I agree, Prim. He has really done so well with all of this. The more I think about the decisions he made, the more I am impressed with him.
Of course, we would all have been more impressed with Jimmy Carter had his rescue attempt succeeded. Success is impressive in itself. But Carter spent quite a bit of time weakening the CIA, and then had a weak CIA when he needed a strong one. Obama has not made those same mistakes.
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I often feel like I must come across as Howdy Doody, but I truly feel that no president who has been in office since I've been around to notice has ever put lives on the line lightly. FWIW.
Osama bin Laden
Those men were all volunteers. Mr. Obama was not ordering terrified conscripts "over the top".
That is not to say they aren't courageous - they must be. But they have all spent years training for exactly that kind of risk, it is their bread and butter. I bet they all enjoyed it, actually. I would have, if I'd been them.
That is not to say they aren't courageous - they must be. But they have all spent years training for exactly that kind of risk, it is their bread and butter. I bet they all enjoyed it, actually. I would have, if I'd been them.
Dig deeper.
No, they were definitely volunteers, which impresses me even more. They CHOSE to risk it all... really, all... for what they believed was important. No one risked more than they did, that day, whether they enjoyed it or not.
I am humbled by them.
I am humbled by them.
"What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Primula Baggins
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I certainly have no reason to think any president would lightly order people to risk their lives—I wasn't saying Obama was different. The political risks (some involving possible loss of American lives) were real, even if not the same as dropping from a helicopter into bin Laden's compound in the middle of the night, and Obama would have been negligent if he hadn't considered those as well.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
I think he did! I'm beginning to think that some of the criticisms of Obama are directly because he tends to think, and that slows him down.
Maybe being able to react quickly is a good trait in a President. I suspect it is. Obama seems to really weigh everything quite carefully, and that can be good or bad, I suppose. One doesn't really have the luxury of endless time, I would think, if one is commander in chief.
But he did great with this problem. He had to make the decision to move into action mode on this one, now, quite a risk since no one had actually seen OBL at the compound. He had to move quickly, without that data, for fear that OBL would get wind of the danger and move on, which is what appeared to have happened at Tora Bora.
His use of covert ops was a wonderful decision. And I suppose the operation was illegal, but I don't feel one bit bad about that. I do not believe that the Pakistanis were ignorant of OBL's position, and they lied through their collective teeth to us. Pres Obama said in his speech that night something along the lines of "we had always said that we would go in to get him, no matter where he was". Something like that. Sorry, Pakistan, for the inconvenience, but we found him where we found him, and we took him out.
Obama did very well with his decision making. Amazingly well. And of course he took risks, politically, and with many lives not his own. But he, of course, volunteered for his job, too. I'll bet he enjoyed it.
Maybe being able to react quickly is a good trait in a President. I suspect it is. Obama seems to really weigh everything quite carefully, and that can be good or bad, I suppose. One doesn't really have the luxury of endless time, I would think, if one is commander in chief.
But he did great with this problem. He had to make the decision to move into action mode on this one, now, quite a risk since no one had actually seen OBL at the compound. He had to move quickly, without that data, for fear that OBL would get wind of the danger and move on, which is what appeared to have happened at Tora Bora.
His use of covert ops was a wonderful decision. And I suppose the operation was illegal, but I don't feel one bit bad about that. I do not believe that the Pakistanis were ignorant of OBL's position, and they lied through their collective teeth to us. Pres Obama said in his speech that night something along the lines of "we had always said that we would go in to get him, no matter where he was". Something like that. Sorry, Pakistan, for the inconvenience, but we found him where we found him, and we took him out.
Obama did very well with his decision making. Amazingly well. And of course he took risks, politically, and with many lives not his own. But he, of course, volunteered for his job, too. I'll bet he enjoyed it.
"What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
The safest course of action, barring waiting for more data, would have been a drone strike. But then we would have had a very hard time confirming the kill, the wives and children would have died, and we would not have been able to gather up all those documents and thumb drives and so on. Sending in SEALs was more surgical and, ultimately, more merciful. But think of what would have happened if they'd failed. The men would have died or been captured, the US would look incredibly dumb, Al Qaeda would have a morale boost, and we'd still have one cheesed off Pakistan.
I agree that the Pakistani government is not to be trusted. I also get the sense that everybody involved, from the SEALs to the President himself, was going to great lengths to not let on that Something Was Up until they'd passed the point of no return. One of the best ways to keep a secret is to not even let on you have one in the first place.
I think Obama enjoyed the success more than the run-up. I know I would. I also think that Obama is plenty capable of rendering a fast decision when needed. He is, after all, a parent and a dog owner. You don't always have time to be deliberate when kids and pets are involved. But I do think that he's less of a show man than we're used to and that hurts him. Bush flew a plane onto an aircraft carrier to declare the Iraq war a mission accomplished. Obama gave a speech in a White House hallway and released a photo of himself and his team in the Situation Room to declare taking out bin Laden a mission accomplished, except I don't think he used the words "mission accomplished". I also think that we, the general public, sometimes want and need our leaders to look like they're doing something even if our leaders really don't have enough data to go on and really can't make a good decision yet, and, unfortunately, Obama doesn't give us that.
I agree that the Pakistani government is not to be trusted. I also get the sense that everybody involved, from the SEALs to the President himself, was going to great lengths to not let on that Something Was Up until they'd passed the point of no return. One of the best ways to keep a secret is to not even let on you have one in the first place.
