Joni Mitchell on Bob Dylan: 'He's a plagiarist'

[solicitr]

Bob is not authentic at all. He's a plagiarist, and his name and voice are fake. Everything about Bob is a deception. We are like night and day, he and I.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/music_b ... -fake.html

[Voronwë the Faithful]

That isn't even worth responding to.

[sauronsfinger]

We do have the body of work from Bob Dylan to judge.
Then we have the body of work from Joni Mitchell.

my two cents --- if Mr. Dylan had never recorded or written a single song after the year 1968, he would still go down as one of the great American song writers of all time.

Joni Mitchell..... not so much.

Criticizing anyone is show biz for changing their name seems really stupid.

[solicitr]

Personally I love Joni's music, and always thought Dylan overrated (obscurity isn't profundity). To me Bob is more period icon than talent. De gustibus non disputandem. But whether her charges have any merit, I have no idea.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

solicitr I'll answer you from my signature (which of course is from Bob):

You’re right from your side
I’m right from mine
We’re both just one too many mornings
An’ a thousand miles behind

[vison]

I know nothing about music at all, just what I like to listen to. I like to listen to Joni Mitchell, and not so much to Bob Dylan.

Joni's life and experiences speak to me, and her songs speak to me, more so than Bob Dylan's.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I like Joni Mitchell's music. I think she is an above-average artist. Bob Dylan is one of the most important artists in the 20th century, and arguably in any century. He has written more great -- and highly original -- songs than any other songwriter that anyone can name. In my opinion the two of them can't even be spoken about in the same sentence.

[solicitr]

Well, opinions of relative merit are indisputable; but for the twentieth century alone I'd have to go with Mahler, Rachmaninoff, Puccini.... you'd really rank Dylan's material with Das Lied von der Erde? In the popular arena there's Gershwin, Berlin, Lennon & McCartney (who, admittedly, were Dylan-influenced), Townshend, Ian Anderson...

And let's not even bring in Mozart or Schubert.

Of course, my tendency is to emphasize music over lyrics, so that's an admitted bias on my part that works against Bob, whose songs, musically, are elementary three-chord stuff; and he never could sing.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Obviously, opinions of the relative value of different artists is completely subjective, and it is difficult if not impossible to compare between such different genres, but in terms of influence and importance, I don't think that there is any question that Dylan is head and shoulders above all of those artists, including Lennon/McCartney (and also including such important 20th century artists as Picasso, Pollack, Hemmingway, Steinbeck, Thomas Mann, T.S. Elliott, etc.)

[solicitr]

"I don't think that there is any question"????

That's a little dogmatic for you, Vor. In my opinion there's nothing in Dylan's catalog can touch 'Eleanor Rigby or 'A Day in the Life'; but your mileage may vary.

[Alatar]

I agree with Soli. In my opinion Dylan simply isn't in the same league as the Beatles. The Beatles changed the way music was made forever. Dylan was an above average folk singer/songwriter, and even in his idiom I'd rank Paul Simon way above him.

But maybe Dylan is more important to Americans. I dunno.

[yovargas]

Of course, my tendency is to emphasize music over lyrics, so that's an admitted bias on my part that works against Bob, whose songs, musically, are elementary three-chord stuff; and he never could sing.

Yup. IMO it's kinda hard to argue that Dylan was a particularly great musician.

Sorry, V-dude.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

"I don't think that there is any question"????

That's a little dogmatic for you, Vor.

Guilty as charged. But I still stand by my position. Dylan's influence reaches beyond music in a way that none of those other artists, even the Beatles, can claim.

Al, Paul Simon is a great, great songwriter, and his voice is obviously world's better than Dylan, and his music is consistently more sophisticated and interesting. Nonetheless I still wouldn't put him remotely in the same category of importance and influence as Dylan.

[yovargas]

Well then, are we talking "influential" or are we talking "good"? Very different things.

[Lalaith]

for Voronwë. Obviously you really like Dylan.

Truthfully, I'm not sure I could name a single song by Dylan. I suppose I'd recognize one if I heard it. (<looks them up> Okay, yeah, I know Blowin' in the Wind.) OTOH, I do know Joni Mitchell. (I didn't read the article, though, so I can't comment on her claims. I'm just more of less commenting on Dylan.)

I've never been a big fan of trying to figure out who influenced music this way and who influenced it that way. Who's more important than who, etc. I'm in the camp of "I like this person. I don't like this person. I recognize this person's songs even if I'm not particularly fond of him/her, etc."

Dylan is one of those artists that I don't even really know. Sorry!

[Alatar]

Dylan's influence reaches beyond music in a way that none of those other artists, even the Beatles, can claim.

I really don't understand how you can support that position. In what way?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Al, I'll let a wiser person than me answer that (from the "Dylan Appreciation Thread" where any who may be interested can read the lyrics of several dozen of Dylan's songs):

What I can say is that he spoke to my generation as no other could. Or did.

I still listen to him. And he's still relevant.

[Lalaith]

I actually have no doubt of that--that he was relevant to many in your generation in a profound way.

[River]

I actually have no doubt of that--that he was relevant to many in your generation in a profound way.

I'd say he still is. A while back a bunch of high school students in Boulder got into some trouble over singing Masters of War before a backdrop of Bush and Cheney.

[Lalaith]

He may be, but he's never been relevant to me--nor to any of my friends. I think he was just really out of our awareness. I'm speaking generally, of course, and for the people in my high school and college. No one I knew, even distantly, listened to him. I think our generation identified more with the music current to our time; if you were a rebel, then you identified with The Cure, Depeche Mode, groups like that. I knew some who loved the Beatles. (I'd have to say that I like them rather well myself.)

I don't know. Obviously, I don't know what I'm talking about. Carry on!