Same-sex, whole-milk marriage: 50 Shades of Gay

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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Here is a link to an article by bmaz at Firedoglake (liberal blog) that seems knowledgeable about what happens or may happen next. It's the best I've found so far in terms of clarifying the procedure, though it does come with a heapin' helpin' of that well-known liberal bias. I don't know who bmaz is, but he/she seems like at least a knowledgeable observer of the California judicial scene.

There's also a really cool liberal graphic (possibly therefore offensive to some). :)

Excerpts:
And with that, the case now moves on to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. As the DIs have already noticed their appeal, the case is already docketed at the 9th and a presumptive briefing schedule set. Appellant/DIs’ opening brief is due November 12, 2010 and Appellee/Plaintiffs’ answering brief is due December 13, 2010. Appellee/DIs have the option to file a reply brief if they wish (and they would) by December 27, 2010.

So now the question is which three judges will be assigned to the panel that will consider and rule on the appeal, because the makeup of the appellate panel is absolutely critical to the process and potential outcome. There has not yet been a formal panel assigned to the appeal, but just as with the court protocol I used to predict Walker’s decision ahead of time, there is a tradition and protocol generally followed in the 9th Circuit that may give us an idea of the panel that will be deciding this seminal case.

(snip)

So the case now moves on from the meticulous hands of Vaughn Walker and up to the 9th Circuit. First there is the matter of assignment to a panel. Then we will see whether the automatically generated briefing schedule set upon filing stays in place or is accelerated, whether by motion by a party or sua sponte by the court.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Yes, it is certainly true that the automatically generated panel will be critical to the case.

Here is what Walker had to say about the standing issue:
To establish that they have standing to appeal the court’s decision under Article III, Section 2 of the Constitution, proponents must show that they have “suffered an injury in fact, which is fairly traceable to the challenged action and is likely to be redressed by the relief requested.” Didrickson v United States Dept of Interior, 982 F2d 1332, 1338 (9th Cir 1992). Standing requires a showing of a concrete and particularized injury that is actual or imminent. Lujan v Defenders of Wildlife, 504 US 555, 560 (1992). If the state defendants choose not to appeal, proponents may have difficulty demonstrating Article III standing. Arizonans for Official English v Arizona, 520 US 43, 67 (1997).

As official proponents under California law, proponents organized the successful campaign for Proposition 8. Doc #708 at 58-59 (FF 13, 15). Nevertheless, California does not grant proponents the authority or the responsibility to enforce Proposition 8. In Lockyer v City & County of San Francisco, the California Supreme Court explained that the regulation of marriage in California is committed to state officials, so that the mayor of San Francisco had no authority to “take any action with regard to the process of issuing marriage licenses or registering marriage certificates.” 33 Cal 4th 1055, 1080 (2004). Still less, it would appear, do private citizens possess authority regarding the issuance of marriage licenses or registration of marriages. While the court has ordered entry of a permanent injunction against proponents, that permanent injunction does not require proponents to refrain from anything, as they are not (and cannot be) responsible for the application or regulation of California marriage law. See Cal Health & Safety Code § 102180. The court provided proponents with an opportunity to identify a harm they would face “if an injunction against Proposition 8 is issued.” Doc #677 at 7. Proponents replied that they have an interest in defending Proposition 8 but failed to articulate even one specific harm they may suffer as a consequence of the injunction. Doc #687 at 30.

When proponents moved to intervene in this action, the court did not address their standing independent of the existing parties. See Doc #76 at 3; see also Perry v Proposition 8 Official Proponents, 587 F3d 947, 950 n2 (9th Cir 2009). While the court determined that proponents had a significant protectible interest under FRCP 24(a)(2) in defending Proposition 8, that interest may well be “plainly insufficient to confer standing.” Diamond v Charles, 476 US 54, 69 (1986). This court has jurisdiction over plaintiffs’ claims against the state defendants pursuant to 28 USC § 1331. If, however, no state defendant appeals, proponents will need to show standing in the court of appeals. See Arizonans for Official English, 520 US at 67.