I think Obama enjoyed the success more than the run-up. I know I would. I also think that Obama is plenty capable of rendering a fast decision when needed. He is, after all, a parent and a dog owner. You don't always have time to be deliberate when kids and pets are involved.
But I do think that he's less of a show man than we're used to and that hurts him. Bush flew a plane onto an aircraft carrier to declare the Iraq war a mission accomplished. Obama gave a speech in a White House hallway and released a photo of himself and his team in the Situation Room to declare taking out bin Laden a mission accomplished, except I don't think he used the words "mission accomplished". I also think that we, the general public, sometimes want and need our leaders to look like they're doing something even if our leaders really don't have enough data to go on and really can't make a good decision yet, and, unfortunately, Obama doesn't give us that.When you can do nothing what can you do?
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Primula Baggins
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Yes. I think he would have stronger support from the left if most of us had a better idea of just how much he has accomplished on the progressive side of the scale—not just the legislation he signs that gets all the attention, but executive orders, rule changes, appointments, and so on. It adds up to a lot. Not as much as I would like, and there are definitely areas such as what really needs to be done to help the economy (jobs!) where I wish he would make much more of an effort. But he is not George W. Bush II as some claim.
I guess I would rather have substance than style, if I can't have both.
I guess I would rather have substance than style, if I can't have both.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Voronwë the Faithful
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The funny thing is that the "right" seems to have no problem determining how much the president has accomplished on "the progressive* side of the scale."
* Though they, of course, use the term "socialist" instead of "progressive".
* Though they, of course, use the term "socialist" instead of "progressive".
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
Prim just made a lightbulb to shine above my head. Though there was never any question in my mind, it appears Obama's original intention was to take Bin Laden alive. Otherwise they might have opted for: assassination by drone, as they tried in Yemina couple days ago; or by missle, as NATO tried against Gaddafi the day before Bin Laden was killed.Primula Baggins wrote:So does the president, from all I've seen. I don't think he put those lives on the line lightly; I think he knew where the worst risk lay.
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Primula Baggins
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From what I've read, their orders were to kill Bin Laden if he did anything but immediately and abjectly surrender.
Trying to get him out of there alive, even if they hadn't lost a helicopter already, would have entailed huge risks.
Trying to get him out of there alive, even if they hadn't lost a helicopter already, would have entailed huge risks.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
A nicely written student's perspective on the "celebrations" following the announcement of bin Laden's death.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/0 ... ens-death/
And this story about the photo of Obama and his security council watching the raid just blows my mind.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/0 ... to/?hpt=T2
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/0 ... ens-death/
And this story about the photo of Obama and his security council watching the raid just blows my mind.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/0 ... to/?hpt=T2
To: Holbytla
Thanks for the links.
Re the first one, I'm not sure how Bin Laden's death will change this:
As for the doctored photo story, I am interested in knowing why they did it. It's an important story for two reasons: First, there are many who still refuse to believe (or admit) that such Orwellian acts ever happen; and second because they admitted their misstep (is it even against the law?).
To Prim et al.
I didn't know those where their instructions. Thanks.
Well if the Yemen and Lybia acts are any indication, sending in a team is not the usual way of handling these things anymore. Yes it is riskier, but there is less chance for civilians to get hurt; and, apparently, a greater chance of actually bagging the intended target.
Thanks for the links.
Re the first one, I'm not sure how Bin Laden's death will change this:
(Aside: When I graduated the first time around in the early 90's it was pretty much the same situation, minus the "no hope" I guess.)And when we graduate from college, we will emerge overeducated and underprepared into an America with no jobs, no opportunities and no hope. -- Lauren Kolodkin, Special to CNN
As for the doctored photo story, I am interested in knowing why they did it. It's an important story for two reasons: First, there are many who still refuse to believe (or admit) that such Orwellian acts ever happen; and second because they admitted their misstep (is it even against the law?).
To Prim et al.
I didn't know those where their instructions. Thanks.
Well if the Yemen and Lybia acts are any indication, sending in a team is not the usual way of handling these things anymore. Yes it is riskier, but there is less chance for civilians to get hurt; and, apparently, a greater chance of actually bagging the intended target.
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BrianIsSmilingAtYou
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Another version of the picture:Holbytla wrote:A nicely written student's perspective on the "celebrations" following the announcement of bin Laden's death.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/0 ... ens-death/
And this story about the photo of Obama and his security council watching the raid just blows my mind.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/0 ... to/?hpt=T2
BrianIs
AtYou
All of my nieces and nephews at my godson/nephew Nicholas's Medical School graduation. Now a neurosurgical resident at University of Arizona, Tucson.
A good demonstration of the similarity of how orthodoxism in religions leads to similar actions in all religions.Holbytla wrote:And this story about the photo of Obama and his security council watching the raid just blows my mind.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/0 ... to/?hpt=T2
'You just said "your getting shorter": you've obviously been drinking too much ent-draught and not enough Prim's.' - Jude
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Impenitent
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Voronwë the Faithful
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According to the Guardian, there was actually a written agreement with Pakistan going back to late 2001, and then reconfirmed in 2008, that gave the U.S. permission to make an excursion into Pakistan if they knew where Bin Laden was.
Osama bin Laden mission agreed in secret 10 years ago by US and Pakistan
Osama bin Laden mission agreed in secret 10 years ago by US and Pakistan
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."