography of the older Book of Lost Tales style of writing, towards the more "figurative" approach of his more mature years? But I'm not fully au fait with all that, and perhaps I should save it for the other thread we have going on the subject.
Amid all the ambiguities (most especially, in the use of the word 'World'), the testimony seems to be that in these texts the Ambarkanta world image survived at least in the conception of the Outer Sea extending to the Wall of the World, now called the Walls of the Night -- thought the Walls have come to be differently conceived (see also p. 135, § 168). Now in the revision of 'The Silmarillion' made in 1951 the phrase in QS § 12 (V.209) 'the Walls of the World fence out the Void and the Eldest Dark' -- a phrase in perfect agreement of course with the Ambarkanta was retained. [Morgoth's Ring, pp. 63-64].
It doesn't appear explicitly in LOTR, no, but I will argue that the philosophical concepts that stem from that view of the physical universe are implicit in LOTR.And it certainly doesn't appear in LOTR, which is what we are discussing.
I think I may have given people a few misconceptions about my views on the whole RWASATMFTB issue. I'm as disappointed as most people that Tolkien ever went down that track. I certainly do not think it is an improvement in a "literary" sense from the original concepts, even if it (perhaps) makes for a more physically consistent world. I don't think the Silmarillion could have been as easily converted as Alatar is suggesting, and I'm convinced by the arguments put forward here with the difficulties of all the common characters and events that link the First and the Third&Fourth Ages. I've argued on TORC that Tolkien was not successful in his attempts to try and make the conversion, and I yield to no-one in my love and appreciation of the Straight Road concept as "real" and "true".
Yes, I would say that I agree with all of this. As much as I don't agree with the RWASATMFTB theories that are contained in the Myths Transformed section of Morgoth's Ring, I think it clear that Tolkien was serious about it. I think the evidence of his failing to publish a version of the Sil despite the strong pressure from the publisher is pretty compelling. The other piece of evidence that I mentioned previously -- that in the late piece that he wrote about the Ents and Eagles that CT used to form the second part of Chapter Two of the published Sil there was a part of a sentence that CT removed because it implied that the sun existed from the beginning of Arda -- also strongly shows how committed Tolkien was at that point to the change.But J.R.R Tolkien did not publish the Silmarillion, and despite the fervent attempts of many here I remain unconvinced that, having "missed the boat" at the end of the 1940's, he would have wanted to publish it in largely that form (or that framework, at least). He had a long period of time during the late 50's and 60's when publishing houses would have killed for the chance to publish, and the pressure was immense, as can be seen from Letters, but he did not do so (admittedly partly because of the general incompleteness of the tales). The RWASATMFTB theories were no mere aberrations, no dabbling around the edges (even if they were so in 1948); they were strongly held views that Tolkien would have felt obligated to carry through. IMHO, it's quite possible by 1960, say, that JRRT preferred not to publish the Sil at all, because "you cannot do this anymore" and he could not find a way to re-work it in a convincing manner. I suspect that the "better something than nothing" of Letter 133 had become "better nothing than something I no longer believe in, or can't justify".
And I have to say that no it could not. Even though, as I agreed above, the Ambarkanta description of the universe is not explicitly described in LOTR, in my opinion (which I admit can not be helped but be influenced my own perspective) the Straight Road concept is so embedded philosophically in LOTR that it would be impossible to separate it from it, even if the Silmarillion and all the other material had never been published. Remember the words of the Foreword (which after all has to be considered part of what Tolkien himself published:So that leaves us with where I was trying to start the thread from, with only LOTR as reflecting Tolkien's intent as at the end of his life (and TATB, interestingly enough, which I'll touch on later). And I wanted to discuss in this thread whether LOTR could fit with that intent.
I don't think that LOTR can be separated, philosophically, from the more ancient history as it existed when Tolkien wrote LOTR. The sense of loss is so deeply embedded in LOTR that it is a tangible part of the story, even though exactly what it was that was lost is never clearly set out in that work.But the story was drawn irresistibly towards the older world, and became an account, as it were, of its end and passing away before its beginning and middle had been told.
I don't see them as much of an obstacle, scirocco. I think that it would be a natural thing for rustic folk to distort Tirion the Maia into "the Man in the Moon".I've run out of time, and RL is calling, but I wanted to throw this in. Where do the little cameos of the Moon in the "Cat and the Fiddle", and the poem of The Man in the Moon Came Down too Soon, fit into the "Moon As Chariot For A Maiar Spirit" or "Moon As A Lump Of Rock" viewpoints? Both unarguably canon (I wondered how long it would be before we heard that word) and one published very late in Tolkien's life. (And please don't tell me they're nonsense-rhymes without meaning, everything has meaning!
)
Agreed.Edit: Voronwë, please don't let the thread get into a general "what is canon" debate - surely there's enough meat there for another thread. Ta:)
I have to disagree with this, Al. The men of Númenor desperately yearned for Valinor, to their destruction. Even after Númenor's destruction, they still yearned not just for Númenor, but for Aman itself:Alatar wrote:Again, this is a yearning for Númenor that was, not for Aman.Men of Numenorian descent also feel the draw of "the West" over the Sea for their own reasons:
but the exiles on the shores of the sea, if they turned towards the West in the desire of their hearts, spoke of mar-nu-Falmar that was whelmed in the waves, Akallabêth the Downfallen, Atalantë in the Eldarin tongue.
It's about yearning for what has been lost.
And it was lost in the bending of the world.
Among the Exiles many believed that the summit of the Meneltarma, the Pillar of Heaven, was not drowned for ever, but rose again above the waves, a lonely island lost in the great waters; for it had been a hallowed place, and even in the days of Saruon none had defiled it. And some there were of the seed of Eärendil that afterwards sought for it, because it was said among loremasters that the far-sighted men of old could see from the Meneltarma a glimmer of the Deathless Land. For even after the ruin the hearts of the Dúnedain were still set westwards; and though they knew indeed that the world was changed, they said: 'Avallónë is vanished from the Earth and the Land of Aman is taken away, and in the world of this present darkness they cannot be found. Yet once they were, and therefore they still are, in true being and in the whole shape of the world as at first it was devised.'
Death was ever present, because the Numenoreans still, as they had in their old kingdom, and so lost it, hungered after endless life unchanging. Kings made tombs more splendid than houses of the living, and counted old names in therolls of their descent dearer then the names of sons. Childless lords sat in aged halls musing on heraldry; in secret chanbers withered men compouned strong exilers, or in high cold towers asked questions of the stars.