Proponents’ intervention in the district court does not provide them with standing to appeal. Diamond, 476 US at 68 (holding that “Diamond’s status as an intervenor below, whether permissive or as of right, does not confer standing to keep the case alive in the absence of the State on this appeal”); see also Associated Builders & Contractors v Perry, 16 F3d 688, 690 (6th Cir 1994) (“The standing requirement * * * may bar an appeal even though a litigant had standing before the district court.”). The Supreme Court has expressed “grave doubts” whether initiative proponents have independent Article III standing to defend the constitutionality of the initiative. Arizonans for Official English, 520 US at 67.

Proponents chose not to brief the standing issue in connection with their motion to stay, and nothing in the record shows proponents face the kind of injury required for Article III standing. As it appears at least doubtful that proponents will be able to proceed with their appeal without a state defendant, it remains unclear whether the court of appeals will be able to reach the merits of proponents’ appeal. In light of those concerns, proponents may have little choice but to attempt to convince either the Governor or the Attorney General to file an appeal to ensure appellate jurisdiction.
There is one other wild card in the standing issue. Imperial County made a motion to intervene in the case as a defendant, and Judge Walker denied that motion. There is, I believe, a separate, related appeal from Imperial County on that ruling. It's possible that that could alter the standing equation.
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

And from the article I linked, the automatically generated panel is not entirely unlikely to rule in favor of gay marriage.

The standing issue is getting a lot of attention, but here's a new twist just emerging:

Will The Right Sacrifice California to Save Marriage Amendments Elsewhere?

(Right Wing Watch, another liberal blog)
Earlier today I posted audio of David Barton talking with Tim Wildmon and Marvin Sanders of the American Family Association about his relationship with Glenn Beck, but now I want to highlight a more important piece of that discussion that occurred later in the interview when they were discussing the Prop 8 ruling.

(snip)
Wildom: So you think the better situation here would be California not to appeal ...

Barton: Well, I'm telling you that that's what is being argued by a lot of folks now because the other Supreme Court attorney who watched this from afar said "on no, you left too many arguments on the table, you stayed technical." And now, knowing what Kennedy has already done in two similar cases to this and knowing that he's the deciding vote, the odds are 999 out of 1000 that they'll uphold the California decision.

If they do, there's not a marriage amendment in the country that can stand. And so the problem is that instead of California losing its amendment, now 31 states lose their amendment. And that won't happen if California doesn't appeal this decision. It's just California that loses its amendment.
So there may be strategic reasons why some on the right would rather not see this decision appealed.

Sorry for the liberal bloggishness of all this, but I'm looking for information from links I know something about, and the MSM news organizations as usual are not quick to post anything substantive.

Edited to fix stoopid quoting
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by Hachimitsu »

This is a bit of what I was concerned about. If it goes to appeal, this could affect more then California (which is what I hope), but if they don't appeal, although they lose California, other states get to keep their anti-gay marriage laws.

So in this case it's best to hope for an appeal right? Unless when it goes to a higher court and they somehow deem prop 8 ok? What are the odds of this going to a higher court and the court saying prop 8 is legal?

(I just hope all this leads to anti gay marriage laws being viewed as unconstitutional.)

*knows next to nothing about the law*
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Well, first of all there already has been an appeal filed, so it is not a question of whether there will be an appeal or not. But that appeal has not been joined by the state of California, and assuming it is not, it might get thrown out on procedural grounds, in which case the decision would only affect California.

But even if it only affects California, it is a very big deal. California is by far the most populous state, and in many ways the most influential. That's why opponents of same sex marriages fought so hard to overturn the initial decision of the California Supreme Court that the previous ban on same sex marriages violated the state's constitution. If same sex marriages are allowed to proceed in California, that will go a long ways towards making it happen in the rest of the country. It just will happen faster if the case is appealed and eventually upheld by the Supreme Court. But that is far from a certainty, and it could provide a huge setback if the case is appealed and the decision is overturned.

So there are reasons to hope that the appeal proceeds, and also reasons to hope that it does not.
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Wilma, if this appeal goes no further, there will be other appeals. This issue will certainly end up in front of the Supreme Court.

I've heard people more knowledgeable than I am say that they hope this one does get to the SC, because Judge Walker's decision is so solid.

Edit: Cross-posted with Voronwë.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by Hachimitsu »

Ok I understand. Thanks so much :)
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Voronwë's right about the influential nature of what happens in California, not just numerically but culturally. Just as it made a difference when nonwhite characters started to appear regularly, outside stereotypes, in TV shows and movies, and just as the same thing seemed to happen when gay characters began to be more than stereotypes, it will make a difference when same-sex married couples start showing up in a matter-of-fact way in popular entertainment.

And, I believe it will make a difference as more and more well-known gay Californians marry and have families. The known is always less scary than the unknown. Imagination has an easier time with examples in front of it.

It won't end anti-gay prejudice any more than I Spy ended racism. But I think it will help.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Primula Baggins wrote:I've heard people more knowledgeable than I am say that they hope this one does get to the SC, because Judge Walker's decision is so solid.
I tend to lean in this direction. But then there are other knowledgable people who say that Judge Walker's decision is particularly vulnerable to be overtuned. And many people or wary of relying on a Supreme Court that veers so far to the right. So it really is a close call.

Personally, I hope that the Ninth Circuit denies the stay and that marriages are allowed to continue, but that they agree to decide the case on the merits. I think that if marriages are ongoing, and it seen that the moral fabric of the state is not crumbling (any more than it has in Massachussetts, Iowa, New Hampshire, etc.), it will make it all the more unlikely that the decision will be reversed. And having recently reread Justice Kennedy's opinions in two fairly recent cases that advanced the rights of gays and lesbians (as well as Justice Scalia's rather scary dissents in those cases), I feel fairly confident in the likelihood that he would remain on the side of further advancing those rights in regards to this issue.
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Post by halplm »

Yes, the will of the vast majority of voters be damned... lets let 10-15 people decide what everyone should think.

So much for marriage.
For the TROUBLED may you find PEACE
For the DESPAIRING may you find HOPE
For the LONELY may you find LOVE
For the SKEPTICAL may you find FAITH
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Post by yovargas »

The will of the majority of voters doesn't always rule in a Constitutional Democracy, as you well know.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Interracial marriage was disapproved by 65% to 70% of respondents in polls at the time of the Loving v. Virginia ruling. We have a constitution at the top of our system for a reason.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I had another thought that I'm going to throw out there, which I hope won't cause too much controversy, but I think is worth considering.

The concept of marriage has evolved considerably over the years. For most of human history marriage has involved a degree of subjugation of women to men. That's not a value judgment, it is a fact. In the U.S. women literally became "legally dead" when they got married. That term was actually used; women had no legal rights whatsoever; everything had to be done through their husband, to whom they literally legally belonged. This lasted well into the 20th century. There has, of course, been tremendous strides away from that conception in the past century, so that it has developed more and more into a situation that marriage is a (usually) monogamous relationship between two (usually) loving individuals with a wide range of different set of roles between the two individuals, ranging from marriages that reflect very traditional gender roles between the two spouses to those involving a very different paradigm. This has reflected other developments in our society in which women have moved closer to equal status with men in and out of the workplace (though much work still needs to be done in that area), as well as economic forces that more and more have required two incomes to maintain a stable family.

This developing conception is a continuing process, and to my mind is one of the strongest arguments against the position that same-sex marriages should be banned because marriage has been traditionally reserved for opposite sex relationships. Surely only a very tiny minority of people would wish to preserve a conception of traditional marriage that involved a woman becoming the literal property of her husband, without even the right to enter into a contract without his permission. Thankfully, that is not going to happen under any circumstances, but in my opinion there is still room for progress in this area; there are still marriages in which woman are subjugated to the will of their husbands in a negative way. There is nothing that I can think of that would separate the conception of marriage from the idea of a woman becoming the property of a man than allowing marriages to include same sex relationships, since such relationships would either not include a woman at all, or not include a man! Quite aside from the issue of the equal rights of lesbians and gays (the importance of which I in no way mean to downplay), no other step could so eloquently indicate that we have successfully moved from a conception of marriage that involved a man owning a woman to a conception that involved an equal partnership between two loving individuals in which they decided how their respective roles would be determined, in which equal respect would be payed to a range of relationships that included a traditional marriage in which a man was the prime breadwinner and a woman focused on maintaining the household and raising the children to a loving couple of any combination of gender raising a family with two working parents struggling to make ends meet (and everything in between, including childless couples). That, to me, is what a marriage should be, and is a part of the debate about same-sex marriages that I have not seen much focus on.

I apologize if anything in this post is offensive to anyone. Such was not my intent.
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Post by Ellienor »

I think that was a very interesting post Sir V.

I don't really think about the history of marriage (although all that you write is true) with regard to the rights/status of women. I am married but my marriage is very much a "modern" marriage. I am the breadwinner. We flex around with our roles quite a bit. I'm very independent. He didn't even go along when I bought my new car six months ago, I'm on the title, the loan is in my name. I got his thumbs up as a courtesy, but that's just the way we work things.

But the idea that you pose that same sex marriage will accelerate this trend is one I agree with. And perhaps that is one reason why conservatives don't like it. I have always been baffled why some people are so against same sex marriage. I hear the arguments and I don't really get it. :scratch: But that helps me understand why some people feel like it would threaten their marriage to have gays/lesbians marry, because gay marriage would weaken the traditional concept of "roles" within a marriage.
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Post by vison »

Voronwë_the_Faithfulsays: " . . . there are still marriages in which woman are subjugated to the will of their husbands in a negative way."

Yes, of course there are. But there are many "living together" arrangements where that is equally true, or more so. I would hazard a guess that it might be MORE common in those relationships, but that is, as I said, only a guess.

One of my favourite authors, Laura Ingalls Wilder, wrote about her own marriage, which took place in the 1880s. She asked the officiating clergyman not to include the vow "to obey", because she was not willing to be obedient at all times, to subdue her will to her husband's.

And our notion of marriage is pretty culture-specific, once you get past the "man/woman" thing.

Marriage is what you make it. The generic "you", not anyone personally.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Voronwë, an interesting post indeed. Not everyone who believes that marriage is one man plus one woman does so because they believe in the traditional roles within marriage; but maybe some who do are threatened by same-sex marriage because they can't even pretend, looking from outside, that those marriages are "traditional." I wonder how many of that subset of gay marriage opponents would be equally threatened if they understood what nontraditional heterosexual marriages are actually like.

Other "family values" some of them espouse include denying child care to poor women, which makes it harder for them to work, and denying contraception to as many women as possible, which makes it harder for them to control their lives. This too can be seen as imposing a "traditional" view of marriage.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by WampusCat »

Great post, V. I agree that legalizing gay marriage could have the effect of shaking loose the vestiges of the wife-as-property mindset. Freely chosen roles make much more sense for a healthy relationship (as well as acknowledging economic and/or individual reality).

Some people, of course, use tradition as an excuse to exercise power and domination. That is unlikely to change. But the general stream of society is moving toward greater equality in relationships, and I suspect you are right that this would be an additional push in that direction.
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Post by Lidless »

Re the earlier spat:

Words. A brilliant means of communication that led to human development sky-rocketing.

Words. Such a poor way to communicate thoughts - subject to misinterpretation, wrong emphasis, and every reader's / listener's association with any word being only an approximation to that of the writer / speaker.

Words. I hate them, but until something better comes along I love them to death.
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Post by JewelSong »

Words!Words! Words!
I'm so sick of words!
I get words all day through;
First from him, now from you!
Is that all you blighters can do?
Don't talk of stars
Burning above;
If you're in love,
Show me!
Tell me no dreams
Filled with desire. If you're on fire,
Show me!
Here we are together in the middle of the night!
Don't talk of spring! Just hold me tight!
Anyone who's ever been in love'll tell you that
This is no time for a chat!
Haven't your lips
Longed for my touch? Don't say how much,
Show me! Show me!
Don't talk of love lasting through time.
Make me no undying vow. Show me now!
Sing me no song! Read me no rhyme!
Don't waste my time, Show me!
Don't talk of June, Don't talk of fall!
Don't talk at all! Show me!
Never do I ever want to hear another word.
There isn't one I haven't heard.
Here we are together in what ought to be a dream;
Say one more word and I'll scream!
Haven't your arms
Hungered for mine?
Please don't "expl'ine,"
Show me! Show me!
Don't wait until wrinkles and lines
Pop out all over my brow,
Show me now!
"Live! Live! Live! Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death!" - Auntie Mame

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Post by Lidless »

Words. Sometimes you wait and wait for the payoff and finally it happens.

I do believe those are lyrics from My Fair Lady.

"You really need to stop copying and pasting word-for-word without citing the source."
JewelSong May 13 2010, HOF.

:D

OK - I'll salmon myself. :P :salmon:
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